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I used to be a hindu

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Just like there are symptoms of different stages of disease of a patient, there are symptoms of different stages of lust. Symptom of advanced stage of lust is characterized by Homosexual behaviour. Something like a grade 1 student and a grade 8 student.

This doesn't make sense to me. There are heterosexuals that experience much higher levels of sex desire than some homosexuals. Among homosexuals, individuals experience various levels of desire and among heterosexuals individuals experience various levels of desire. It is not black and white. There are even a-sexuals, meaning a complete lack of sexual desire, who identify as 'gay' or 'straight' because of who they fall in love with. This idea of lust levels certainly doesn't apply to them!

Alternatively put, for a homosexual; enjoying heterosexuality is like eating a loaf of bread (less relished) and enjoying homosexuality is like having a pizza (relished more).

I think if you ask a homosexual, they would compare heterosexual activity with mold, not bread. For a gay person, sex with the opposite gender is not simply undesirable, it is repulsive.

A person who is fond of pizza, though does not have a liking for bread (heterosexuality). Still, due to advanced lust, he will eat a bread if there is no opportunity for a pizza; although he will not relish it as much.

This just sounds like men in general ;)
Many examples of heterosexual men that go with other men or animals if there are no available women. This isn't about homosexuality, it's about uncontrolled desire. Homosexuality is something entirely different. However, I would say the story of the 'demons' are an example of uncontrolled desire and not of homosexuality.

So, you are right and I agree that a homosexual will not be interested in bisexuality. However, due to high levels of lust, bisexual behavior will be seen, in the absence of an opportunity. Same is confirmed in the statement "...demons were allured by the illusion of a beautiful woman..."

This applies to everyone, homo, hetero or otherwise. But those who naturally experience sex desire for the same and opposite sex without the pressure of 'no availability' from one or the other are bisexual, not homo or hetero. Just as I, being heterosexual, have zero sex desire for the most beautiful women, a homosexual will have no sex desire for the most gorgeous of the opposite sex. Their experience is exactly the same as heterosexuals. It's bisexuals who naturally experience desire both.[/QUOTE]
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
This doesn't make sense to me. There are heterosexuals that experience much higher levels of sex desire than some homosexuals. Among homosexuals, individuals experience various levels of desire and among heterosexuals individuals experience various levels of desire. It is not black and white.

I am no authority in homosexuality (for sure) and neither you (I think). So, best we stick to the verdicts of transcendental scriptures and not our personal point-of-view.

Lord Brahmā then gave birth to the demons from his buttocks, and they were very fond of sex. Because they were too lustful, they approached him for copulation.

This clearly tells us that homosexuals have higher levels of lust.

There are even a-sexuals, meaning a complete lack of sexual desire, who identify as 'gay' or 'straight' because of who they fall in love with. This idea of lust levels certainly doesn't apply to them!

One falls in 'love' with a person who is satisfying one's senses 'better'. This is lust for sense gratification, not love.

I think if you ask a homosexual, they would compare heterosexual activity with mold, not bread. For a gay person, sex with the opposite gender is not simply undesirable, it is repulsive.

Again, that is a personal POV. I suggest that scriptures should be taken as the final authority "...demons were allured by the illusion of a beautiful woman..."

Besides, I personally know people who are homosexual (at heart), but have a wife and children. So, please do not be under any misconception like: for a gay person, sex with the opposite gender is not simply undesirable, it is repulsive. It is just that he is getting a pizza, so he does not care for a bread-loaf or mold.

This just sounds like men in general ;)
Many examples of heterosexual men that go with other men or animals if there are no available women. This isn't about homosexuality, it's about uncontrolled desire. Homosexuality is something entirely different. However, I would say the story of the 'demons' are an example of uncontrolled desire and not of homosexuality.

High levels of lust is characterized by homosexual behavior. Uncontrolled desire is something different...has more to do with aroused women. High levels of lust is expressed as homosexual behavior. It is high levels of "lusty" desires; which is different from "uncontrolled" desire.

Just as I, being heterosexual, have zero sex desire for the most beautiful women, a homosexual will have no sex desire for the most gorgeous of the opposite sex. Their experience is exactly the same as heterosexuals. It's bisexuals who naturally experience desire both.

Sorry, but this is more of a personal opinion. It contradicts the scriptures. Also, I know persons who are homosexual (at heart) and married with children.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Some homosexuals don´t feel repulsed by the opposite sex, but many do.

About the scripture you are citing, I think it is refering to the asuras that were to lustful, not "homosexuals in general".

Also, I have a (she) friend who is closer to asexuality than anything else, but she has felt lust for both men and women.

Sh rarely feels lust at all, almost never. But the very scarse moments she had, it had been with (mostly) women and in some very strict cases, men.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry, but this is more of a personal opinion. It contradicts the scriptures. Also, I know persons who are homosexual (at heart) and married with children.

My opinions are based on conversations with a lot of people, homo, hetero, bi, asexual and other. It seems to me that you are making a lot of very absolute statements that are your personal opinion. Scripture does not say that homosexuality is a result of higher lust levels. You are basing your opinion on Prabhupada's commentary, not the scripture. That SB quote does not specify anything about homosexuality. It alludes to the fact that the assuras want sex with just about anything and are willing to be aggressive to get what they want. This is not a reflection of homosexual people and I think many would find your assumptions highly offensive.

High levels of lust is characterized by homosexual behavior. Uncontrolled desire is something different...has more to do with aroused women.

High levels are lust are expressed in a great any ways. There are homosexuals who take a life of celibacy, despite their ongoing desires. There are homosexuals who have low levels of lust. There are homosexuals who really are repulsed by the idea of sex with the opposite gender. You are truly speaking as if the world is black and white.

What do you mean about uncontrolled desire having to do with women's arousal?
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
Scriptures clearly say: Lord Brahmā then gave birth to the demons from his buttocks, and they were very fond of sex. Because they were too lustful, they approached him for copulation.

Therefore, homosexuality is an asuric tendency, which characterized by high levels of lust & finds it's expression in homosexuality.

About this she friend whom you mention, her behavior is in-line with the scriptures. "...demons were allured by the illusion of a beautiful woman..."
Here, demons with homosexual tendencies were attracted to a beautiful woman. So, beauty of the woman could be a "trigger" for their lusting for a woman; or, maybe absence of a "submissive" male partner...

Whatever the reason, here too the (she) friend is fond of sex with females to the extent of being an a-sexual. Still, given the "right" circumstances/environment she has felt lust for both men and women.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Scriptures clearly say: Lord Brahmā then gave birth to the demons from his buttocks, and they were very fond of sex. Because they were too lustful, they approached him for copulation.

Therefore, homosexuality is an asuric tendency, which characterized by high levels of lust & finds it's expression in homosexuality.

About this she friend whom you mention, her behavior is in-line with the scriptures. "...demons were allured by the illusion of a beautiful woman..."
Here, demons with homosexual tendencies were attracted to a beautiful woman. So, beauty of the woman could be a "trigger" for their lusting for a woman; or, maybe absence of a "submissive" male partner...

Whatever the reason, here too the (she) friend is fond of sex with females to the extent of being an a-sexual. Still, given the "right" circumstances/environment she has felt lust for both men and women.

Asuras also breathe I am sure. yet you wouldnt say that is an "asuric tendency".

Homosexuality needs no higher levels of lust than heterosexuality. If that was the case, my friend wouldn´t be so close to asexuality.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
The asuras had plenty of males around them, there was no lack. They were simply bedazzled by something more beautiful than Brahma who is probably really attractive.

Brahma was possibly the only one around, so they approached him. If Brahma was a woman, they would have done the same. If Brahma was a dog, they probably would have done the same. The actual scripture does not specify that they approached Brahma because he is male. The only specification is that they are overly lustful and in addition, it convey that the asuras are attracted to both genders. If anything, you should be making an argument about bisexuality, not homosexuality. If the SB then went on to say that same sex attraction is a result of high lust levels, I would agree with you that this is the meaning it wishes to convey. But it does not specify this.

What is your opinion of people who are addicted to sex but are not homosexual? That seems to go against your idea that high lust levels find their expression in homosexual tendencies.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Sh rarely feels lust at all, almost never. But the very scarse moments she had, it had been with (mostly) women and in some very strict cases, men.

DivineKala told me this is defined as demi-sexual rather than a-sexual :)
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I agree that would talk more about bisexuality. But also would add that my bisexual friend is pretty balanced when it comes to sex. He had many chances to lose his virginity before he did and didn´t do it mostly for philosophical and emotional reasons. So as that would seem more accurate, that would also be discarted (although I think your intention wasnt to literaly argue bisexuality needs to necesarily be more lustful Madhuri :D, but still had to clear it up ;) )
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
DivineKala told me this is defined as demi-sexual rather than a-sexual :)

I dont think she cares much about the labels. She attends a asexuality forum that says that having a very low but still existent sex drive qualifies. Honestly, they incredible amount of classification for this things makesm e kinda dizzy :eek:
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I dont think she cares much about the labels. She attends a asexuality forum that says that having a very low but still existent sex drive qualifies. Honestly, they incredible amount of classification for this things makesm e kinda dizzy :eek:

Yeh same!
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
My opinions are based on conversations with a lot of people, homo, hetero, bi, asexual and other. It seems to me that you are making a lot of very absolute statements that are your personal opinion. Scripture does not say that homosexuality is a result of higher lust levels. You are basing your opinion on Prabhupada's commentary, not the scripture. That SB quote does not specify anything about homosexuality. It alludes to the fact that the assuras want sex with just about anything and are willing to be aggressive to get what they want. This is not a reflection of homosexual people and I think many would find your assumptions highly offensive.

I respect your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own. Still, everyones opinion will be coloured by their varying degrees of lust, their nature, mentality etc. Also, your understanding of their opinion will be guided by your levels of lust, nature, mentality etc.

The verdict of scriptures is above the three modes of material nature, so is transcendental and infallible.

What the scriptural verse says is as under, with word-to-word:

devo 'devāñ jaghanataḥ
sṛjati smātilolupān
ta enaḿ lolupatayā
maithunāyābhipedire​

devaḥ — Lord Brahmā; adevān — demons; jaghanataḥ — from his buttocks; sṛjati sma — gave birth; ati-lolupān — excessively fond of sex; te — they; enam — Lord Brahmā; lolupatayā — with lust; maithunāya — for copulation; abhipedire — approached.

Lord Brahmā then gave birth to the demons from his buttocks, and they were very fond of sex. Because they were too lustful, they approached him for copulation.

High levels are lust are expressed in a great any ways. There are homosexuals who take a life of celibacy, despite their ongoing desires. There are homosexuals who have low levels of lust. There are homosexuals who really are repulsed by the idea of sex with the opposite gender. You are truly speaking as if the world is black and white.

What do you mean about uncontrolled desire having to do with women's arousal?

I agree. High levels of lust is expressed in great many ways. Still, the highest expression of lust is sex; and for high lust, it is homosexuality. If some homosexuals have taken to a life of celibacy, they are doing their "sadhna" and are not illusioned that they can have illicit sex and be a religious person at the same time.

Scriptures are not influenced by the modes of material nature, so should be taken as black and white.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
Asuras also breathe I am sure. yet you wouldnt say that is an "asuric tendency".

Homosexuality needs no higher levels of lust than heterosexuality. If that was the case, my friend wouldn´t be so close to asexuality.

Asuras breathing is not any example. The point is that a lot of things happen. That, does not make them scripturally acceptable.

High lust means they enjoy more with same sex, who for obvious reasons can understand them better and satisfy them better than the opposite sex.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
The asuras had plenty of males around them, there was no lack. They were simply bedazzled by something more beautiful than Brahma who is probably really attractive.

Brahma was possibly the only one around, so they approached him. If Brahma was a woman, they would have done the same. If Brahma was a dog, they probably would have done the same. The actual scripture does not specify that they approached Brahma because he is male. The only specification is that they are overly lustful and in addition, it convey that the asuras are attracted to both genders. If anything, you should be making an argument about bisexuality, not homosexuality. If the SB then went on to say that same sex attraction is a result of high lust levels, I would agree with you that this is the meaning it wishes to convey. But it does not specify this.

What is your opinion of people who are addicted to sex but are not homosexual? That seems to go against your idea that high lust levels find their expression in homosexual tendencies.

Yes...maybe there was no passive partner. So, they approached Brahmā first. Later the beautiful woman.

People who are addicted to sex are seeking kind of 'continuous' pleasure I would say. It is like adding fuel to fire...which will increase their lust...then they will slowly start engaging in sex in wrong styles. Slowly, if not in this life, in the next, they will turn homosexual. That is my take and a personal opinion.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
What the scriptural verse says is as under, with word-to-word:

Lord Brahmā then gave birth to the demons from his buttocks, and they were very fond of sex. Because they were too lustful, they approached him for copulation.

This word for word has already been demonstrated. My point is that the word for word does not lead to a conclusion that homosexuality is an expression of high lust levels. High lust levels, as I already mentioned, are observed in life to be expressed in a great many ways. And as I already said, there are homosexuals who experience a very low level of sex desire compared to other people, heterosexual included. Therefore, how can I possibly interpret this verse to mean what you say it means?

This verse, word for word, says nothing about homosexuality. Since homosexuality is defined by its express desire for same sex copulation (meaning also a lack of desire for opposite sex copulation), the story in fact says nothing about homosexuality. All it is completely clear about, if we take it word for word, is that the asuras a highly lustful and forceful and tried to have sex with the first thing they saw.

Your saying that high sex desire is expressed as homosexual tendency is not at all mentioned in this verse and I do not know how you can arrive at that conclusion based on the verse alone. It is not even a literal interpretation. So when, as below, you say we must take the verse in a black and white meaning, you are not even doing that here. You are interpreting.

Scriptures are not influenced by the modes of material nature, so should be taken as black and white.

I don't think they are intended to be taken black and white or even always literal. There are so many stories full of layers of meaning that are not always obvious at first glance.

The scriptures may be infallible, but we are not and so our ability to perceive real meaning is often clouded.
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes...maybe there was no passive partner. So, they approached Brahmā first. Later the beautiful woman.

People who are addicted to sex are seeking kind of 'continuous' pleasure I would say. It is like adding fuel to fire...which will increase their lust...then they will slowly start engaging in sex in wrong styles. Slowly, if not in this life, in the next, they will turn homosexual. That is my take and a personal opinion.

The asuras then were not homosexual and therefore I think it is wrong to assume the verse is making a point about homosexuality.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
This word for word has already been demonstrated. My point is that the word for word does not lead to a conclusion that homosexuality is an expression of high lust levels. High lust levels, as I already mentioned, are observed in life to be expressed in a great many ways. And as I already said, there are homosexuals who experience a very low level of sex desire compared to other people, heterosexual included. Therefore, how can I possibly interpret this verse to mean what you say it means?

This verse, word for word, says nothing about homosexuality. Since homosexuality is defined by its express desire for same sex copulation (meaning also a lack of desire for opposite sex copulation), the story in fact says nothing about homosexuality. All it is completely clear about, if we take it word for word, is that the asuras a highly lustful and forceful and tried to have sex with the first thing they saw.

Your saying that high sex desire is expressed as homosexual tendency is not at all mentioned in this verse and I do not know how you can arrive at that conclusion based on the verse alone. It is not even a literal interpretation. So when, as below, you say we must take the verse in a black and white meaning, you are not even doing that here. You are interpreting.

I have given the word to word translation, which if read and taken literally, is the same in essence as the translation provided.

If you want to believe what many persons have told you, then their modes of nature (in expressing) and your modes of nature (in understanding) will both be an obstacle...like a colored glass through which you will see only a colored reality. Not the real reality.

Also, conditioned souls have the following four defects:

(1) is sure to commit mistakes, (2) is invariably illusioned, (3) has the tendency to cheat others and (4) is limited by imperfect senses. With these four imperfections, one cannot deliver perfect information.

If you still want to believe the opinion of others, and not the scriptures, it is fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. So let us not fight over it.

Really? So what happens when you read different scriptures and they seem to contradict one another? What happens when one spiritual master contradicts another? Whose version of black and white interpretation is correct?

The scriptures are classified to raise one's level of consciousness from tamasik, to rajasic, to satavik, to transcendental. So, there could be apparent differences in the scriptures, but there are no contradictions.

The scriptures may be infallible, but we are not and so our ability to perceive real meaning is often clouded.

I agree. Our understanding of the scriptures is influenced by the modes of nature we have acquired. A person with a red glass will see the world as red. One with green, will see the world as green.

That is why, to understand the scriptures and their real meaning, surrender to a spiritual master, in the authorized disciplic succession is recommended in the scriptures itself. A spiritual master, not covered by material modes of nature of a conditioned soul, can deliver to you the real import of scripures.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
The asuras then were not homosexual and therefore I think it is wrong to assume the verse is making a point about homosexuality.

The asuras were highly lustful, therefore, they were homosexual. Upon not finding a suitable same-sex-partner, they turned to the opposite-sex. If I am crazy for pizza, still, I have bread because of absence of pizza, that does not mean that I am not pizza-crazy.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I have given the word to word translation, which if read and taken literally, is the same in essence as the translation provided.

If you want to believe what many persons have told you, then their modes of nature (in expressing) and your modes of nature (in understanding) will both be an obstacle...like a colored glass through which you will see only a colored reality. Not the real reality.

Also, conditioned souls have the following four defects:

(1) is sure to commit mistakes, (2) is invariably illusioned, (3) has the tendency to cheat others and (4) is limited by imperfect senses. With these four imperfections, one cannot deliver perfect information.

If you still want to believe the opinion of others, and not the scriptures, it is fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. So let us not fight over it.

I hope you realise that what you have said applies to you as well. I also hope your offensive use of words is unintentional. Your wording is highly patronising and offensive VD. You are asserting that your opinion is right and mine is wrong. I do not believe that I am basing my opinion on what others have told me. I'm using the best logic I can manage. You are deriving a different meaning than I am, for whatever reason.

I will not again repeat that the word for word translation says nothing about homosexuality.

That is why, to understand the scriptures and their real meaning, surrender to a spiritual master, in the authorized disciplic succession is recommended in the scriptures itself. A spiritual master, not covered by material modes of nature of a conditioned soul, can deliver to you the real import of scripures.

And yet different legitimate gurus say different things about the same scriptures. But let's not play 'my guru is better than your guru'.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
The asuras were highly lustful, therefore, they were homosexual. Upon not finding a suitable same-sex-partner, they turned to the opposite-sex. If I am crazy for pizza, still, I have bread because of absence of pizza, that does not mean that I am not pizza-crazy.

I think you are using a different definition of homosexuality to the rest of the world.

And don't forget, they did have same sex partners available- each other. They preferred the woman.
 
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