I used to be a hindu

[Wannabe Yogi]

Secondly, what is written is "Where you will find differences between S’ruti, Smriti and Purânas, accept the words of the S’rutis as final proofs."

Sruti is seen as given by God. It is not edited or tampered with. Smriti is from men they can and are edited and changed. This question is about like asking were does it say you have to follow Christ to call your self a Christian. To be Orthodox school of thought you must believe in Vedas. This is not true with Puranas.

 

[willy1590]

people people,can we not just accept it and let it go!

 

[Vrindavana Das]

In Jayamangala (12 century) commentary on the Kama Sutra he states "Citizens with this kind of homosexual inclination, who renounce women and can do without them willingly because they love one another, get married together, bound by a deep and trusting friendship."

The Kama Sutra also talks about svairini or lesbians

We are talking of acceptance of homosexuality in Hindu religion (scriptures). Please note Kamasutra is not a religious text. Also, from what you have posted, nowhere does Kamasutra affirm that homosexuality is acceptable in Hindu religious scriptures.

To clarify: Scriptures may say something like 'demons loot and plunder innocent citizens'. This is a statement and in no way can be read as 'as per scriptures, for demons, it is *acceptable* to loot and plunder.

I personally saw a carving of a sadhu giving somebody a blow job, And two women going down on each other in Bhubaneswar. I have have also seen it in Khajuraho and I have read about Gwalior and Bagali, Karnataka with gay carvings on their temple. All of this is really well documented.

Please go through:NGUYÊN H

I give you an excerpt:

Dr. Devangana Desai points out that there is a misunderstanding regarding representation of homosexuality in Khajuraho sculptures. It is not depicted in Khajuraho sculptures. There are two sculptures mistaken as gay figures:

1. The much talked about scene, often misunderstood as depicting lesbian love, is the head-down sculpture on the north wall of the Vishvanatha temple of the site. The top figure whose back is seen in the panel looks like a woman, but is actually a man, whose genitals can be seen from below. The figure is mistaken for a woman because of the hair tied in a bun at the back, which was a male hair style prevalent in medieval India.

1. The other, often misunderstood sculpture is on the south wall of the Devi Jagadamba temple. Here a bearded Shaiva (Kapalika) ascetic threatens a nude Kshapanaka monk to join his religious order, by holding his organ and raising his other hand to hit him. The monk is shown with folded hands as if surrendering. These figures represent two characters of the allegorical play Prabodhachandrodaya, staged in the Khajuraho region in the 11th century. There is no gay relationship involved in the sculptural scene.

Hope this would dispel some doubts about acceptance of homosexuality in hindu scriptures.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Sruti is seen as given by God. It is not edited or tampered with. Smriti is from men they can and are edited and changed. This question is about like asking were does it say you have to follow Christ to call your self a Christian. To be Orthodox school of thought you must believe in Vedas. This is not true with Puranas.

I request you to carefully read and try to understand the explanation given to the statement:

"Where you will find differences between S’ruti, Smriti and Purânas, accept the words of the S’rutis as final proofs."

Asides, if your logic is it *can* happen, then anything can happen. Bible, Quran, Vedas...all scriptures *can* be a piece of fiction by novelists of their times; so we should not believe them.

If you are making a definitive claim like they *are* edited and changed, please also provide the proof.

 

[Shântoham]

Easy enough... adoption, surrogate motherhood, but adoption especially. A little different than a mother/father relationship, but workable nontheless to raise a child as Hindu.

pranām Jaynarayan

Adoption won’t do the (male) child must be from the parents. IVF and surrogate motherhood are acceptable.
Sooo, Jaynarayan, what do YOU plan to do about it?
(…just kidding…)

 

[Shântoham]

Can infertile couples be Hindu?

pranām Twilight

Perhaps I was a bit too synthetic in my last post. All are welcome in Hinduism – and that is what makes Hinduism so encompassing. Nevertheless, gay Hindus and infertile Hindu couples will have to deal with the issue of pitṛ ṛṇa. And that is the reason why I raised the issue. Not to condemn but to raise awareness of the issue.
The Manusmṛti, for example, encourages infertile couples to adopt from a relative.
Hindus are expected to fulfill the householder stage of life, so it’s okay to use medicine to bring about family life.
Many Hindus accept IVF, AIH and even AID. In IVF and AIH the egg and sperm are from the parents – therefore the child will still be their own.
But some orthodox Hindus do NOT allow AID, egg donation or surrogacy because they believe that caste is passed through the parents. Using these methods, a child could be a different caste to the parents (probably lower).
IVF involves fertilizing more than one egg. Extra embryos are either thrown away or used for experiments. Some Hindus believe that once an embryo has been created, it is alive. It would be wrong to kill it.
Some Hindus see AID and egg donation as a form of adultery. And adultery is banned in Hinduism.
It is not only gay Hindus and infertile Hindu couples that have to deal with the issue of pitṛ ṛṇa… I have to deal with it as well. As a lifelong brahmacārin I haven’t yet repaid my debt. :namaste

 

[Shântoham]

Oh you evil adharmic person you! We have 5, and it appears at this stage that only one of the 5 will be producing progeny, but 2 are still more or less in the 'haven't decided yet' category.

pranām Vinayaka

What is the Śaiva’s take on the panca ṛṇa?

 

[Jainarayan]

pranām Jaynarayan

Adoption won’t do the (male) child must be from the parents. IVF and surrogate motherhood are acceptable.
Sooo, Jaynarayan, what do YOU plan to do about it?
(…just kidding…)

Well, I'm past the point of raising a family; I have two dogs and a cat. If really pressed, I could probably force myself to father a child. It would probably have to be preceded by a two day marathon of Law & Order SVU, NCIS and Vin Diesel movies.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

It is said that a brahmachari burns away the sins of the ancestors - elevating them in heaven, and clears the way for the other descendents of the family.

 

[Jainarayan]

As a lifelong brahmacārin I haven’t yet repaid my debt. :namaste

This brings up interesting points for me, not anything to dwell or meditate on, but interesting. This is why I believe there are alternate timelines in other universes, or even shadow/parallel universes within our own:

1. I was a teenager when I became interested in Hinduism
2. I knew even as a Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian I would probably not marry; I subconsciously knew I am gay. I seriously entertained the idea of entering an EO monastery.
3. I was 38 years old when I came out as gay.
4. If I had embraced Hinduism in my earlier years, when I was "searching", I might very likely have taken a brahmacārin vow. If I had my druthers, or God forbid something should happen to my partner, that is the direction I would take.

 

[Vinayaka]

pranām Vinayaka

What is the Śaiva’s take on the panca ṛṇa?

Please explain what panca rna is. I'm not good at Sanskrit.

 

[Jainarayan]

Five debts. Pitru rina is paternal debt.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I'm only familiar with 3 debts (ancestors, gods, rishis) What're the other two?

 

[Jainarayan]

I was lucky to find the one.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have no financial debt. Does that count?

 

[Jainarayan]

I found this:

Debt to the material cosmos.
Debt to fellow human beings.
Debt to ancestors.
Debt to the Vedic sages.
Debt to the God.

As soon as Shântoham pops in, he'll know.

 

[Shântoham]

Please explain what panca rna is. I'm not good at Sanskrit.

pranām Vinayaka

Sorry, I didn’t mean to put you on the spot. Like Jaynarayan said, the panca ṛṇa are the five debt we are all born with: 1) Debt to the ancestors — to whom we owes our very existence, 2) Debt to the Devas — who provide through nature the means of our subsistence, 3) Debt to the Ṛṣis — who provided the moral basis of society through the Vedas, and showed the way to Liberation, 4) Debt to other members of society of which we are an integral part, 5) Debt to the environment — and all the animals — all of which are part of our elaborate eco-system which keeps us alive

 

[Vinayaka]

So I assume than that on this discussion (I will not be drawn back into the homophobic bit) the single duty or debt referred to is to produce progeny. To answer from a personal POV, then, I see these sorts of things as tools, not rules, and don't take them as hard and fast. They were written in an agrarian era when life was much different. There are tons of people on our planet today that would and do make very unsuitable parents. It would be their dharma, or duty, once they realise how unfit they are, to purposely not have children. That's how much times have changed. Alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, wandering eyes, greed, are all signs of the times. Now is now, and than was then. The rules (tools, I should say) of the road have changed.

Since I had 4 more than I needed to fulfill this, I'll symbolically transfer any 4 of them to the first 4 gay men here who volunteer, and next time somebody asks, you can say Vinayaka fathered a son for you, so you don't need to.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste Shantoham-ji

What is the source for #s 4 and 5?

 

[Jainarayan]

I can't see how these debts can't be on-going in life, and can possibly be paid in one lifetime, if at all. With the possible exception of pitr rna. Perhaps they are there to actually prod us along in being good boys and girls in life.

TMI: I was actually once asked if I would... um... donate... but I demurred after I thought about the possible 18 years of child support (contracts can be broken). Though it would have probably satisfied one of my other long term karmic debts. Cheap is expensive in the long run.