I need some help with the Apostasy.

[PetShopBoy88]

I'm following you.

This whole thing kind of saddens me, though.

Why is that?

 

[PetShopBoy88]

How is the Great Apostasy different form let's say:

1. Heresy - a movement from within the walls of the Church that willfully deviates from a true teaching.
2. Schism - usually always involves high ranking officials (bishops) who break union from the Church on various grounds. (involves various heretical views).

It has always been my understanding that the the Great Apostasy delt with the complete loss of authority. If you have no authority, there is no way to bind what is or isn't true.

I had never thought of that, but that definitely makes sense. (Is there a thumbs up emoticon?)

 

[PetShopBoy88]

If Christ has been given authority and Christ has never left us...how could there ever have been a loss of authority? I know that we view the church differently but I just don't understand if authority is ultimately Christ's...and Christ has always been with us...how could it have been lost?

A good comparison that I have thought up for this is thinking of Christ as Knowledge and Authority as, well, authority. Let's say I go to law school and graduate with honours. This knowledge of law is like Christ. This knowledge will never leave me (even if I choose not to use it occaisionally or even frequently). On the other hand, in order to use this knowledge, I have to pass the bar in my state. This is like Christ's authority. Sure, He is still with us, but we can't act in his name without "certification".

 

[dawny0826]

A good comparison that I have thought up for this is thinking of Christ as Knowledge and Authority as, well, authority. Let's say I go to law school and graduate with honours. This knowledge of law is like Christ. This knowledge will never leave me (even if I choose not to use it occaisionally or even frequently). On the other hand, in order to use this knowledge, I have to pass the bar in my state. This is like Christ's authority. Sure, He is still with us, but we can't act in his name without "certification".

I'm following you but I think my ultimate question is this...

Is there a "correct" church that we should be a part of? Are Christians really supposed to be Catholic?

Are Protestant churches less of churches because they're not part of the Catholic church?

I've just been questioning if I am where I'm supposed to be, here of late. Is it sinful in God's eyes to not be Catholic? If the message of salvation is consistent between most if not all Christian faiths...that Christ is the way to salvation...I just have a hard time understanding why any singular church is "correct".

There's been a freedom in worshipping in a Pentecostal church because there are no formalities at all. The whole topic of apostasy has just made me question what Christ thinks about the churches that I've attended throughout my life. Does Christ see fault in the religion that I've chosen?

 

[Bishka]

. Does Christ see fault in the religion that I've chosen?

I don't believe so, but I'm not Christ, so I cannot answer that for you, only He can.

 

[PetShopBoy88]

I'm following you but I think my ultimate question is this...

Is there a "correct" church that we should be a part of? Are Christians really supposed to be Catholic?

If anything, I think Easter Orthodox would be the one who "has it right". But, I don't know for sure. If there IS a correct church, you should be a part of it. They would be the only one who has the authority to do things in God's name, the only one that God "endorses", so to speak.

I've just been questioning if I am where I'm supposed to be, here of late. Is it sinful in God's eyes to not be Catholic?

That's something you would have to talk to God about.

If the message of salvation is consistent between most if not all Christian faiths...that Christ is the way to salvation...I just have a hard time understanding why any singular church is "correct".

Is it really that "consistent"? I personally don't think so. I see a lot of division between the different denominations. A LOT. Maybe that's because I tend to be more cynical than optimistic, though. God is God. IMHO, He cares about the differences. It's not just "close enough" for him. It has to be right.

 

[dawny0826]

If anything, I think Easter Orthodox would be the one who "has it right". But, I don't know for sure. If there IS a correct church, you should be a part of it. They would be the only one who has the authority to do things in God's name, the only one that God "endorses", so to speak.

That's something you would have to talk to God about.

Is it really that "consistent"? I personally don't think so. I see a lot of division between the different denominations. A LOT. Maybe that's because I tend to be more cynical than optimistic, though. God is God. IMHO, He cares about the differences. It's not just "close enough" for him. It has to be right.

And this is precisely why I've been concerned here of late. I often wonder what the Catholic and Orthodox views are pertaining to the salvation of non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christians. I mean...I don't doubt for a minute that we worship the very same Christ but according to "the church"...are other Christians LESSER?

I don't know. But I have been praying about it. I'm just clinging to John 3:16.

 

[PetShopBoy88]

And this is precisely why I've been concerned here of late. I often wonder what the Catholic and Orthodox views are pertaining to the salvation of non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christians. I mean...I don't doubt for a minute that we worship the very same Christ but according to "the church"...are other Christians LESSER?

I don't know. But I have been praying about it. I'm just clinging to John 3:16.

Don't forget John 14:15 with that, though.

 

[nutshell]

And James 1:5

That's the scripture that got Joseph Smith started.

 

[dawny0826]

Don't forget John 14:15 with that, though.

I'm doing the best I can. It's a day to day thing.:yes:

 

[Bishka]

And James 1:5

That's the scripture that got Joseph Smith started.

Defintley would check that scripture out Dawny. It's helped me too.

 

[Bishka]

Dawny,

In my experience, the best thing to do would check out the other Churches, check out what they teach and preach and see if it rings right with your soul -- if not, move on. Find what you know to be true.

 

[PetShopBoy88]

Dawny,

In my experience, the best thing to do would check out the other Churches, check out what they teach and preach and see if it rings right with your soul -- if not, move on. Find what you know to be true.

Find out the truthiness of the them. Trust your gut. :lol:

 

[Bishka]

Find out the truthiness of the them. Trust your gut. :lol:

Are you joking?

Sorry, my humor-o-meter isn't on tonight.:sorry1:

 

[verita]

This is open to all Christians or anyone who has Bible knowledge.

I understand the definition of the term "apostasy" but honestly, prior to joining RF...I had never really heard of "apostasy" before.

I truly know very little on the subject. I extend my apologies if this has been discussed over and over again and I'm not going to be offended if it's preferred to post links to other threads that have already touched on this subject.

I'm especially curious what the Protestant viewpoint is of apostasy. Do most Protestant or Protestant-type denominations view the apostasy as an actual event that has or will take place or is apostasy just a term that most accept as a falling away from one's faith?

What about other Christian faiths?

Thanks.:hug:

APOSTASY

First we look at the meaning of Apostasy.

Encarta Encyclopedia
Apostasy (Greek apostasia, “insurrection”), the total abandonment of Christianity by a baptized person.

Weymouth New Testament
2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

Modern King James Version
2Th 2:3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

So Apostasy means abandonment of a baptized Christian or falling away. This happened in the first century Christian’s church. It is also happening in the true church during our time.

Why will the baptized Christian abandon Christianity or their Church? Here are some reasons…

1. Other members of the True Church who received the Doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ did not faithfully abide by it.
Rom 10:3 For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

2. Others have undergone the whole process of indoctrination and were baptized but their real intention is to spy.
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

3. Christians of today were formerly Gentiles. Although their sins were already cleaned by water in baptism some did not leave their former life. Because of that they become alienated from God.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

4. Some were deceived by other false prophet as prophesize by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That is why our Lord Jesus Christ ask Saint John to write down the Book of Revelation and send it to the seven churches in Asia to warn the remaining members.
Rev 1:11 saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. Also, What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Please read the Book of Revelation Chapters 2 and 3. You will find out why some members of the the seven churches in Asia abandoned the church of God.

What happened to the first century Christian will happen also to the Christians in the final days.
Ecc 3:15 That which has been is now; and that which is to be has already been; and God requires that which is past.


God bless you.

 

[PetShopBoy88]

Are you joking?

Sorry, my humor-o-meter isn't on tonight.:sorry1:

It was a reference to The Colber Report. It wasn't meant to belittle what you were saying or anything. Your post just reminded me of it.

 

[Katzpur]

I think much of my confusion stems from my perceptions of the church. I've always believed that the authority rests in the church because the church is comprised of believers. Authority is found in Christ. Christ is found within the believer. And as such, the believer has a measure of authority that cannot be lost.

I think that perspective is very common among Protestants, Dawn, particularly the more conservative ones. The Apostle Paul, however, explained why the specific organization Christ established is so important. He also explained what the consequences would be if the authority Jesus gave to His Apostles were to rest equally in the hands of all believers. Here (from Ephesians 4:11-14) is how he put it:

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive…”

I would be interested in hearing you put these four verses in your own words. Here is how I interpret them:

Christ gave us prophets and apostles, pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc. Their purpose would be to help His followers become more perfect, to minister to them, and to teach them, so that they will eventually become fully mature in Christ. This organization should remain in effect until we are all unified in our faith and knowledge of Christ. Othewise, we would be like children, taught many conflicting doctrines and not knowing which ones to believe, being influenced by cunning and crafty men whose goal it is to deceive them.

Many churches have pastors, evangelists and teachers. But as Ephesians 2:20 states, Christ's Church was "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." What happens to any structure if the foundation crumbles? The structure itself falls. Prophets and Apostles are just as essential now as they were when Christ built His Church on them.

I've pondered a lot lately on what the apostasy means because I've questioned if those who originally broke away from the Catholic church were justified in their actions. There's just so much that makes sense from so many Christian denominations and I just thank God that I have salvation in Christ.

You know where I stand on this issue, Dawn. I believe that an apostasy was prophesied by the Apostles, particulary by Paul. He believed it would take place and that it was beginning to do so during his own lifetime. He went so far as to say that Christ would not return until it had taken place. He also prophesied of a restoration. I believe that restoration has taken place.

God isn't the author of confusion, so I wonder why there's so much that I find confusing, know what I mean?

You're right. He's not. But the confusion is what Paul explained would prevail if the foundation Christ built His Church on should cease to exist.

If I have everything else wrong...I can trust that I'm still found in Him.

God bless, Dawny. If anybody is found in Him, you are.

 

[Bishka]

It was a reference to The Colber Report. It wasn't meant to belittle what you were saying or anything. Your post just reminded me of it.

No, no, don't worry, I'm a bit out of it, my husband may have caught the reference, but I have not seen the show before.

 

[dawny0826]

And James 1:5

That's the scripture that got Joseph Smith started.

Thank you. I just circled that one.

 

[James the Persian]

And this is precisely why I've been concerned here of late. I often wonder what the Catholic and Orthodox views are pertaining to the salvation of non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christians. I mean...I don't doubt for a minute that we worship the very same Christ but according to "the church"...are other Christians LESSER?

I don't know. But I have been praying about it. I'm just clinging to John 3:16.

I can answer this from the point of view of the Orthodox. We often say that we know where the salvation is (in the Church) but not where it is not. We don't seek to put limits on who God can and cannot save and leave it entirely in His hands. We do, therefore, think that it is perfectly possible for Christians outside the Orthodox Church to be saved (and we don't consider Rome to be apostate, by the way). We do not believe that the Church can be divided, however, so any group outside the Orthodox communion is not considered a part of the Church but this has no direct impact on an individual's salvation. The only indirect impact might be on the fact that all groups outside of the Church have teachings that are different from the truth in some way and so could lead a genuine believer astray, but we don't believe in a God who will punish people for honest mistakes (actually we don't believe that much in a God who punishes as in the western model at all). Our general take on salvation is that nobody knows who will be saved apart from God. Nobody is actually saved in this life either so there can be no assurance of salvation for anyone, inside or outside the Church. We must all persevere to the end to have hope of salvation.

James