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I need some help with the Apostasy.

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
This is open to all Christians or anyone who has Bible knowledge.

I understand the definition of the term "apostasy" but honestly, prior to joining RF...I had never really heard of "apostasy" before.

I truly know very little on the subject. I extend my apologies if this has been discussed over and over again and I'm not going to be offended if it's preferred to post links to other threads that have already touched on this subject.

I'm especially curious what the Protestant viewpoint is of apostasy. Do most Protestant or Protestant-type denominations view the apostasy as an actual event that has or will take place or is apostasy just a term that most accept as a falling away from one's faith?

What about other Christian faiths?

Thanks.:hug:
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I found this:-
http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=1870
Useful..........(Just an exerpt)
Apostate: One who has forsaken the faith
Episcopacy: Government of the church by bishops
Next October 7-9 The American Anglican Council will meet in Dallas. Although the meeting was organized by two Episcopalian dioceses (Dallas and Fort Worth), thousands of Episcopalians and Anglicans from all over the world will attend. It is likely that the Council will declare the Episcopalian Church is in heresy.
Why is everyone so excited? Unless you live in an area without TV or newspapers, you know that the General Convention of Episcopal Church, USA, has ratified the appointment of Gene Robinson, an openly homosexual man, as Bishop of the New Hampshire Diocese. Robison left wife and two children to live a homosexual lifestyle. As an Episcopal priest he has lived for over ten years in a homosexual relationship with the knowledge and approval of the leaders of his church.
Like all Protestant churches, the Episcopal Church started out as an evangelical organization, although it is the Protestant denomination that is closest to the Roman Catholic Church in its theology and liturgy. Over the years, it became more and more liberal, drifting away from its Biblical roots.
To put things in perspective, let me offer a short history of the Episcopal Church, USA. You can study this further by following the links at the end of this article. I gathered the information for this history from those websites and from interviews with both Episcopalian and Anglican priests.
The Church of England was brought to the United States by English settlers in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. After the American Revolution the name became a problem for obvious reasons, so it was changed to the Protestant Episcopal Church, which eventually became known as the Episcopal Church, USA (ECUSA).

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01624b.htm

The word itself in its etymological sense, signifies the desertion of a post, the giving up of a state of life; he who voluntarily embraces a definite state of life cannot leave it, therefore, without becoming an apostate. Most authors, however, distinguish with Benedict XIV (De Synodo di£cesanâ, XIII, xi, 9), between three kinds of apostasy: apostasy a Fide or perfidi£, when a Christian gives up his faith; apostasy ab ordine, when a cleric abandons the ecclesiastical state; apostasy a religione, or monachatus, when a religious leaves the religious life. The Gloss on title 9 of the fifth book of the Decretals of Gregory IX mentions two other kinds of apostasy: apostasy inobedientiæ, disobedience to a command given by lawful authority, and iteratio baptismatis, the repetition of baptism, "quoniam reiterantes baptismum videntur apostatare dum recedunt a priori baptismate". As all sin involves disobedience, the apostasy inobedientiæ does not constitute a specific offense. In the case of iteratio baptismatis, the offence falls rather under the head of heresy and irregularity than of apostasy; if the latter name has sometimes been given to it, it is due to the fact that the Decretals of Gregory IX combine into one title, under the rubric "De apostatis et reiterantibus baptisma" (V, title 9) the two distinct titles of the Justinian Code: "Ne sanctum baptisma iteretur" and" De apostatis " (I, titles 6, 7), in Corpus juris civilis ed. Krueger, (Berlin, 1888); II 60-61. See München "Das kanonische Gerichtsverfahren und Strafrecht" (Cologne, 1874), II, 362, 363. Apostasy, in its strictest sense, means apostasy a Fide (St. Thomas, Summa theologica, II-II, Q. xii a. 1).
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Thanks, Michel!

And Becky, of course I want to hear. I'm trying to get a good understanding of how different Christians view apostasy. :)
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
Thanks, Michel!

And Becky, of course I want to hear. I'm trying to get a good understanding of how different Christians view apostasy. :)

I'll give you a short rundown as I'm on a computer that doesn't run very well and I hope Kathryn can get in here and explain it more.

As Ltter-day Saints we believe the power of the preisthood was taken from the earth when the last of Christ's apostles died. Note, not the Light of Christ, but the Preisthood and that is was gone from the earth until it was restored to Joseph Smith in (oh gosh darn, I can't remember the year now!)

That's a real simple basic rundown, I'm hoping to make a powerpoint on that soon - actually.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
beckysoup61 said:
I'll give you a short rundown as I'm on a computer that doesn't run very well and I hope Kathryn can get in here and explain it more.

As Ltter-day Saints we believe the power of the preisthood was taken from the earth when the last of Christ's apostles died. Note, not the Light of Christ, but the Preisthood and that is was gone from the earth until it was restored to Joseph Smith in (oh gosh darn, I can't remember the year now!)

That's a real simple basic rundown, I'm hoping to make a powerpoint on that soon - actually.

Kathryn has mentioned this before in different posts, I just haven't retained much info. :eek:

Groovy. Well, that's cool. I was kind of right on in my understanding of how the LDS church views the apostasy. I would be interested in knowing which Bible verses and verses in the Book of Mormon (if any) expound on the apostasy, if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Thanks for helping, Becky. :)
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
Kathryn has mentioned this before in different posts, I just haven't retained much info. :eek:

Groovy. Well, that's cool. I was kind of right on in my understanding of how the LDS church views the apostasy. I would be interested in knowing which Bible verses and verses in the Book of Mormon (if any) expound on the apostasy, if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Thanks for helping, Becky. :)

We do believe there are some, but -- I don't have the computer to get there. Sorry:sorry1:
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Here's my homegrown opinion on the apostasy.

Apostasy essentially means "falling away". People can fall away from the faith. Let's say, for an example, that the easter orthodox religion is the "true" religion. If somebody converted to, say, baptist, this would be an apostacy. They have fallen away from the true religion.

The entire Church can apostasize, too. Again by way of example, let's say that animal sacrifice was originally a christian concept, and that Christ wanted it practiced. The fact that there is no christian church (to my knowledge - Forgive me if I'm wrong :eek:) that practices animal sacrifice is an indication that the entire church has fallen away.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
PetShopBoy88 said:
Here's my homegrown opinion on the apostasy.

Apostasy essentially means "falling away". People can fall away from the faith. Let's say, for an example, that the easter orthodox religion is the "true" religion. If somebody converted to, say, baptist, this would be an apostacy. They have fallen away from the true religion.

The entire Church can apostasize, too. Again by way of example, let's say that animal sacrifice was originally a christian concept, and that Christ wanted it practiced. The fact that there is no christian church (to my knowledge - Forgive me if I'm wrong :eek:) that practices animal sacrifice is an indication that the entire church has fallen away.

I understand the whole concept of falling away.

I just don't understand if the "Great Apostasy" mentioned within the Bible is meant to be interpreted as a falling away from the Church (which I'm assuming translates...Catholicsm) or turning away from Christ.

When I see "turning away from the faith"...I automatically read this as turning away from Christ...not turning away from the church.

Appreciate the input.:)
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
dawny0826 said:
I understand the whole concept of falling away.
Sorry. I was trying to answer the OP as thouroughly as possible. :eek:

I just don't understand if the "Great Apostasy" mentioned within the Bible is meant to be interpreted as a falling away from the Church (which I'm assuming translates...Catholicsm) or turning away from Christ.
If the Catholic Church is Christ's church, the two would be synonimous. If the Catholic Church is doing things the way Christ would have them be done, then the Catholic Church is essentially Christ's influence on earth, and to turn away from Christ's church would be to turn away from Christ.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Sorry. I was trying to answer the OP as thouroughly as possible. :eek:

Please, don't apologize. I think that came out brashly. I'm sorry.:D I appreciate your input.

If the Catholic Church is Christ's church, the two would be synonimous. If the Catholic Church is doing things the way Christ would have them be done, then the Catholic Church is essentially Christ's influence on earth, and to turn away from Christ's church would be to turn away from Christ.

That makes sense.

My next question...

Does that mean that the Catholic Church labels the Protestant movement (for lack of better terminology) as being the "great apostasy"?
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
dawny0826 said:
Does that mean that the Catholic Church labels the Protestant movement (for lack of better terminology) as being the "great apostasy"?
I'm sure they probably would. And the Eastern Orthodox labels the Catholic church as the apostosy.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
PetShopBoy88 said:
I'm sure they probably would. And the Eastern Orthodox labels the Catholic church as the apostosy.

I'm following you.

This whole thing kind of saddens me, though.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Here I thought I'd pop in with the Calvinist view of apostasy that I was taught, but I figured, oh, I'd check Wiki and it starts off with a Calvinist view! That part I can vouch for the accuracy -- I can't say about the other views from other deonomination.

Here's the link for Great Apostasy

I would give you the perspective I had when I was not religious and just studying the Bible, but that would be off topic in this are of the forum, so I'd have to PM you or something if you like.

The idea of the Apostasy is based on based in part on this passage:

Matthew 24:10-13
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The context of this passage is Jesus speaking to his disciples about what will occur before His return.

There's another passage in Timothy, if you want me to post it. Oh...I see the Wiki article references it anyway. Figures.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
How is the Great Apostasy different form let's say:

1. Heresy - a movement from within the walls of the Church that willfully deviates from a true teaching.
2. Schism - usually always involves high ranking officials (bishops) who break union from the Church on various grounds. (involves various heretical views).

It has always been my understanding that the the Great Apostasy delt with the complete loss of authority. If you have no authority, there is no way to bind what is or isn't true.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Victor said:


It has always been my understanding that the the Great Apostasy delt with the complete loss of authority. If you have no authority, there is no way to bind what is or isn't true.

That's how the LDS Church feels about it, that there was a loss of authority. That's where the LDS Church and the Catholic Church differ just a bit. ;)
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Booko said:
Here I thought I'd pop in with the Calvinist view of apostasy that I was taught, but I figured, oh, I'd check Wiki and it starts off with a Calvinist view! That part I can vouch for the accuracy -- I can't say about the other views from other deonomination.

Here's the link for Great Apostasy

I would give you the perspective I had when I was not religious and just studying the Bible, but that would be off topic in this are of the forum, so I'd have to PM you or something if you like.

The idea of the Apostasy is based on based in part on this passage:

Matthew 24:10-13
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The context of this passage is Jesus speaking to his disciples about what will occur before His return.

There's another passage in Timothy, if you want me to post it. Oh...I see the Wiki article references it anyway. Figures.

Thanks, Booko! And you're more than welcome to PM me with further info (or to just say hi). :)

I've think I've got scripture in 1 TIm. marked. :D
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Victor said:
How is the Great Apostasy different form let's say:

1. Heresy - a movement from within the walls of the Church that willfully deviates from a true teaching.
2. Schism - usually always involves high ranking officials (bishops) who break union from the Church on various grounds. (involves various heretical views).

It has always been my understanding that the the Great Apostasy delt with the complete loss of authority. If you have no authority, there is no way to bind what is or isn't true.

Please know, my intentions aren't to debate. But I do have a couple of questions.

If Christ has been given authority and Christ has never left us...how could there ever have been a loss of authority? I know that we view the church differently but I just don't understand if authority is ultimately Christ's...and Christ has always been with us...how could it have been lost?

So, the Catholic church doesn't believe that the believer has any authority without the church?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
Please know, my intentions aren't to debate. But I do have a couple of questions.

If Christ has been given authority and Christ has never left us...how could there ever have been a loss of authority? I know that we view the church differently but I just don't understand if authority is ultimately Christ's...and Christ has always been with us...how could it have been lost?

So, the Catholic church doesn't believe that the believer has any authority without the church?

There is a difference between Christ being with us through the Spirit and Christ's authority (priesthood) being present on the earth. LDS believe that the authority/priesthood was lost when the apostle's died. As Becky mentioned, the Light of Christ is always with us and I believe there continued to be people who were touched by God to bring about change in the world, but that doesn't mean they were given his full authority to act in his name and organize the Church. We believe Christ organized a Church and that organization fell away as spoken of by Paul. So the loss of the Church and the priesthood/authority is what the LDS call the Great Apostasy.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
nutshell said:
There is a difference between Christ being with us through the Spirit and Christ's authority (priesthood) being present on the earth. LDS believe that the authority/priesthood was lost when the apostle's died. As Becky mentioned, the Light of Christ is always with us and I believe there continued to be people who were touched by God to bring about change in the world, but that doesn't mean they were given his full authority to act in his name and organize the Church. We believe Christ organized a Church and that organization fell away as spoken of by Paul. So the loss of the Church and the priesthood/authority is what the LDS call the Great Apostasy.

Thank you for your input, Nutshell.

I think much of my confusion stems from my perceptions of the church. I've always believed that the authority rests in the church because the church is comprised of believers. Authority is found in Christ. Christ is found within the believer. And as such, the believer has a measure of authority that cannot be lost.

It means a lot to me to understand where other Christians stand.

I've pondered a lot lately on what the apostasy means because I've questioned if those who originally broke away from the Catholic church were justified in their actions. There's just so much that makes sense from so many Christian denominations and I just thank God that I have salvation in Christ. If I have everything else wrong...I can trust that I'm still found in Him.

I've just felt kind of emotional. As I study the Bible more, Christ's message of Love, the fact that God is Love. I know that I need to cling to the truth that Christ is the way and God has everything under control.

God isn't the author of confusion, so I wonder why there's so much that I find confusing, know what I mean?

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for "listening".
 
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