I have some deep question about God, help!

[Trailblazer]

I personally know more people who have rejected their faith than started to believe. I have no idea what the actual statistics are.

You might have a point, statistically speaking, but do you think those people ever really believed in God? Maybe they just had a religion such as Christianity they were raised in and never had any certainty about the existence of God. I meant that people who are certain don’t usually become nonbelievers and I was reflecting on my own experiences.

I see no reason to take the notion of any god seriously. That doesn't mean I can 100% rule one out, but I see no reason to devote much time and effort to it, especially as I think it even less likely that any human religion has anything to do with a god, even if one exists.

I can understand that if you are basing God’s existence on religion and you cannot imagine religion having anything to do with God. Most atheists are in the same situation. Unfortunately for those who do want to know if there is a God or not, religion is the only way to know, since God reveals His existence through Messengers who reveal scriptures and establish religions.

My reason is the same one I've explained but you still don't seem to get. Why would a god, who wanted to communicate, not make it's message clear and obviously genuine, rather than just having a religion that seems like all the others? It still makes zero sense to me.

Regarding the Messengers of God who establish the religions, I just explained why we need them to an atheist on another forum.

God cannot say it Himself since God is not a human who can talk and write. God uses Mediators to communicate and establish His existence.

God is not going to have ANYTHING to do with humans directly, not EVER. God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. God transcends and is independent of all His creatures.

Anyone who does not understand why God has to use a Mediator who is BOTH human and divine to bridge the gap between Himself and humans is not thinking at all.

There really is no other way that God could communicate to humans and convey a message that humans could understand.

Why wouldn't a god make its existence plain? You're not answering the question. What is the supposed virtue that god is rewarding?

One reason is because God wants us to determine He exists using our own innate intelligence and another reason is that God wants us to have some faith. But it should be a reason-based faith. The virtues that God is rewarding are sincerity and effort. Those who sincerely seek God and make the effort will be guided by God and by the Messengers of God, who are in the spiritual world just waiting to assist sincere souls on earth.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267​

The Baha'i faith looks just like all the other religions to me (that means it looks like a myth). There is no obvious reason to treat it differently, that I can see.

I do not know what you have seen. What is the same as other religions? What do you mean by a myth?

I think you missed my point. Is the "test", the virtue that god rewards, for looking so hard for it, just an acknowledgement of its existence, or does it want some further response? If the former, then hiding its existence makes some kind of sense, but makes the test silly in the extreme. If the latter, then why can't it make the fact of its existence obvious to everybody so they can make an informed choice to respond or not?

God does not want anything from humans because God does not need anything from humans. So God does not want or need acknowledgment of His existence. It is only for human benefit that God communicates to humans, out of His love for us.

We are rewarded by looking so hard if we find what we are looking for. Finding out that God exists is the reward.

Simply put, God does not make His existence obvious to everyone because God expects everyone to search for Him and He wants us to have faith in what we find. If God made it obvious that He exists, everyone would believe in God and they would not have to have any faith. Obviously God wants us to have faith; otherwise God would have proven His existence.

God wants our belief to be a choice; if people knew for sure that God exists they would never reject God because they would understand the consequences. Ironically, those of us who truly believe even without objective proof so know the consequences of rejecting God. Strong faith is knowledge.

I said there is no obviously genuine message. I can't be sure, but if one of the religions contains a genuine message, then I think god is being unjust and unfair (for the reasons already stated multiple times now).

All of the religions have a genuine message but only one religion has the message that is pertinent to THIS AGE in history. If one even gives them all a cursory look, it is rather obvious which religion that is -- the one that has what humanity need is this age.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy? In like manner, every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world with the resplendent radiance of the Day Star of Divine knowledge, they have invariably summoned its peoples to embrace the light of God through such means as best befitted the exigencies of the age in which they appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80​

Why would I think a new religion would be more likely to contain a genuine message than an older one? If this is a game of hide-and-seek, who knows what tricks god is playing?

You would think that if you looked at the problems we have in the world today and then compared them to the solutions the various religions have to offer. What do Judaism, Christianity of Islam have that is going to solve today’s problems? Nothing. The Baha’i Faith has the answers that no other religion has, but you would only know that if you knew more about it.

 

[ratiocinator]

You might have a point, statistically speaking, but do you think those people ever really believed in God?

Yes, I do.

Unfortunately for those who do want to know if there is a God or not, religion is the only way to know, since God reveals His existence through Messengers who reveal scriptures and establish religions.

This is begging the question.

God cannot say it Himself since God is not a human who can talk and write. God uses Mediators to communicate and establish His existence.

God is not going to have ANYTHING to do with humans directly, not EVER. God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. God transcends and is independent of all His creatures.

Anyone who does not understand why God has to use a Mediator who is BOTH human and divine to bridge the gap between Himself and humans is not thinking at all.

There really is no other way that God could communicate to humans and convey a message that humans could understand.

The only conclusion from this is that god is not omnipotent. In fact, this describes a severely limited and feeble god. An omnipotent god could create any sort of manifestation or avatar it wanted, or it could make its message appear in any number of different ways and in different forms.

The virtues that God is rewarding are sincerity and effort.

But it obviously isn't sincerity and effort that is being rewarded. You can be very sincere about finding out about the world and make lots of effort to do so, and yet still never be convinced by the 'right' religion.

God does not want anything from humans because God does not need anything from humans. So God does not want or need acknowledgment of His existence. It is only for human benefit that God communicates to humans, out of His love for us.

We are rewarded by looking so hard if we find what we are looking for. Finding out that God exists is the reward.

This makes no sense at all. Look, this is going round in circles. I have no idea why anybody would think this makes the slightest sense, just repeating it, isn't helping.

If god loves us and knows believing in it would benefit us, why the silly hide-and-seek, so only those who happen to find some religion believable benefit?

Simply put, God does not make His existence obvious to everyone because God expects everyone to search for Him and He wants us to have faith in what we find. If God made it obvious that He exists, everyone would believe in God and they would not have to have any faith. Obviously God wants us to have faith; otherwise God would have proven His existence.

Begging the question again and now you're contradicting yourself. You just said that god didn't want or need anything from us, and that the reward was for sincerity and effort, now god wants us to have faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I do.

I have no reason to doubt that those people believed in God, I just wondered how people who once believed can come to disbelieve in God.

Trailblazer said: Unfortunately for those who do want to know if there is a God or not, religion is the only way to know, since God reveals His existence through Messengers who reveal scriptures and establish religions.

You said: This is begging the question.

Begging the question is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true.

Why is what I said begging the question?

The only conclusion from this is that god is not omnipotent. In fact, this describes a severely limited and feeble god. An omnipotent god could create any sort of manifestation or avatar it wanted, or it could make its message appear in any number of different ways and in different forms.

What you and other atheists do not understand is that an omnipotent God can do anything, but omnipotence does not imply that God WILL do anything. Omnipotence implies that God WILL only do what God chooses to do, not what humans think it should do.

Also, what atheists seem to dismiss is that God is also All-Knowing and All-Wise. That implies that God would know the best way to communicate to humans. Since no human is All-Knowing or All-Wise, no human can know as much as God or be as wise as God is. As such, to question what God does is patently illogical.

That said, I understand that you have not accepted the premise that God uses Messengers to communicate.

Let’s pretend we do not know anything about God’s communication through Messengers. What do you propose would work better than Messengers who reveal scriptures? Please bear in mind that the Messengers not only serve the purpose of revealing God’s existence; they also bring messages. How do you propose that God could communicate the equivalent of 15,000 Tablets that Baha’u’llah wrote in any other way?

But it obviously isn't sincerity and effort that is being rewarded. You can be very sincere about finding out about the world and make lots of effort to do so, and yet still never be convinced by the 'right' religion.

I never said that those who are not convinced are not sincere or do not make an effort; I only said that one’s sincerity and effort will be rewarded if they find the right religion.

This makes no sense at all. Look, this is going round in circles. I have no idea why anybody would think this makes the slightest sense, just repeating it, isn't helping.

If god loves us and knows believing in it would benefit us, why the silly hide-and-seek, so only those who happen to find some religion believable benefit?

There is no hide-and-seek. Anyone can find a religion if they are looking for one, just look at all the religions you can find on this forum. It is not true that ONLY those who find the Baha’i Faith benefit; those of other religions also benefit from those religions. However, I think that Baha’is benefit more than those of the older religions, because we have the up-to-date religion and the one God wants us to be following.

Trailblazer said: Simply put, God does not make His existence obvious to everyone because God expects everyone to search for Him and He wants us to have faith in what we find. If God made it obvious that He exists, everyone would believe in God and they would not have to have any faith. Obviously God wants us to have faith; otherwise God would have proven His existence.

You said: Begging the question again and now you're contradicting yourself. You just said that god didn't want or need anything from us, and that the reward was for sincerity and effort, now god wants us to have faith.

Please explain how I am begging the question.

I am not contradicting myself because God wants us to have faith, not for His benefit, but for our own benefit. Faith in anything implies that we have trust, and it is good for our character to have trust as long as it is not misplaced trust. God does not need our faith because God has no needs since God is self-subsistent and self-sufficient. Thus everything God reveals to us is only for our benefit.

The following excerpts from longer passages explain what I have been trying to convey. Take special note of the parts in bold type.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess. If ye believe, to your own behoof will ye believe; and if ye believe not, ye yourselves will suffer.” Gleanings, p. 148

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166​

“He Himself can well dispense with all creatures” means that God could wipe us all out in one second, but the reason He doesn’t wipe us out is because He created us out of His love for us. It is for that very reason that God sends Messengers with messages that benefit us. The following Hidden Word is Baha'u'llah speaking from the station of the Father, as the Voice of God.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

 

[ratiocinator]

Why is what I said begging the question?

You said: "Unfortunately for those who do want to know if there is a God or not, religion is the only way to know, since God reveals His existence through Messengers who reveal scriptures and establish religions." - the reason you gave assumes your conclusion.

What you and other atheists do not understand is that an omnipotent God can do anything, but omnipotence does not imply that God WILL do anything. Omnipotence implies that God WILL only do what God chooses to do, not what humans think it should do.

Also, what atheists seem to dismiss is that God is also All-Knowing and All-Wise. That implies that God would know the best way to communicate to humans. Since no human is All-Knowing or All-Wise, no human can know as much as God or be as wise as God is. As such, to question what God does is patently illogical.

All of which is also circular. You are attempting to explain away logical objections by assuming your conclusion that there is a god who is omnipotent and omniscient.

Let’s pretend we do not know anything about God’s communication through Messengers. What do you propose would work better than Messengers who reveal scriptures? Please bear in mind that the Messengers not only serve the purpose of revealing God’s existence; they also bring messages. How do you propose that God could communicate the equivalent of 15,000 Tablets that Baha’u’llah wrote in any other way?

Well, it could go for a spectacular public revelation - making huge temples appear around the globe with all the tablets, perfectly translated into all languages, inside on materials unknown to science - how about that? Or have an individual approach to every single person in the world receiving the message in a tailor-made way.

But then it would have to give up on the hide-and-seek it seems so keen on. I'm sorry, but none of your explanations for that have made any sense to me - they all seem to rely on first assuming that a god exists and knows best.

I am not contradicting myself because God wants us to have faith, not for His benefit, but for our own benefit. Faith in anything implies that we have trust, and it is good for our character to have trust as long as it is not misplaced trust.

I regard faith, in the sense of believing something about reality without sufficient objective reasons to do so, as a character flaw.

 

[ManSinha]

You would think that if you looked at the problems we have in the world today and then compared them to the solutions the various religions have to offer. What do Judaism, Christianity of Islam have that is going to solve today’s problems? Nothing. The Baha’i Faith has the answers that no other religion has, but you would only know that if you knew more about it.

You know @ratiocinator - the above statement is telling - I am a newbie to these fora and yet when I read @Deeje for example - the exact same undertones come thru as my emphasis above "We alone have it!" SMH

This poster wants others to know more about their faith - what efforts have they undertaken to honestly and with an open mind look at others - odd and perhaps ironic - and please let me clarify - I am NOT FOR A MOMENT stating that the way of the Sikh Guru is the only way - I am only stating that implicit in their teachings is to look for the good in each and every one

As the saint Kabir put it so well -

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||

 

[Trailblazer]

You said: "Unfortunately for those who do want to know if there is a God or not, religion is the only way to know, since God reveals His existence through Messengers who reveal scriptures and establish religions." - the reason you gave assumes your conclusion.

Do you mean that the reason that religion is the only way to know that God exists assumes that God exists?

But I never assumed God exists with no evidence; I know that God exists from what is revealed in scriptures of religions.

All of which is also circular. You are attempting to explain away logical objections by assuming your conclusion that there is a god who is omnipotent and omniscient.

I do not assume that God is omnipotent and omniscient. I believe that God is not omnipotent and omniscient because that was revealed in scriptures and also because it makes no sense that God would not have those attributes.

Logic does not determine what God is... God is what God is. We cannot make God in our own image just because it suits our purposes; we cannot have a God that does not know everything just because we don’t like the idea, as that would mean God knows more than we know.

Well, it could go for a spectacular public revelation - making huge temples appear around the globe with all the tablets, perfectly translated into all languages, inside on materials unknown to science - how about that?

Why would that be better than having all that appear as the result of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and what humans did afterward? Baha’is have huge temples around the globe and we have the Writings of Baha’u’llah translated into over 800 languages, all done by humans. What I am asking is this: what is the BIG problem with God using a Messenger to make all of this happen?

Or have an individual approach to every single person in the world receiving the message in a tailor-made way.

God certainly does not want to do that and I already explained why... Everyone does not deserve a message from God, not anymore than everyone deserves an MD without going to medical school. I really do not understand why atheists don’t get the fact that God does not owe anyone a free ride. And just because God CAN do something does not mean God should do what humans think He should do. Any God that took orders from humans would be no more than a human being.

But then it would have to give up on the hide-and-seek it seems so keen on. I'm sorry, but none of your explanations for that have made any sense to me - they all seem to rely on first assuming that a god exists and knows best.

Nobody should assume God exists but they would have to consider it a possibility. I would not go looking for a pink unicorn in my garage because I do not think there is any possibility that there is one.

Of course, if God exists, God knows best; otherwise God would not be God; God would be on par with humans. We have to make some assumptions based upon logic.

God is not hiding anything except His Essence (His intrinsic nature). God has revealed His attributes and His will through the various Messengers throughout all of human history.

I regard faith, in the sense of believing something about reality without sufficient objective reasons to do so, as a character flaw.

You are not going to get objective evidence of God, but there is objective evidence of Baha’u’llah; His character, how He lived, what He did on His mission, and what He wrote.

Character is the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. Why do you think it is a character flaw to have a reason-based faith in something such as God that can never be proven as a fact?

 

[Trailblazer]

You know @ratiocinator - the above statement is telling - I am a newbie to these fora and yet when I read @Deeje for example - the exact same undertones come thru as my emphasis above "We alone have it!" SMH

This poster wants others to know more about their faith - what efforts have they undertaken to honestly and with an open mind look at others - odd and perhaps ironic - and please let me clarify - I am NOT FOR A MOMENT stating that the way of the Sikh Guru is the only way - I am only stating that implicit in their teachings is to look for the good in each and every one

As the saint Kabir put it so well -

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||

I was not implying that there is no Truth in other religions. As I have told @ratiocinator before, God's Truth is found in all the religions, since the spiritual verities of all the religions are the same. What I was saying is that the older religions do not have the solutions to the problems we face in the world today. I believe that only the Baha'i Faith has those solutions because it was a Revelation tailored specifically for this age in history. The problems humanity faces in this age are not the same as we have faced in the past, nor will they be the same as the problems we face in the future. We need to be concerned about the present age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

 

[ManSinha]

That smacks of BS - most of the problems are with greed, lust, sloth, anger, jealousy and the mad rush for power and $$
They have been there since time immemorial - and you know why? Because the human nature has not changed in the last several millennia

There are some problems that come to prominence as infectious diseases have decreased in many parts of the world - there is cancer / diabetes / heart disease / dementia - does the writings you refer to, make any references here - you quoted something generic and you blithely mention it was "specifically tailored for this age"? Again how much of these can be traced back to the habits of humans versus their genetics?

And the writings of the Ba'h'ai faith were revealed in the mid 19th century
There has been significant change in the societal mores since then

You cannot have it both ways - either you invoke change and concede that the Ba'h'ai faith is outdated
Or you concede that the majority of the problems with the human psyche are the same and then it becomes a complement to the other Abrahamic religions

I have been watching you @Trailblazer - you pretend to be civil but either invoke helplessness to do research (I have my rental to take care of) or insidiously insinuate that you and your prophet are better than the next guy -

I am done debating with you

 

[Trailblazer]

Or you concede that the majority of the problems with the human psyche are the same and then it becomes a complement to the other Abrahamic religions

The problems with the human psyche are the same but the world changes over time so the problems in the world are different.
The other Abrahamic religions address our spiritual nature but they do not address the social and political problems we have in the world.
The social teachings and laws of the older religions are old and they are outdated. They do not address the problems of modern-day society.

 

[Deeje]

You know @ratiocinator - the above statement is telling - I am a newbie to these fora and yet when I read @Deeje for example - the exact same undertones come thru as my emphasis above "We alone have it!" SMH

As far as I am aware, I have not commented on this topic....?

Am I confident about my beliefs? Yes I am. Is there something wrong with that? Does it make those who are doubtful feel uneasy somehow?
What is the point of having a belief that you don't believe is right?

RF is for religious discussion and all beliefs are explained here. Its beneficial for people who are searching to consider all points of view. Along with the belief expressed is the reason why someone accepts it. That is what is posted on these forums.....viewpoints. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[ratiocinator]

Logic does not determine what God is... God is what God is. We cannot make God in our own image just because it suits our purposes; we cannot have a God that does not know everything just because we don’t like the idea, as that would mean God knows more than we know.

It looks to me as if you are constructing a god that explains away all the logical problems associated with the idea of a caring and just god and the world being the way it is.

Why would that be better than having all that appear as the result of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and what humans did afterward?

It would be better because it couldn't be mistaken for a myth, a mistake, a lie, or an accident of history. It wouldn't get lost amongst human mythology.

Baha’is have huge temples around the globe and we have the Writings of Baha’u’llah translated into over 800 languages, all done by humans. What I am asking is this: what is the BIG problem with God using a Messenger to make all of this happen?

It gets lost amongst human mythology.

God certainly does not want to do that and I already explained why... Everyone does not deserve a message from God...

I simply don't think the explanation you've given makes any sense if god is just and fair.

...not anymore than everyone deserves an MD without going to medical school.

But it's nothing at all like getting a quantification, is it? If it's true, it's about knowing something fundamental, and very important, about life. Why would a just and fair god want to keep people in the dark?

I would not go looking for a pink unicorn in my garage because I do not think there is any possibility that there is one.

I see very little more reason to think that there might a just god with an important message. Like pink unicorns, it doesn't seem to fit with the world as it is.

You are not going to get objective evidence of God...

Then I'm not going to accept that it exists.

Why do you think it is a character flaw to have a reason-based faith in something such as God that can never be proven as a fact?

If faith is believing something objective about the world without objective evidence, then "reason-based faith" is an oxymoron.

 

[Trailblazer]

It looks to me as if you are constructing a god that explains away all the logical problems associated with the idea of a caring and just god and the world being the way it is.

This is a new subject. I do not know what you mean by “the world being the way it is.” Are you referring to the suffering in the world; if so what suffering are you referring to, some or all of it?

It would be better because it couldn't be mistaken for a myth, a mistake, a lie, or an accident of history. It wouldn't get lost amongst human mythology.

But it is not realistic because that could not happen without human intervention. It is magical thinking to think that just because God is omnipotent God can make things appear. God does not work that way.

It gets lost amongst human mythology.

Only because you believe it is mythology. It is all a mindset of “it cannot be true because it is a religion.” That kind of confirmation bias prevents you from seeing anything as true.

I simply don't think the explanation you've given makes any sense if god is just and fair.

What would be just and fair about everyone getting the same deal regardless of effort? Should everyone get a PhD without even going to college? That would not be just and fair to the people who worked really hard and spent a lot of money to get a PhD. Everything we accomplish in life that is worthwhile requires an effort. Why should belief in God be exempt from effort?

But it's nothing at all like getting a quantification, is it? If it's true, it's about knowing something fundamental, and very important, about life. Why would a just and fair god want to keep people in the dark?

God does not want us in the dark. That is why God sends Messengers who establish religions. Most people believe in one or another religion so they believe God exists and they know something about God. 84 percent of the world population has a faith

I see very little more reason to think that there might a just god with an important message. Like pink unicorns, it doesn't seem to fit with the world as it is.

Please explain more about what you mean by the world as it is.

Then I'm not going to accept that it exists.

Okay then, but that makes no sense that there would ever be objective evidence of God since God is an immaterial entity.

If faith is believing something objective about the world without objective evidence, then "reason-based faith" is an oxymoron.

Sorry, you just lost me. What I meant by a reason-based faith is a faith that is reasonable, a faith that makes sense.

 

[ratiocinator]

This is a new subject. I do not know what you mean by “the world being the way it is.” Are you referring to the suffering in the world; if so what suffering are you referring to, some or all of it?

It isn't new, I mean that there is a cacophony of contradictory religions and no obviously genuine message.

It is magical thinking to think that just because God is omnipotent God can make things appear. God does not work that way.

How convenient. It seems to me that a god in itself is magical thinking. I don't see how miracles would be any more magical. Many religions claim that there have been miracles.

Only because you believe it is mythology. It is all a mindset of “it cannot be true because it is a religion.” That kind of confirmation bias prevents you from seeing anything as true.

As I said before, at least most of the religions (as currently presented) must be wrong. There is no one that is obviously genuine, therefore, if one actually is genuine, it is lost amongst the false ones.

God does not want us in the dark. That is why God sends Messengers who establish religions.

So why won't it make it's message obvious? We are back to the game of hide-and-seek.

Okay then, but that makes no sense that there would ever be objective evidence of God since God is an immaterial entity.

This is not a logical constraint. If god is omnipotent, it could provide any evidence it wanted.

Sorry, you just lost me. What I meant by a reason-based faith is a faith that is reasonable, a faith that makes sense.

I regard believing in the objective reality of something without any objective evidence, to be fundamentally unreasonable.

I don't think there is much more to say - we are just covering the same ground. You are convinced that it makes some sort of sense for a just and fair god to require faith and not provide an obvious message to everybody, and I see it as a contradiction. You think it's reasonable to believe despite not having objective evidence, and I don't.

 

[Trailblazer]

It isn't new, I mean that there is a cacophony of contradictory religions and no obviously genuine message.

How can you know that there is no obviously genuine one without looking?

How convenient. It seems to me that a god in itself is magical thinking. I don't see how miracles would be any more magical. Many religions claim that there have been miracles.

Miracles are possible but only if God chooses. Obviously God does not choose to use miracles to prove He exists.

As I said before, at least most of the religions (as currently presented) must be wrong. There is no one that is obviously genuine, therefore, if one actually is genuine, it is lost amongst the false ones.

All religions were genuine back in their day, but they have been corrupted my man.

The Baha’i Faith is the only genuine religion for this new day. is only lost if you do not look for it and find it.

So why won't it make it's message obvious? We are back to the game of hide-and-seek.

It could be that everyone is not meant to get the message; I don’t know because I am not God.

It is obvious to some of us. There is no reason to think it should be obvious to everyone.

This is not a logical constraint. If god is omnipotent, it could provide any evidence it wanted.

I never said God couldn’t. I only ever said it does not choose to provide any evidence other than the Messengers.

I regard believing in the objective reality of something without any objective evidence, to be fundamentally unreasonable.

And I find that expecting to get objective evidence of a God that is not an objective reality to be downright illogical.

I don't think there is much more to say - we are just covering the same ground. You are convinced that it makes some sort of sense for a just and fair god to require faith and not provide an obvious message to everybody, and I see it as a contradiction. You think it's reasonable to believe despite not having objective evidence, and I don't.

You are right. I see no reason why a just God would provide an obvious message to everybody because within that everybody are people who are evil to the very core and they do not deserve an obvious message from God. Those kinds of people do not want a message from God, because they have no interest in God or knowing if God exists, all they care about are themselves. So, logically speaking, why would God make it obvious to those people?

Have you ever dealt with someone who is pure evil? I am dealing with one right now, an evil tenant who is trying to sue me by making false claims of injuries. Does he deserve an obvious message from God? No, he should be sent straight to hell before taking one more breath on earth.

This tenant is looking for easy money at my expense. You had better believe that God does not want to make it easy for everyone because within the everyone are people who not deserve to even live, let alone get an easy message from God.

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82​

 

[ratiocinator]

And I find that expecting to get objective evidence of a God that is not an objective reality to be downright illogical.

If god isn't an objective reality, what have we been talking about? If god is not objectively real, there can't be an objectively right message from it (or any objective message at all).

I see no reason why a just God would provide an obvious message to everybody because within that everybody are people who are evil to the very core and they do not deserve an obvious message from God.

So why would god create people who are "evil to the very core"?

 

[Trailblazer]

If god isn't an objective reality, what have we been talking about? If god is not objectively real, there can't be an objectively right message from it (or any objective message at all).

Maybe we have a different definition of objective?

What I meant is that God is not a material being that can be proven objectively, as by science. I did not mean that God is not real. But we have to take that on faith because God can never be SEEN, heard, felt or touched.

God is real, and I just explained on my other forum something about why God has to use Messengers to communicate that might be useful. This atheist insists that God cannot be omnipotent because God cannot speak or write; this is not true, but the reason God cannot speak or write is because only humans can speak and write, and God is not a human. Omnipotent means All-Powerful, not can do anything. God cannot DO what is not within His nature to do.

The question from this atheist was: If a god can't speak or write, then, apart from that proving the god is not omnipotent, why should anyone believe that this god somehow communicates to alleged messengers?

I answered: God does not speak to them in a voice like a man would speak to a man. God speaks to them on a different wavelength, through the Holy Spirit. ONLY the Messengers can pick up on that frequency, which is why no ordinary human could EVER understand communication from God. It is not something even the Messengers understand; it just happens to them and they write it down for us... Well, not all of them wrote it down themselves, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the only Messengers who wrote their own scriptures. The other scriptures such as the Bible come to us second or third hand.

So why would god create people who are "evil to the very core"?

God did not create people that way. They chose to become that way. Everyone was created good but we all have two natures, a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature, so we can choose to act according to either nature. Some people choose to act according to their lower nature and they thereby become evil.

A better question is why God allows evil people to continue to exist and hurt innocent people. If I was God I would wipe them off the face of the earth and send them to hell, but God is merciful so he allows them to exist, hoping that eventually they will change. Unfortunately, most of those evil people never change. Sometimes they have to pay for their crimes but sometimes they fool the justice system. They will probably get their punishment from God and/or from realizing what they did after they die, I sure hope so.