'I dream of a map without Israel'

[Nehustan]

I won't dispute any of your last post...in fact it serves a constant source of amusement to me and others. God willing we will overcome the humour when it becomes dark....

 

[jewscout]

I won't dispute any of your last post...in fact it serves a constant source of amusement to me and others. God willing we will overcome the humour when it becomes dark....

that you find humor in these issues worries me a great deal.

 

[Nehustan]

I did say I hope that when the humour becomes dark (i.e. the 70,000 lay dead) we will see the lack of humour and have mercy on the remaining Yahoud. As I said Allah has guaranteed their protection in the Quran.

Break-through. One must resolutely make the matter known
At the court of the king.
It must be announced truthfully. Danger.
It is necessary to notify one's own city.
It does not further to resort to arms.
It furthers one to undertake something.
​

 

[jewscout]

I did say I hope that when the humour becomes dark (i.e. the 70,000 lay dead) we will see the lack of humour and have mercy on the remaining Yahoud. As I said Allah has guaranteed their protection in the Quran.

unless of course Tanach has the events right, at which point the role of mercy giver will be reversed.

but also in Tanach war does not have to happen. We as a planet can choose to enter the age of Moshiach w/o any deaths.

 

[Nehustan]

Well as it's going to be Jeheshuah (i.e. that guy from 2000 years ago) landing in New Jerusalem presumably with accompanying 'troops' (tho' they may stay veiled due to far superior weaponry), and with the strength of that force, and the subsequent unified Islamic and Christian armies, I think not. But then if you learn how to surrender to Eloah/Allah, before the big 'I Am' gets here there won't be a problem...apart from the 70,000 that Gabriel showed Muhammad. Worryingly I think the hadith mentions 1,000,000 'christians' also....

as we like to say 'Lord of the WORLDS' (pl.)​

 

[jewscout]

that's of course...believing this fella is Moshiach.

and even if this guy shows up he must fight against HaShem...i'm putting my money on HaShem in this case.

but again, war does not have to happen, we as a planet can choose to rise above and learn to respect one another, then we will merit to see the days of Moshiach w/o anyone's blood being spilled.

 

[Nehustan]

I don't want to point this out....but you suddenly make out 'Hashem' to be almost personified, and you'll get no argument from me on that (Jahweh/Keterim/Adam Kadmon). Of course Allah/Eloah has no form and thus won't be fighting against Jeheshuah. You may find that Jeheshuah is at the right side of the big 'Iam' (but hey all Musa heard was a voice), the unfortunate part of this is two missed prophets later....it may well be too late to listen to the big 'I am' about Eloah/Allah.

 

[Nehustan]

I don't want to point this out....but you suddenly make out 'Hashem' to be almost personified, and you'll get no argument from me on that (Jahweh/Keterim/Adam Kadmon). Of course Allah/Eloah has no form and thus won't be fighting against Jeheshuah. You may find that Jeheshuah is at the right side of the big 'Iam' (but hey all Musa heard was a voice), the unfortunate part of this is two missed prophets later....it may well be too late to listen to the big 'I am' about Eloah/Allah.

(you get what I mean by the big 'I am'....pillars of fire...pillars of smoke???)​

 

[jewscout]

well, just as any text, i use the language of man to discuss the action of HaShem.

again, tho, we are dealing w/ 2 differing points of view on this. But if the Jewish people adhere to the Torah of HaShem they have no man to fear, not one. He will protect the Jewish people, even when all nations are turned against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:7-8 for example).

but as i have stated before, war does not have to happen (Isaiah 11), there is always personal choice.

 

[Nehustan]

News Flash...the war IS happening. Let me put a moot point to you...what if the big 'I am' (HaShem) clued in a whole other load of people and entered into covenants with them too. Let me extend the hypothesis, would 'HaShem' not be a little annoyed that his 'chosen people' had ignored the 'phone call' twice when they (or at least their learnéd) knew who was calling?

 

[jewscout]

News Flash...the war IS happening. Let me put a moot point to you...what if the big 'I am' (HaShem) clued in a whole other load of people and entered into covenants with them too. Let me extend the hypothesis, would 'HaShem' not be a little annoyed that his chosen people had ignored the 'phone call' twice when they (or at least their learned) knew who was calling?

well if we choose to put aside our differences and work to find a compromise, hard compromises where not everyone's going to be happy but it's better than killing millions of innocent people, then there doesn't have to be a war.

if HaShem revealed Himself to others, that's their deal, but He made it very clear that for the Jewish people it's the Torah, "All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. " Deut. 13:1
and the texts of the Gospels as well as the Quran go are in violation of this verse.
if it works for others, fine, but the HaShem made it very clear to the Jewish people what He expects from them.

believe it or not you can choose to follow other faiths and still be doing the will of G-d. There is no one true path for all.

 

[Nehustan]

Of course no one would agree to adding to the words of Moses, he was a prophet. But here we have a difference in interpretation you see. No Muslim, or Muhammad, nor Christian, nor Jesus would add to the words of Musa, i.e. The Pentateuch. However new revelations are not adding to the words revealed to Moses, they remain the same. Of course the learned can see the twists in the NT, and yet they allow the lack of scripture and thus misconceptions of the disciples to stand without explanation with their knowledge. Some even openly mocking the obvious confusion.

 

[jewscout]

but to follow the docterine of either faiths (especially Christianity) goes against the basic beliefs of Judaism.

For example, in Islam, Muhammed is the last and greatest prophet and the seal of the prophets (if i'm not mistaken, it's been a while since my course on Early Islam)

Judaism holds that MOSES (Moshe Rabbeinu) was the greatest of prophets because Judaism says he is the only man in human history to stand in the presence of HaShem, concious (not in a dream-state) and live.

to tack on the idea that Muhammed takes on this role and brings new revelations counter to the mitzvot of the Torah goes against the edict in Deut. 13:1



(wait, weren't we originally talking about a map?:bonk: )

 

[Nehustan]

Yes we were and specifically the city of Al Quds/Jerusalem. Do you know for sure that HaShem/Eheieh/Jahweh is Eloah...let me bring you back to a new city...

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation, 21:2, KJV.

With that descending from the sky [tho' as I said it may be veiled, after all the line of prophets goes Yahya (John the Baptist), Isa (Jeheshuah), Muhammad, with no mention of Sinjun on Patmos] will you still feel the need to rebuild your temple?

Thunder over the lake:
The image of the Marrying Maiden.
Thus the superior man
Understands the transitory
In the light of the eternity of the end.​

 

[jewscout]

no we were originally talking about the new PA Foriegn Minister talking about a map w/ no Israel on it.

HaShem is YHVH, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

unless that "new jerusalem" comes complete w/ it's own Beit HaMikdash (per the prophecy in Ezekiel), yes i will still feel compelled to see a Temple in it's proper place.

if Moshiach is there, it will be there too. Otherwise, in the Jewish tradition, he's not Moshiach.

 

[Nehustan]

no we were originally talking about the new PA Foriegn Minister talking about a map w/ no Israel on it.

HaShem is YHVH, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

unless that "new jerusalem" comes complete w/ it's own Beit HaMikdash (per the prophecy in Ezekiel), yes i will still feel compelled to see a Temple in it's proper place.

if Moshiach is there, it will be there too. Otherwise, in the Jewish tradition, he's not Moshiach.

I think you'll find, and I really don't mean to be condescending (I'm aware you probably know this), that what you call HaShem means 'The Name'. There are none of the writings of Abraham to my knowledge, tho' the Hebrews almost certainly 'inherited' the Chaldean alphabet from Abraham (Ur is in the Chaldees/Mespotamia) through Isaac, then Jacob to his son Levi and hence to Moses and Aaron, whereupon we have the 'Aaronite' priesthood, modern rabbinical tradition, Kohen, Levites, and 'Israel'. The voice that announced itself to Moses, emminent amongst HaLevi, said 'Eheieh Asher Eheieh' and to tell the tribes to call him 'I am' which also comes to us as Jahweh in the Genesis story making man in his image, Adam Kadmon/Keterim. The God of Abraham it could be argued is Eloah/Ain Soph/Allah. Of course I do not intend to give any bad press to the big 'I am', I am certainly not in a position (nor am I that stupid) to criticise a benevolent entity that has only ever told mankind the truth as they were ready to hear.

I think I will strike a metaphor between the revelation to Muhammad, and all the revelations since spirit was first breathed into clay. When Muhammad was asked why the Quran was not revealed all at one time he was told to answer 'It is revealed in stages so as to strengthen you.' If this was true for a revelation in the lifetime of one man, how much more true is it of words during the whole progression of man making his way back toward the supernal eden?

 

[Nehustan]

Just to pick you up on something from earlier...

...if HaShem revealed Himself to others, that's their deal, but He made it very clear that for the Jewish people it's the Torah, "All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. " Deut. 13:1

and the texts of the Gospels as well as the Quran go are in violation of this verse.
if it works for others, fine, but the HaShem made it very clear to the Jewish people what He expects from them.

believe it or not you can choose to follow other faiths and still be doing the will of G-d. There is no one true path for all.

followed by...

unless that "new jerusalem" comes complete w/ it's own Beit HaMikdash (per the prophecy in Ezekiel), yes i will still feel compelled to see a Temple in it's proper place.

if Moshiach is there, it will be there too. Otherwise, in the Jewish tradition, he's not Moshiach.

precceded by...

well, just as any text, i use the language of man to discuss the action of HaShem.

again, tho, we are dealing w/ 2 differing points of view on this. But if the Jewish people adhere to the Torah of HaShem they have no man to fear, not one. He will protect the Jewish people, even when all nations are turned against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:7-8 for example).

but as i have stated before, war does not have to happen (Isaiah 11), there is always personal choice.

I won't patronise you by spelling out my point as what I'm saying is apparent.

 

[jewscout]

on the contrary...the prophecies are simply that, prophecies. They do not take away or add onto the Mitzvot of the Torah which is what Deut. 13:1 it referring to. in fact they are there to reinforce the observance of those Mitzvot.


nice try though.

 

[Nehustan]

Then you may like to tell me what the Quran instructs Judah and Levi to do that which is in contradiction to the Law of Moses. I would go into the NT but while not believing it 'changed' I do doubt the level of scholastic knowledge of the reporters (i.e. disciples/fishermen) of the words of Jeheshuah [and let's not even get started on (S/P)aul]. I think you'll find that when you get around to studying the Quran, as I'm sure you will, you will find no prophecy that asks the Jews to change their way of life, in fact, and I'll have to paraphrase, when it comes to worship alongside the Muslims they are instructed to follow their own practices while the Muslims bow down.

I put it to you that once again this is about politics and power. The priesthood would not accept what Jesus said to them (which undobtedly was different to what we have reported in the NT), as it threatened their hegemony, casting aspersions (which continue to this day) on his lineage and mother, and then we have Muhammad (pbuh)...illiterate descendant of a slave girl...

(As a post script...if we take the people's who were considered Banu Israel at the time of Muhammad (read the Hijaz (Saudi) down to Sheba (Yemen & over into Africa), you may well find that there are as many of the sons of Jacob within Islam as their are in 'Israel')

 

[jewscout]

does the Quran supercede the Torah as a revealed document?



as far as the christian gospels go, the text is what we have to go on, and if this fella was the jewish moshiach then there would be a Temple and a Torah observant Nation of Israel in Eretz Yisrael w/ no exile going on. Not to mention the vast majority of chirstianity today is based heavily on Paul...and don't get me started w/ paul