I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Tiberius]

I explained this to you yesterday in more than one post and I explained it to you again tonight.

You will choose what God knows you will shoose NOT because God knows what you will choose, but because what you will choose to do is identical with what God knows you will choose.

Whatever you choose at whatever time you choose it that choice will be what God has always known you will make. What God knows has no bearing on what you will choose. There is no connection whatsoever.

If what I choose MUST BE identical with what God has foreseen, then it's not really a choice, as there is only one possible outcome.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not it is not.

If we have free will and can make any choice we want, then there are many possible options, and the outcome is not determined until the choice is made.

If God knows the future, then there is only one possible outcome, which was determined from the beginning of time.

How is it false logic to say that these two situations contradict each other?

It's strange to think that he created everyone and that he let them play out their lives without interfering with the choices they made. But then right from the beginning, or even sooner, he knew what everyone would do and what the outcome would be. And this supposed God went and ahead and created people anyway? But then somehow he "predestined" things too? Either way, if he wrote it all out or let everything play out... and the only way he knows what the choices were is because he can see the beginning and the end... It's still God who put it all together.

Assuming there is such a God, I still blame him. He knew there would be pain and suffering. He knew who and when bad choices were going to be made and let it happen. My problem with that is then who needs God? Except to create everything. So, after the Big Bang, he can go relax and take a break. He's not needed.

But that's not how even the Baha'i Faith says things are. God is involved. He sends his "messengers" to guide people. He wants them to obey his laws and to pray to him and make sacrifices to him. But all along, all we have is another religion explaining why things are the way they are. Which means the "truth" about God that the other religions brought is not exactly correct. But this time it is? With zero proof? Only words in a book that some guy says came from God. And yet people believe it as the absolute truth. Just like people in all the previous religion did with their sacred books.

 

[Tiberius]

How does it make a difference?

If God knows ahead of time, then it reduces the number of possible outcomes to one. If there is only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice.

This is Logic 101.

You just did ! You asked "How can we have a choice, if G-d knows what we will choose?"

That is not me saying, "We do not have free will."

That is me saying, "We do not have free will IF GOD KNOWS AHEAD OF TIME WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO."

There is a very important difference.

How does knowledge of future events force us to choose?
It doesn't.

If the future can be known, then the future is set in stone.

If it is set in stone, then there is only one possible outcome.

If there is only one possible outcome, then there is no choice.

 

[Tiberius]

That is correct.

Glad we agree.

And if the outcome is not determined until the choice is made, then there's no way for the outcome of that choice to be known until AFTER the choice has been made. Are we also agreed on that?

Not as far as we are concerned.

For G-d, time is perceived differently.
What we see as "time passing" is a perception .. it is not a fundamental phenomena, even though scientifically we define it as such.
We have to define it as we do, in order to construct a model of the physical universe. Strictly speaking, 'time' is not absolute.

Even with our understanding that time is flexible, there is no way for knowledge of the future to be known in the past.

It would require the ability to travel through time into the past, and all our currently understood laws of nature say that this is impossible.

 

[Tiberius]

It's strange to think that he created everyone and that he let them play out their lives without interfering with the choices they made. But then right from the beginning, or even sooner, he knew what everyone would do and what the outcome would be. And this supposed God went and ahead and created people anyway? But then somehow he "predestined" things too? Either way, if he wrote it all out or let everything play out... and the only way he knows what the choices were is because he can see the beginning and the end... It's still God who put it all together.

Assuming there is such a God, I still blame him. He knew there would be pain and suffering. He knew who and when bad choices were going to be made and let it happen. My problem with that is then who needs God? Except to create everything. So, after the Big Bang, he can go relax and take a break. He's not needed.

But that's not how even the Baha'i Faith says things are. God is involved. He sends his "messengers" to guide people. He wants them to obey his laws and to pray to him and make sacrifices to him. But all along, all we have is another religion explaining why things are the way they are. Which means the "truth" about God that the other religions brought is not exactly correct. But this time it is? With zero proof? Only words in a book that some guy says came from God. And yet people believe it as the absolute truth. Just like people in all the previous religion did with their sacred books.

I disagree with the idea that an entity having knowledge of future events has caused those events to be predestined. I can watch a movie and know what is going to happen, but that doesn't mean that I am the one responsible for what happens.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are mutually exclusive because it would violate the laws of logic for them not to be.

They are not mutually exclusive because it would violate the laws of logic for them to be.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God determines on Monday that I will wear the red shirt for my lunch meeting on Friday, is there any way for me to choose to wear a different shirt AFTER that point? Yes or no.

Of course, you're probably just going to declare that I'm trying to trick you, or that the question is dishonest. Hint: It's not. You just want some way out of having to answer it.

God does not determine what color shirt you will wear and that is why your argument is invalid.

What color shirt God knows you will wear on Friday is determined by what color shirt you will choose to wear on Friday.

God does not know things 'on Monday' because there is no Monday where God resides, since time does not exist in the dimension where God exists.

God is all-knowing so God has always known what color shirt you would choose to wear on Friday, before you looked into your closet and made the choice.

Apparently you cannot understand this because you can only think linearly.

God does not exist in in the earth dimension where things happen in time. There is no time in the dimension where God exists so from God's perspective all your choices have already been made. God knows what all your choices will be but God's knowledge does not determine your choices.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you miss the point.

And the point is that if God knows that I am going to do a particular thing, there is no way that I can choose to NOT do that particular thing.

No, you miss the point.

You will choose to do what God knows you will choose to do ONLY because what you will choose to do is IDENTICAL with what God knows you will choose.

Whatever you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.
God's knowledge did not cause you to choose anything, you chose freely.

 

[Trailblazer]

If what I choose MUST BE identical with what God has foreseen, then it's not really a choice, as there is only one possible outcome.

It was a choice because you were free to choose between a and b...
There was only one possible outcome because you could not choose both a and b.
God has always known you would choose a, but what God knew you would choose did not constrain your choice.

 

[Tiberius]

They are not mutually exclusive because it would violate the laws of logic for them to be.

How so?

 

[Tiberius]

God does not determine what color shirt you will wear and that is why your argument is invalid.

Never said he did.

I have also told you that I never said he did more times than I can count. Your constant ignoring of this is disrespectful and dishonest.

If you are just going to ignore me, don't bother responding.

What color shirt God knows you will wear on Friday is determined by what color shirt you will choose to wear on Friday.

God does not know things 'on Monday' because there is no Monday where God resides, since time does not exist in the dimension where God exists.

God is all-knowing so God has always known what color shirt you would choose to wear on Friday, before you looked into your closet and made the choice.

Apparently you cannot understand this because you can only think linearly.

God does not exist in in the earth dimension where things happen in time. There is no time in the dimension where God exists so from God's perspective all your choices have already been made. God knows what all your choices will be but God's knowledge does not determine your choices.

Here's a tip. Don't get your science from Star Trek. Reality doesn't work that way. Dimension as you are using it here makes no sense. It's like saying a being can go from height to width. Dimension doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[Tiberius]

No, you miss the point.

You will choose to do what God knows you will choose to do ONLY because what you will choose to do is IDENTICAL with what God knows you will choose.

Whatever you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.
God's knowledge did not cause you to choose anything, you chose freely.

What I choose is in flux until I make the choice.

If I don't make the choice until Friday morning, there is no way that God can say on Monday that he knows what the choice will be.

 

[Tiberius]

It was a choice because you were free to choose between a and b...
There was only one possible outcome because you could not choose both a and b.
God has always known you would choose a, but what God knew you would choose did not constrain your choice.

No, there are two possible outcomes.

Possible outcome #1 - Blue shirt.

Possible outcome #2 - Red Shirt.

 

[Tiberius]

I disagree with the idea that an entity having knowledge of future events has caused those events to be predestined. I can watch a movie and know what is going to happen, but that doesn't mean that I am the one responsible for what happens.

@Trailblazer , since you gave this post a like, can I assume you are going to drop your cries of "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" argument? Because I've told you many times that I have not claimed that God's foreknowledge does so.

 

[Trailblazer]

How so?

Free will and God's omniscience are not mutually exclusive because what God knows does not prevent humans from choosing freely. As such, free will and omniscience can coexist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tiberius said: If God determines on Monday that I will wear the red shirt for my lunch meeting on Friday, is there any way for me to choose to wear a different shirt AFTER that point? Yes or no.

Trailblazer said: God does not determine what color shirt you will wear and that is why your argument is invalid.

Never said he did.

I have also told you that I never said he did more times than I can count. Your constant ignoring of this is disrespectful and dishonest.

If you are just going to ignore me, don't bother responding.

You did say that God determines. I just showed above where you said that.
And then you did not respond to what I said in response.

Here's a tip. Don't get your science from Star Trek. Reality doesn't work that way. Dimension as you are using it here makes no sense. It's like saying a being can go from height to width. Dimension doesn't mean what you think it means.

God exists in a different dimension from the earth dimension. There is no Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday where there is no time. Where God exists everything has already happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I choose is in flux until I make the choice.

If I don't make the choice until Friday morning, there is no way that God can say on Monday that he knows what the choice will be.

That's right. What you choose is in flux until you make the choice.

I think I just struck gold. I think I understand where your misunderstanding is coming from!

You said: If I don't make the choice until Friday morning, there is no way that God can say on Monday that he knows what the choice will be.

God is all-knowing so God has always known what your choice would be on Friday. God did not have to 'wait and see' what you would choose on Friday!

 

[Trailblazer]

No, there are two possible outcomes.

Possible outcome #1 - Blue shirt.

Possible outcome #2 - Red Shirt.

That's right, there were two possible outcomes (blue and red), but there was only one actual outcome (blue or red).

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer , since you gave this post a like, can I assume you are going to drop your cries of "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" argument? Because I've told you many times that I have not claimed that God's foreknowledge does so.

I will drop it if that is what you are saying.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If what I choose MUST BE identical with what God has foreseen, then it's not really a choice, as there is only one possible outcome.

What you are saying here, is that if you choose 'A' it is not a choice, and if you choose 'B' it is also not a choice .. because G-d knew that you would choose either A or B.

I could just as easily say "If what I choose MUST BE identical with what the future is going to be, then it's not really a choice..

It's all word play .. and a feeling that the future can't be known due to "it hasn't happened yet" .. perception .. not logic.