How Paul changed the course of Christianity

[Trailblazer]

Not all who call themselves Christians are born again. To be born again one must repent, receive the Holy Spirit, and walk by the Holy Spirit. In fact, the coming of the Holy Spirit is just the beginning of the journey, for Holy Spirit baptism is the beginning of a new life.

When believer's talk about Christ dwelling within, they are referring to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ comes from the Father. This, in simple terms, is the Trinity. The same spirit in three persons - the Father, above; the Son, amongst; and the Holy Spirit, within.

The coming of the Holy Spirit does affect the heart and soul because the Holy Spirit is able to touch us spiritually and emotionally. The Holy Spirit is a spirit of love, and therefore He leads us into the truth, which is love. God is love.

Thanks for explaining that. That was very well stated. One thing I disagree with is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and that Christ has what Baha’is call the Christ Spirit. That is not exactly the same thing as the Holy Spirit since Christ is not God.

Turning the spirit of love into an understanding of written language and scripture takes time, but God leads the way.

I believe that is true that God can lead you to better understand scripture; however, I do not think you can ever have a perfect understanding of scripture because humans are fallible. Only God has a perfect understanding and since Manifestations of God have God’s knowledge they also know. But we as imperfect humans still have to interpret scripture, and all we can do is approximate its intended meaning. Of course, some verses are much more straightforward than others so they do not present as much of a problem as verses that can easily have more than one meaning.

Now, in terms of logic, explain this to me.
Your words are in red.

You are really fixated on that word Savior aren’t you? I never said that Baha’u’llah was our Savior. That was not His mission; that was the mission of Jesus. Jesus’ mission was to save individual souls; Baha’u’llah’ s mission was to proclaim the oneness of mankind establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

It is God who saves, not Jesus. It is right in the scriptures.

How does God save us? God saved us through Jesus, by sending Jesus.

Just how logical is this, Trailblazer? First, you say that Jesus saves souls. Then you say that God saves, and Jesus doesn't save. Finally, you say that God saves through Jesus.

Which is it to be?

It is just as I stated. We can never have any direct relationship with God so God works through His Son, Jesus. It is God who saves us, by sending Jesus who is our Savior. Isn’t that what the Bible says?

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”​

Can I again point you to the error regarding the Comforter. If I'm fixated about salvation then I would say that you're fixated about Baha'u'llah being another Comforter. Yet, as I keep pointing out the Comforter is NOT FLESH and BLOOD. The Comforter is all SPIRIT. The Comforter IS the HOLY SPIRIT.

No, you are wrong about this, dead wrong. When applied to Jesus and Baha’u’llah Comforter is just a *title* and it means a man who brings the Holy Spirit.

You are the one who is fixated in trying to prove that Baha’u’llah cannot be the Comforter. I am just responding to your objection and I should probably cease and desist because *I know* that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth, I do not care how you interpret the Bible. I went down this same road with another Christian on another forum a few years ago and we finally had to part ways. He insisted the same things you insist, that Holy Spirit is the Comforter so it cannot refer to Baha’u’llah, simply because of the way ONE BIBLE VERSE reads, but I pointed out to him that is just how he interprets the verse. Unfortunately, he was fixated on his interpretation of that one verse so he was unable to use any form of complex thinking to try to understand what the verse means in context with other verses in John 14, 15, and 16.

The REASON he and you believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit is because that is what you have always believed, that it was the Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost, but in context, it is obvious that Jesus was the Comforter. Jesus said He would send another comforter and that refers to Baha’u’llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

Jesus says “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter” which means another in addition to Himself.

Jesus says “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,” means that the world cannot see Baha’u’llah (the Spirit of truth) yet, because He had not come at the time that verse was recorded.....

Since Jesus and Baha’u’llah are the same Spirit of God, when Jesus says “I will come to you” He means He (His Spiirt) will return in the Person of Baha’u’llah... Then He says “Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more” meaning He is going to the Father and He is not coming back to earth.

You are saying, Jesus is the Comforter and Jesus is saying that He will send another Comforter, which was Baha’u’llah.
So you think that Baha'u’llah is the HOLY SPIRIT! So, you must think that Baha'u'llah is GOD!

No, I do not think that. As I said before, the Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God that comes from God to man. It is SENT by God to Jesus and Bahaullah and that is why they were called Comforters.

The following passage makes it clear that GOD and HOLY SPIRIT are used interchangeably.
Acts 5:3,4. 'But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.'

Absolutely not. God is not the Holy Spirit. God is God, one and alone. There is none other God but thee, the help in peril, the self-subsisting. The Holy Spirit emanates from God; it is not God, just like the rays of the sun are not the sun. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit are like the rays of the sun.

Let me try to approach this from a different angle using some other Bible verses... In the following passage, the Holy Spirit is described as the divine perfections (the perfections of God). In this passage, “the manifestation” would be Jesus or Baha’u’llah, since they manifested God.

The Holy Spirit is the Light of God, and if we hate the Light of God we hate God because the Light of God comes from God, who is the Lamp. That is an unforgivable sin because we cannot love God if we hate His Light (and thus hate God). However, it is not unforgivable to be far from the manifestation (Jesus) because we can come to know Jesus or Baha’u’llah later.

Question.—“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”—(Matt. 12:31–32)

Answer.— If a soul remains far from the manifestation, he may yet be awakened; for he did not recognize the manifestation of the divine perfections. But if he loathe the divine perfections themselves—in other words, the Holy Spirit—it is evident that he is like a bat which hates the light.

This detestation of the light has no remedy and cannot be forgiven—that is to say, it is impossible for him to come near unto God. This lamp is a lamp because of its light; without the light it would not be a lamp. Now if a soul has an aversion for the light of the lamp, he is, as it were, blind, and cannot comprehend the light; and blindness is the cause of everlasting banishment from God….” Some Answered Questions, pp. 127-128​

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thanks for explaining that. That was very well stated. One thing I disagree with is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and that Christ has what Baha’is call the Christ Spirit. That is not exactly the same thing as the Holy Spirit since Christ is not God.

I believe that is true that God can lead you to better understand scripture; however, I do not think you can ever have a perfect understanding of scripture because humans are fallible. Only God has a perfect understanding and since Manifestations of God have God’s knowledge they also know. But we as imperfect humans still have to interpret scripture, and all we can do is approximate its intended meaning. Of course, some verses are much more straightforward than others so they do not present as much of a problem as verses that can easily have more than one meaning.

It is just as I stated. We can never have any direct relationship with God so God works through His Son, Jesus. It is God who saves us, by sending Jesus who is our Savior. Isn’t that what the Bible says?

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”​

No, you are wrong about this, dead wrong. When applied to Jesus and Baha’u’llah Comforter is just a *title* and it means a man who brings the Holy Spirit.

You are the one who is fixated in trying to prove that Baha’u’llah cannot be the Comforter. I am just responding to your objection and I should probably cease and desist because *I know* that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth, I do not care how you interpret the Bible. I went down this same road with another Christian on another forum a few years ago and we finally had to part ways. He insisted the same things you insist, that Holy Spirit is the Comforter so it cannot refer to Baha’u’llah, simply because of the way ONE BIBLE VERSE reads, but I pointed out to him that is just how he interprets the verse. Unfortunately, he was fixated on his interpretation of that one verse so he was unable to use any form of complex thinking to try to understand what the verse means in context with other verses in John 14, 15, and 16.

The REASON he and you believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit is because that is what you have always believed, that it was the Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost, but in context, it is obvious that Jesus was the Comforter. Jesus said He would send another comforter and that refers to Baha’u’llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

Jesus says “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter” which means another in addition to Himself.

Jesus says “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,” means that the world cannot see Baha’u’llah (the Spirit of truth) yet, because He had not come at the time that verse was recorded.....

Since Jesus and Baha’u’llah are the same Spirit of God, when Jesus says “I will come to you” He means He (His Spiirt) will return in the Person of Baha’u’llah... Then He says “Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more” meaning He is going to the Father and He is not coming back to earth.

No, I do not think that. As I said before, the Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God that comes from God to man. It is SENT by God to Jesus and Bahaullah and that is why they were called Comforters.

Absolutely not. God is not the Holy Spirit. God is God, one and alone. There is none other God but thee, the help in peril, the self-subsisting. The Holy Spirit emanates from God; it is not God, just like the rays of the sun are not the sun. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit are like the rays of the sun.

Let me try to approach this from a different angle using some other Bible verses... In the following passage, the Holy Spirit is described as the divine perfections (the perfections of God). In this passage, “the manifestation” would be Jesus or Baha’u’llah, since they manifested God.

The Holy Spirit is the Light of God, and if we hate the Light of God we hate God because the Light of God comes from God, who is the Lamp. That is an unforgivable sin because we cannot love God if we hate His Light (and thus hate God). However, it is not unforgivable to be far from the manifestation (Jesus) because we can come to know Jesus or Baha’u’llah later.

Question.—“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”—(Matt. 12:31–32)

Answer.— If a soul remains far from the manifestation, he may yet be awakened; for he did not recognize the manifestation of the divine perfections. But if he loathe the divine perfections themselves—in other words, the Holy Spirit—it is evident that he is like a bat which hates the light.

This detestation of the light has no remedy and cannot be forgiven—that is to say, it is impossible for him to come near unto God. This lamp is a lamp because of its light; without the light it would not be a lamp. Now if a soul has an aversion for the light of the lamp, he is, as it were, blind, and cannot comprehend the light; and blindness is the cause of everlasting banishment from God….” Some Answered Questions, pp. 127-128​

Okay, let me be clear. Is this a fair summary of some of your beliefs?
1. The Holy Spirit is not God. The Holy Spirit is the Light of God.
2. Jesus Christ is a Comforter, and Baha'u'llah 'another Comforter' sent by God.
3. Jesus Christ was not raised bodily from the dead. His soul ascended to heaven at the time of crucifixion.
4. Christ will not return visibly to earth to judge mankind.

What I would like you to consider is YOUR WORDS. Do the words that you speak belong to you? How can a person's words be separated from their self?

 

[Redemptionsong]

As a student of comparative religion, I'm very aware of the teachings of non-Jewish groups. It is not limited to Muslims and Christians. I enjoy studying all the religions of the world.

No reason to be shocked if you think about it. Christianity is an exclusivist religion. In fact, some of your denominations even exclude other Christians. Judaism is simply not like that. There is no need for people to become Jews in order to have a "relationship with God." You are welcome to your particular faith -- I have no problems with the good, God-fearing people that are Christians. But you need to accept that Jews DO think differently than you. Your concerns are not always ours.

Remember that Jews are not in agreement on this particular topic. There are Jews who believe Christians are idolaters and unacceptable in their present form; among these there are those who believe the third temple will be built before the Messiah comes and Christians such as yourself would not be admitted, because you are not Noahide in their views, yet others believe that the third temple will not be built until the Messiah comes, at which point Christians, Muslims, and every other faith group in the world would give up their false beliefs and become Noahide. There are also Jews who don't believe the temple will ever be rebuilt, "God forbid" as one of them said to me. These usually have no problems with acknowledging other religions as fine, despite their confusion on certain issues. Even with this list, I'm not mentioning a lot of different opinions.

As for me? I personally have no problems with other expressions of the worship of God coming to the third temple. I think that ALL who wish to worship the God of Abraham should be welcomed, despite their obvious confusion. In fact, I think that by welcoming them, they will be exposed Judaism, and be much more likely to modify their errant views.

Are you saying that you believe Muhammad and Jesus to be false prophets, yet you're prepared to share a Temple with their followers?!

And another question; Does eternal life matter to you?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are you saying that you believe Muhammad and Jesus to be false prophets, yet you're prepared to share a Temple with their followers?!

And another question; Does eternal life matter to you?

Yes. Exactly. I think Christians and Muslims are confused in many ways, but that they worship the God of Abraham. My synagogue has many intermarrieds, and we welcome the Christian spouses to pray with us. You may not agree, but being shocked is a bit of an overreaction. It's perfectly understandable.

As I said, it is important to remember that Jews have differing opinions on this. In fact, if you asked two Jews, you might get three opinions, as the saying goes.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes. Exactly. I think Christians and Muslims are confused in many ways, but that they worship the God of Abraham. My synagogue has many intermarrieds, and we welcome the Christian spouses to pray with us. You may not agree, but being shocked is a bit of an overreaction. It's perfectly understandable.

As I said, it is important to remember that Jews have differing opinions on this. In fact, if you asked two Jews, you might get three opinions, as the saying goes.

And how about the second question? Is eternal life important to you?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And how about the second question? Is eternal life important to you?

Oh sorry.

I will let God worry about the afterlife. My thing is to obey God and to draw close to him through prayer. That happens the same regardless of what happens in the afterlife, or even there is no afterlife.

Let's say there is transmigration of the soul. I would want to keep the commandments in order not to have to come back and do so.

Let's say that there is a heaven/hell. I would want to obey God and draw close to him.

Let's say that Gehenna (a temporary hell for purification, for the coming resurrection). I would want to obey the commandments so that I would go through less purification after death.

Let's say that there is only Sheol, the grave. I know this may be a strange thought to Christians, but I would still want to obey God and draw near to him. Why? First, because he is the almighty Creator and the God of Israel, to whom I bow. He is Avinu Malkeinu, our father our king, who loves me and seeks the best for me -- shall I not pay that back? And my life will be healthier, happier, longer, and more meaningful if I join a synagogue and practice Judaism.

So I will act the same regardless. I am content to leave the afterlife in God's just, gracious, and merciful hands.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, let me be clear. Is this a fair summary of some of your beliefs?
1. The Holy Spirit is not God. The Holy Spirit is the Light of God.
2. Jesus Christ is a Comforter, and Baha'u'llah 'another Comforter' sent by God.
3. Jesus Christ was not raised bodily from the dead. His soul ascended to heaven at the time of crucifixion.
4. Christ will not return visibly to earth to judge mankind.

What I would like you to consider is YOUR WORDS. Do the words that you speak belong to you? How can a person's words be separated from their self?

Of course whatever words I speak are my words... A person’s words cannot be separated from themselves.

The next thing I predict you will say is that the words you speak are not your words, they are the Holy Spirit speaking through you... Am I right?

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh sorry.

I will let God worry about the afterlife. My thing is to obey God and to draw close to him through prayer. That happens the same regardless of what happens in the afterlife, or even there is no afterlife.

Let's say there is transmigration of the soul. I would want to keep the commandments in order not to have to come back and do so.

Let's say that there is a heaven/hell. I would want to obey God and draw close to him.

Let's say that Gehenna (a temporary hell for purification, for the coming resurrection). I would want to obey the commandments so that I would go through less purification after death.

Let's say that there is only Sheol, the grave. I know this may be a strange thought to Christians, but I would still want to obey God and draw near to him. Why? First, because he is the almighty Creator and the God of Israel, to whom I bow. He is Avinu Malkeinu, our father our king, who loves me and seeks the best for me -- shall I not pay that back? And my life will be healthier, happier, longer, and more meaningful if I join a synagogue and practice Judaism.

So I will act the same regardless. I am content to leave the afterlife in God's just, gracious, and merciful hands.

I just wanted to say I think you are much more spiritual than I am. So I am going to tell you a few things about me because I find that people as spiritual as you can be trusted with the feelings of others. When I say spiritual, I also mean God-fearing.

I do not have a very good attitude towards God. I definitely want to *obey God* and I try to follow the teachings and Laws of Baha’u’llah, and I take my religion very seriously, maybe too seriously. However, I do not love God. In fact, I blame God for much of the suffering in the world... Please do not think that I am any example of the average Baha’i. I do not know any other Baha’is who feel the way I do about God, but I also don’t know any who have suffered as much as I have, although I am sure there are some. My entire life has been and still is constant suffering, not because of anything I have done wrong or because I have not tried to get help. It just is this way, and every time I think I might have a break in my suffering, more suffering comes barreling at me. It never ends. I am not really sure how much more I can take. Does God even care or is this some kind of experiment to see how far He can push me before I go over the edge?

The last thing I need is people telling me that if only I loved God, God would help me. If I have to love God before I get help from God that is not a just God, because an omniscient God knows I cannot love Him in my present condition. Love cannot be willed.

Some people can incorporate a loving God with massive suffering, I am just not one of those people because I consider it illogical that a loving God who is also omnipotent would just allow people to suffer. I am sure many people suffer a lot more than I do, which only proves my point even more. The Christian God of love is not a God I know.

What is the *evidence* that God is just, gracious and merciful? What is the *evidence* that God is loving? Can you provide any evidence other than what is written in the scriptures? Unfortunately, that does not align with what we see in the world, and that is the problem I have. I cannot believe something that does not make sense just because it is in the scriptures.

I do not see how anyone can make sense of suffering in this world, if there is no afterlife. If there is no afterlife, there is no justice for those who have suffered so much in this world, through no fault of their own. Maybe some people who see no need for an afterlife have not suffered very much or hardly at all. I know there are such people who by their own admission have had happy lives and have never been depressed. That is something I cannot even imagine, it is so foreign.

You said: “So I will act the same regardless. I am content to leave the afterlife in God's just, gracious, and merciful hands.”

Acting the same regardless of whether you get a reward in heaven or saved from hell is an important Baha’i principle as this passage demonstrates:

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78​

 

[wizanda]

What is the *evidence* that God is loving?

We're down near Hell according to the Tanakh, and Yeshua; Judaism and Christianity therefore are in categoric denial of the data, like many other religious traditions down here.

Therefore Yeshua's (Salvation's) parent the God Most High (CPU) sustaining life is unconditionally loving, as most of us down here near Hell should have been removed at the beginning; yet the CPU is giving us time to come to understanding through afflictions.

Because of false prophets teaching we're some how all worthy, when only those who become enlightened saints down here are ever going to make it; there is a deception over much of mankind where they don't see their own wickedness (Zechariah 5).
[GALLERY=media, 7191][/GALLERY]

Can you provide any evidence other than what is written in the scriptures?

The CPU interacts with all of us individually down here, it is trying to reprogram all of us through many methods; yet many of us are so stubborn, we're not seeing it, and some are even now going the opposite way.
[GALLERY=media, 8732][/GALLERY]

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Of course whatever words I speak are my words... A person’s words cannot be separated from themselves.

The next thing I predict you will say is that the words you speak are not your words, they are the Holy Spirit speaking through you... Am I right?

No, I was actually thinking about God and His Word. If the Word of God resides in God and is sent forth from God, how can it be distinguished from God?

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.' [John 1:1]
Verse 14. 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

The Word was with the Father. [1 John 1:1-2]
The Word was God. [John 1:1-3]
The Word was made flesh. [John 1:14]
God speaks the Word by His Son. [Hebrews 1:1-2]
Jesus Christ is the Word of God. [Revelation 19:13]

This all points to one conclusion - that Jesus Christ, in being the Word of God, must also be God.

Now, you might say, My word is not always true, and does not reflect me! But we know that God's Word is ALWAYS true, and is therefore a perfect reflection of HIMSELF.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I just wanted to say I think you are much more spiritual than I am. So I am going to tell you a few things about me because I find that people as spiritual as you can be trusted with the feelings of others. When I say spiritual, I also mean God-fearing.

I do not have a very good attitude towards God. I definitely want to *obey God* and I try to follow the teachings and Laws of Baha’u’llah, and I take my religion very seriously, maybe too seriously. However, I do not love God. In fact, I blame God for much of the suffering in the world... Please do not think that I am any example of the average Baha’i. I do not know any other Baha’is who feel the way I do about God, but I also don’t know any who have suffered as much as I have, although I am sure there are some. My entire life has been and still is constant suffering, not because of anything I have done wrong or because I have not tried to get help. It just is this way, and every time I think I might have a break in my suffering, more suffering comes barreling at me. It never ends. I am not really sure how much more I can take. Does God even care or is this some kind of experiment to see how far He can push me before I go over the edge?

The last thing I need is people telling me that if only I loved God, God would help me. If I have to love God before I get help from God that is not a just God, because an omniscient God knows I cannot love Him in my present condition. Love cannot be willed.

Some people can incorporate a loving God with massive suffering, I am just not one of those people because I consider it illogical that a loving God who is also omnipotent would just allow people to suffer. I am sure many people suffer a lot more than I do, which only proves my point even more. The Christian God of love is not a God I know.

What is the *evidence* that God is just, gracious and merciful? What is the *evidence* that God is loving? Can you provide any evidence other than what is written in the scriptures? Unfortunately, that does not align with what we see in the world, and that is the problem I have. I cannot believe something that does not make sense just because it is in the scriptures.

I do not see how anyone can make sense of suffering in this world, if there is no afterlife. If there is no afterlife, there is no justice for those who have suffered so much in this world, through no fault of their own. Maybe some people who see no need for an afterlife have not suffered very much or hardly at all. I know there are such people who by their own admission have had happy lives and have never been depressed. That is something I cannot even imagine, it is so foreign.

You said: “So I will act the same regardless. I am content to leave the afterlife in God's just, gracious, and merciful hands.”

Acting the same regardless of whether you get a reward in heaven or saved from hell is an important Baha’i principle as this passage demonstrates:

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78​

I know you didn't direct your post at me, but, if you don't mind, I'd like to say a few words here.

You've been very open-hearted, Trailblazer, and brave to divulge such personal information.

I did not receive Christ until I was in my early twenties. I had been encouraged to read the New Testament and, sitting alone in my room, I came across a passage in John's Gospel that said, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' [John 15:13]

I sat and pondered this short saying of Jesus. Then it suddenly made sense. To die for your friends is the ultimate sacrifice, and this is what Jesus did for ME and YOU! It's personal and true. He actually gave his life, that YOU, Trailblazer, might not die!

It's not about our love, which is weak. It's about the love of God, which is faithful and true. Jesus loves you in a very personal way. And to prove his love he says, Let me come to your house and sup with you. Jesus wants to get really intimate with you (by the Holy Spirit) because he loves you!

When I was baptized in the Holy Spirit I realized the beauty and truth of his Word. He broke through the hardness of my heart and dwelt with me. And now I know Him. I know his love. I know his Word.

Did you also know that to receive Jesus in this way, through repentance and faith, brings great blessing. Believers are promised both powers and fruits from the Spirit. I can vouch for this, because not only has my own life been revolutionized but I have been able to pray for others and see healing and change. In fact, after a while I started to ask people to write down their testimonies in order to glorify the Lord for his wonderful works!

Trailblazer, if you trust in Jesus Christ alone, He will come to you and prove Himself. He will transform your life. Given all that you have suffered, are you not willing to ask, to seek and to knock?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Oh sorry.

I will let God worry about the afterlife. My thing is to obey God and to draw close to him through prayer. That happens the same regardless of what happens in the afterlife, or even there is no afterlife.

Let's say there is transmigration of the soul. I would want to keep the commandments in order not to have to come back and do so.

Let's say that there is a heaven/hell. I would want to obey God and draw close to him.

Let's say that Gehenna (a temporary hell for purification, for the coming resurrection). I would want to obey the commandments so that I would go through less purification after death.

Let's say that there is only Sheol, the grave. I know this may be a strange thought to Christians, but I would still want to obey God and draw near to him. Why? First, because he is the almighty Creator and the God of Israel, to whom I bow. He is Avinu Malkeinu, our father our king, who loves me and seeks the best for me -- shall I not pay that back? And my life will be healthier, happier, longer, and more meaningful if I join a synagogue and practice Judaism.

So I will act the same regardless. I am content to leave the afterlife in God's just, gracious, and merciful hands.

God IS concerned about the afterlife! So much so, that He has acted already! In his grace and mercy He has sent his only Son into the world to save sinners from death, and to offer eternal life to all that would receive Him. But Jesus Christ says clearly, I am the resurrection and the life. [John11:25]

So maybe by acting the same regardless, you are actually ignoring what God has done to help. It's like the joke about the man hanging on a cliff edge who refuses all help while he awaits for God to act; only to die and be told that all the helpers were sent by God!!

 

[Trailblazer]

No, I was actually thinking about God and His Word. If the Word of God resides in God and is sent forth from God, how can it be distinguished from God?

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.' [John 1:1]
Verse 14. 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

The Word was with the Father. [1 John 1:1-2]
The Word was God. [John 1:1-3]
The Word was made flesh. [John 1:14]
God speaks the Word by His Son. [Hebrews 1:1-2]
Jesus Christ is the Word of God. [Revelation 19:13]

This all points to one conclusion - that Jesus Christ, in being the Word of God, must also be God.

Now, you might say, My word is not always true, and does not reflect me! But we know that God's Word is ALWAYS true, and is therefore a perfect reflection of HIMSELF.

God's Word is always true, but there is more than one interpretation of God's Word.

Here is my interpretation. In the beginning was God and the Word was with God. Then when Jesus was manifested in the flesh, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh but rather that the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus, who was flesh.

“As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness.” Some Answered Questions, p. 206​

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you didn't direct your post at me, but, if you don't mind, I'd like to say a few words here.

You've been very open-hearted, Trailblazer, and brave to divulge such personal information.

I did not receive Christ until I was in my early twenties. I had been encouraged to read the New Testament and, sitting alone in my room, I came across a passage in John's Gospel that said, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' [John 15:13]

I sat and pondered this short saying of Jesus. Then it suddenly made sense. To die for your friends is the ultimate sacrifice, and this is what Jesus did for ME and YOU! It's personal and true. He actually gave his life, that YOU, Trailblazer, might not die!

It's not about our love, which is weak. It's about the love of God, which is faithful and true. Jesus loves you in a very personal way. And to prove his love he says, Let me come to your house and sup with you. Jesus wants to get really intimate with you (by the Holy Spirit) because he loves you!

When I was baptized in the Holy Spirit I realized the beauty and truth of his Word. He broke through the hardness of my heart and dwelt with me. And now I know Him. I know his love. I know his Word.

Did you also know that to receive Jesus in this way, through repentance and faith, brings great blessing. Believers are promised both powers and fruits from the Spirit. I can vouch for this, because not only has my own life been revolutionized but I have been able to pray for others and see healing and change. In fact, after a while I started to ask people to write down their testimonies in order to glorify the Lord for his wonderful works!

Trailblazer, if you trust in Jesus Christ alone, He will come to you and prove Himself. He will transform your life. Given all that you have suffered, are you not willing to ask, to seek and to knock?

Baha’u’llah also sacrificed His whole life for all of humanity so everyone who believes in Him would have eternal life of the soul, not of the body.

You cannot say that Jesus sacrificed His life if you also believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead... Do you understand what I mean?

My point in the post to IndigoChild was that you just believe what scriptures SAY that Jesus said and did. Moreover Jesus is not doing anything right now. Jesus is not here, nor is God. You just imagine that He is because the scriptures say so. I guess this is called faith, but I cannot base my beliefs upon faith, I base them upon reason.

You say that the love of God is faithful and true, but you have no proof of that except what is written in scriptures, which were not even written by Jesus Himself.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Baha’is believe the same thing Christians do about the love of God, so I am atypical. I argue with my husband who is a Baha’i constantly about this, because he insists that because Baha’u’llah wrote certain things that must mean God loves us, but I just do not see that love manifested in the world. All I see is suffering. What kind of a God is this that loves and stands by watching? I guess I have been talking to atheists too long but they make some good points.

So you actually believe that your life was revolutionized by your beliefs. I consider that really naïve. Peoples’ lives are what they are for many reasons, many of which are outside of their control. Just believing in something, anything, is not going to change peoples’ lives. I consider that magical thinking. Moreover it is highly illogical because many Christians turned it over to Jesus and they still suffer in their lives; so just because YOU have had certain blessings does not mean if someone else just does what you did, they will have the same blessings bestowed upon them.

This whole belief that Christians have that we must put our faith in Jesus Christ alone is not supported by any biblical scriptures. Jesus said no one came to the Father but by Him but that was only true during His dispensation. Jesus never said no one comes to the Father but by me *for all time.* Christians just interpreted the verse to mean that it applied to all time, but now we know that other Manifestations of God have come since Jesus so we know people can come to God via Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.

I do appreciate that you are a very sincere person who cares about bringing people to Jesus, but I already have Jesus and I also have Baha’u’llah. There is no *reason* I cannot have both.

By the way, I listen to Christian radio for three hours a day while riding my bike to work and back so I am really with the Spirit.... I certainly understand why you love Jesus, I love Him too. I am just not so sure about God.

God so loved the world that He gave His only Son translates to me as --- Jesus so loved the world that He sacrificed Himself for all of humanity. It was Jesus who sacrificed, not God. God does not need a Son because God does not have needs, God is fully self-sufficient.

 

[Trailblazer]

We're down near Hell according to the Tanakh, and Yeshua; Judaism and Christianity therefore are in categoric denial of the data, like many other religious traditions down here.

Agreed.

Therefore Yeshua's (Salvation's) parent the God Most High (CPU) sustaining life is unconditionally loving, as most of us down here near Hell should have been removed at the beginning; yet the CPU is giving us time to come to understanding through afflictions.

Agreed. Baha'u'llah also wrote something like that about how we all deserve to be removed, but God is giving us a little more time.

“We have a fixed time for you, O peoples. If ye fail, at the appointed hour, to turn towards God, He, verily, will lay violent hold on you, and will cause grievous afflictions to assail you from every direction. How severe, indeed, is the chastisement with which your Lord will then chastise you!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 214​

Somewhere in my consciousness I know God is unconditionally loving, but depression can pay mean tricks on me. In the Bahai Long Obligatory prayer it says: ".... by the fire of whose love the whole world hath been set aflame."

The CPU interacts with all of us individually down here, it is trying to reprogram all of us through many methods; yet many of us are so stubborn, we're not seeing it, and some are even now going the opposite way.

Agreed. Back in the 1960s, one of the Hands of the Cause of God, Bill Sears, said that mankind is like a stubborn mule so God has to hit mankind upside to try to get his attention.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I just wanted to say I think you are much more spiritual than I am. So I am going to tell you a few things about me because I find that people as spiritual as you can be trusted with the feelings of others. When I say spiritual, I also mean God-fearing.

I do not have a very good attitude towards God. I definitely want to *obey God* and I try to follow the teachings and Laws of Baha’u’llah, and I take my religion very seriously, maybe too seriously. However, I do not love God. In fact, I blame God for much of the suffering in the world... Please do not think that I am any example of the average Baha’i. I do not know any other Baha’is who feel the way I do about God, but I also don’t know any who have suffered as much as I have, although I am sure there are some. My entire life has been and still is constant suffering, not because of anything I have done wrong or because I have not tried to get help. It just is this way, and every time I think I might have a break in my suffering, more suffering comes barreling at me. It never ends. I am not really sure how much more I can take. Does God even care or is this some kind of experiment to see how far He can push me before I go over the edge?

The last thing I need is people telling me that if only I loved God, God would help me. If I have to love God before I get help from God that is not a just God, because an omniscient God knows I cannot love Him in my present condition. Love cannot be willed.

Some people can incorporate a loving God with massive suffering, I am just not one of those people because I consider it illogical that a loving God who is also omnipotent would just allow people to suffer. I am sure many people suffer a lot more than I do, which only proves my point even more. The Christian God of love is not a God I know.

What is the *evidence* that God is just, gracious and merciful? What is the *evidence* that God is loving? Can you provide any evidence other than what is written in the scriptures? Unfortunately, that does not align with what we see in the world, and that is the problem I have. I cannot believe something that does not make sense just because it is in the scriptures.

I do not see how anyone can make sense of suffering in this world, if there is no afterlife. If there is no afterlife, there is no justice for those who have suffered so much in this world, through no fault of their own. Maybe some people who see no need for an afterlife have not suffered very much or hardly at all. I know there are such people who by their own admission have had happy lives and have never been depressed. That is something I cannot even imagine, it is so foreign.

You said: “So I will act the same regardless. I am content to leave the afterlife in God's just, gracious, and merciful hands.”

Acting the same regardless of whether you get a reward in heaven or saved from hell is an important Baha’i principle as this passage demonstrates:

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78​

Dearest Gentle Soul,

It is true that life is to suffer, to suffer at the hands of nature, to suffer from the sins of others, and to suffer because of our poor choices. Nor is the distribution equal; one child grows up with a silver spoon, while another eats food from a garbage dump, infested with parasites. As when person softly told me when I revealed my life of great suffering, "It rains on everyone, but some people live in Seattle."

It's okay if you are hurt and angry. God is big enough to handle the fists we throw at him. The one thing I learned from studying the Tanakh, is that those people who were closest to God argued with him. Indeed, Abraham was so insistent, that he got God to agree to not destroy Sodom and Gemorrah if there even ten righteous people there.

I do not think any religion or denomination offers a sufficient answer to the problem of why good people suffer.

Are you familiar with the book of Job? Job was innocent of sin yet suffered so much at the hands of the Adversary. At the end of the story, God appears to Job. Now if there were ever a time and place and person for God explaining the problem of unjust suffering, it would be then. But no! God doesn't answer the question of why good people suffer. What God gave to Job, instead of the answer, was the Answerer.

If you had to choose between the intellectual understanding of why there is suffering, or having an encounter with God which gave you peace, which would you choose? I know I'd rather have the Answerer than the answer. The answer is not going to comfort me when I'm in pain, or when life seems overwhelming. (Believe me I've LIVED there.) So I know I haven't given you the answer. But I hope I have given you something else -- hope for peace.

I think, personally, the reason we are not told why there is suffering, is that basically it is too far out of our ability to understand. When a parent takes their toddler in for a vaccination, it is for the ultimate benefit for the child. But when the child feels the pain, it weeps and weeps, and on his face is the look of having been betrayed. It breaks every parent's heart -- I was near to tears with my kids. But you can't not vaccinate them or you risk something so much worse. All you can do is comfort them when they cry -- to be with them in their suffering. God does this for me. He is with me with every tear I cry and ever fist that I throw. My loving Father asks me to trust that he knows what's best.

Sometimes that' too much to do. And I mean that. Sometimes you just can't. He understands that.

You say you are worried about breaking beneath the painful load. I HAVE. I roll my eyes at people who say you are never given more than you can handle. I've ended up in a psych ward, after not sleeping for days, crying uncontrollably for hours and hours. I was so out of my mind that I would pace up and down the hall talking to myself. Do you know what stinks? When life is so harsh, and you want to at least get a break from it by sleeping, but you have nightmares all night long. It's deep drain--no rest for the weary as my mother used to say. It was a week after this, that I was sitting on the floor of the hall, asking God why. And then he came. Not a whirlwind for me. A soft gentle peace. After this experience, I know I will make it through anything.

Another thing I'd like to say is that suffering is an opportunity. Now I'm not saying that I want anyone to suffer. I certainly don't want to. I don't want you to suffer either. But as long as we are stuck with it, good can come from it. It's like labor pains before childbirth. Basically, suffering gives us the opportunity to become wise. Now not everyone who suffers becomes wise -- they become bitter rather than better. But all those who are wise have suffered. Suffering is the the incredible heat and pressure than turns mere graphite into diamonds.

I am after that. I want to offer my life to God 100% -- absolutely nothing held back. I want to be wise, I want to be a Tzadik (a saint). I don't know if I'll ever make it. I've improved greatly, but after more than 50 years, sometimes I despair that I'm still struggling with the same character flaws as ever. But I know that I have at least a fighting chance for it -- because I have suffered so much.

Here is one of the things suffering has done for me:
It has given me intense gratitude for small things, and for when things are going well. I don't take things for granted. There are so many bad times, that it makes the good times special. To be able to afford an ice cream cone. To have the hot sun in the summer time, and the cold oblique rays of winter. To have a pillow under my head at night. To have my grand daughter hold my hand. To have the sun rise up each morning bringing a brand new day with hope and promise.

Finally, I think there is a lot to be said for switching hats. No matter how bad off we are, there are always those worse off. Helping them out switches us from being the victims, into being the saviors. Someone once told me, "I complained to God about all the hurting people in the world. He said, that's why I sent you."

I hope all these things can be mulled over by you with time. Change in outlook doesn't come quickly. It's taken me decades to come out of victim mode to realize that happiness is not dependent on my health, or whether I always eat, or even if I can get out of my bed to use the bathroom. It comes from deep inside me, from that well of peace. I feel like my life has been a quest. I've been through many trials. I've seen things which have scarred me. But I made it to the Lonely Mountain, and found the Arkenstone within. I am rich. I wish this for you too, my friend, with all of my heart.

Don't worry about the cracks -- it's how the light gets in. (Origin unknown_

 

[wizanda]

you have nightmares all night long.

If having nightmares again, cannabis can blanket our dreams, whilst still allowing us to sleep properly.

In my opinion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

God is worried about the afterlife! So much so, that He has acted already! In his grace and mercy He has sent his only Son into the world to save sinners from death, and to offer eternal life to all that would receive Him. But Jesus Christ says clearly, I am the resurrection and the life. [John11:25]

So maybe by acting the same regardless, you are actually ignoring what God has done to help. It's like the joke about the man hanging on a cliff edge who refuses all help while he awaits for God to act; only to die and be told that all the helpers were sent by God!!

Apparently, according to Christianity, God is so concerned about the afterlife that he is willing to send to hell people who have never learned about Jesus, and people who apparently through no fault of their own are confused about him. If God wants to save me by grace, he is welcome to. But it means forgiving me of the sins that I'm not even aware are sins. It means understanding all my confusion (our minds are such pea brains) and forgiving me those mistakes of belief I make.

Otherwise he is not a God worth serving.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If having nightmares again, cannabis can blanket our dreams, whilst still allowing us to sleep properly.

In my opinion.

I usually don't have nightmares. I had unending nightmares during the psychotic break that I described.

 

[Muffled]

The Holy Spirit is not a Person. It is the Bounty of God.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit tells anyone anything. The Holy Spirit is sent by God to Manifestations of God and then they release it to all of humanity.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal prophecy.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of human bodies.

If the Holy Spirit was living inside of Christians and talking to them, it is not telling them the same things so it is contradicting itself.

That is not fallacious logic. It is sound logic.

I believe that is not evident in the Bible and I wouldn't believe anything a religious philosopher had to say about it.

I believe the Biblical text says that He does.

I believe there is no Biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit is sent by a manifestation.

I believe you are stating that I am a liar. If you don't believe the testimony of God then you are left with your own disfunctional thinking.

I believe Jesus says it can.

I believe my experience is fairly rare but many people will say things that are from their own philosophy so of course that will be different.

It would be sound if your premise were true but you premise is not true. If everyone who had the Holy Spirit were led by the Spirit as I am then we would all say the same thing but not everyone who has the Holy Spirit is led by the Spirit. My pastor can point to a time when God called Him to be a pastor. He was being led by the Holy Spirit but we disagree on many things because most of the time he is leaning on his education and his own understanding.