How Paul changed the course of Christianity

[Redemptionsong]

• But we are talking about the messiah prophesied to rule at the end of time. We WILL recognize this messiah, because he will fulfill the messianic prophesies:

1. He will bring back all the Jews to the promised Land.
2. He will physically rule from David's throne.
3. He will bring literal world wide peace.

Hi IndigoChild,
In which post did you provide all this information before?!

So am I correct in thinking that you cannot recognize the Messiah until AFTER he becomes ruler, brings world peace, and returns Jews to the promised land?

What I am interested to know is what will lead you to choose the man BEFORE his anointing as Messiah?

Did Samuel not have to choose and anoint David before he became king?

 

[Trailblazer]

'For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'" [Peter 1:21]

How could the books of the New Testament have been revealed without the Holy Spirit being actively involved? The Holy Spirit does these things within the Church.

Teach you all things
Call to remembrance what Jesus said
Testify of Jesus
Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
Guide you into all truth
Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

I can understand that the Holy Spirit could do these things within the Church, which you call the Body of Christ, meaning “saved” Christians who belong to the Church. But it is happening through people who belong to that Body, not through a disembodied Spirit.

“After His bodily ascension, Christ continues His work in the world through those He has redeemed—the Church now demonstrates the love of God clearly, tangibly, and boldly. In this way, the Church functions as “the Body of Christ.”” How is the church the Body of Christ?​

Trailblazer, you say 'The Comforter was sent when God sent Jesus who brought the Holy Spirit, and that is why the verse reads as it does: “the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit] that Jesus brought to humanity.'

YOU HAVE ADDED YOUR OWN WORDS IN BOLD, and they CHANGE THE MEANING.

Scripture says, The Comforter IS the Holy Spirit. You are saying, The Comforter brought the Holy Spirit. This is quite different.

Okay, I understand what you mean... Let me try this again....

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

It was the Holy Spirit teaching all things through Baha’u’llah. A disembodied Holy Spirit cannot do anything on earth. The Holy Spirit has to work through a Person or persons, as it works through the Body of Christ, or it has to be SENT from a Soul who has ascended to heaven, as it is sent from Jesus whose Soul is in heaven.

Jesus is “called” the Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through Jesus.
Baha’u’llah is “called” the Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through Baha’u’llah.

More than one thing can be true, and these are not mutually exclusive. In other words, the Holy Spirit can come to humanity in more than one way. Since Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, like rays of the sun, God being the sun. God can send it whenever and however God chooses to do so....

So I agree that Jesus was at the right hand of His Father in heaven when the Holy Spirit was SENT from heaven at Pentecost, but did Jesus not ALSO receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism? Did it not descend upon Jesus “like a Dove” and wasn’t it God who SENT it to Jesus? That means there was more than one event involving Jesus and the Holy Spirit, right?

A similar thing happened to Muhammad and Baha’u’llah as happened to Jesus at baptism. The Holy Spirit came to Muhammad by way of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit came to Baha’u’llah in by way of a Maiden of heaven. Baha’u’llah explains this experience:

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon Mycouch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57​

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90​

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104​

Then, after the Soul of Baha’u’llah ascended to heaven, He joined Jesus and Muhammad and the other Manifestations of God in the Supreme Concourse, and from heaven Baha’u’llah and the Supreme Concourse have continued to send the Holy Spirit to earth. (That is my understanding but another Baha’i can correct me if I am wrong).

Just as Christians believe that Jesus is in heaven assisting those in the Body of Christ, Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is assisting the Baha’is from heaven. The difference is that we believe that all the Manifestations of God are working together in the Concourse on high (Supreme Concourse) and there are favored angels assisting them. That is why in the Writings of Baha’u’llah He often prefaces His statements with “We” rather than “I.”

Didn’t Jesus tell His disciples not to be dismayed when He ascended to heaven, because He would always be with them? Well, Baha’u’llah said the same thing...

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

Christ Jesus did not BRING the HOLY SPIRIT to humanity. He was sat at the right hand of His father in heaven when the Holy Spirit was SENT. That means that Jesus was not physically present on Earth when the Holy Spirit descended. According to you, Baha'u'llah, Muhammad and Jesus have to be present to deliver the Holy Spirit, as in a teaching.

In fact, maybe you could explain how the Manifestations of God deliver the Holy Spirit. Is it in words of wisdom?

But wasn’t Jesus present on earth when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a Dove at baptism? The Holy Spirit descends upon the Manifestations of God as noted above, and then they release the Holy Spirit. It is released in the world as the result their coming and being in the world and doing what they do on their respective missions. Yes, it comes through their words, just as it came through the Words of Jesus, but it also comes through their actions, their Being. Baha’u’llah explained the effects of the Holy Spirit that Jesus released into the world:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can understand that the Holy Spirit could do these things within the Church, which you call the Body of Christ, meaning “saved” Christians who belong to the Church. But it is happening through people who belong to that Body, not through a disembodied Spirit.

“After His bodily ascension, Christ continues His work in the world through those He has redeemed—the Church now demonstrates the love of God clearly, tangibly, and boldly. In this way, the Church functions as “the Body of Christ.”” How is the church the Body of Christ?​

Okay, I understand what you mean... Let me try this again....

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

It was the Holy Spirit teaching all things through Baha’u’llah. A disembodied Holy Spirit cannot do anything on earth. The Holy Spirit has to work through a Person or persons, as it works through the Body of Christ, or it has to be SENT from a Soul who has ascended to heaven, as it is sent from Jesus whose Soul is in heaven.

Jesus is “called” the Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through Jesus.
Baha’u’llah is “called” the Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through Baha’u’llah.

More than one thing can be true, and these are not mutually exclusive. In other words, the Holy Spirit can come to humanity in more than one way. Since Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, like rays of the sun, God being the sun. God can send it whenever and however God chooses to do so....

So I agree that Jesus was at the right hand of His Father in heaven when the Holy Spirit was SENT from heaven at Pentecost, but did Jesus not ALSO receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism? Did it not descend upon Jesus “like a Dove” and wasn’t it God who SENT it to Jesus? That means there was more than one event involving Jesus and the Holy Spirit, right?

A similar thing happened to Muhammad and Baha’u’llah as happened to Jesus at baptism. The Holy Spirit came to Muhammad by way of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit came to Baha’u’llah in by way of a Maiden of heaven. Baha’u’llah explains this experience:

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon Mycouch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57​

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90​

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104​

Then, after the Soul of Baha’u’llah ascended to heaven, He joined Jesus and Muhammad and the other Manifestations of God in the Supreme Concourse, and from heaven Baha’u’llah and the Supreme Concourse have continued to send the Holy Spirit to earth. (That is my understanding but another Baha’i can correct me if I am wrong).

Just as Christians believe that Jesus is in heaven assisting those in the Body of Christ, Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is assisting the Baha’is from heaven. The difference is that we believe that all the Manifestations of God are working together in the Concourse on high (Supreme Concourse) and there are favored angels assisting them. That is why in the Writings of Baha’u’llah He often prefaces His statements with “We” rather than “I.”

Didn’t Jesus tell His disciples not to be dismayed when He ascended to heaven, because He would always be with them? Well, Baha’u’llah said the same thing...

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

But wasn’t Jesus present on earth when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a Dove at baptism? The Holy Spirit descends upon the Manifestations of God as noted above, and then they release the Holy Spirit. It is released in the world as the result their coming and being in the world and doing what they do on their respective missions. Yes, it comes through their words, just as it came through the Words of Jesus, but it also comes through their actions, their Being. Baha’u’llah explained the effects of the Holy Spirit that Jesus released into the world:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

Yes, Trailblazer, you're right about the Holy Spirit descending from the Father to Jesus. But the point is that the anointing comes from heaven. It comes from the Father to Jesus because He is to be the Christ, and later from Jesus Christ to the disciples at Pentecost. It always comes from heaven in an order, Father - Son - Holy Spirit. It is never sent by men, only by God.

This is why I keep pressing you to decide whether a Manifestation of God IS IN ESSENCE GOD, or in ESSENCE MAN. Was Baha'u'llah born of a human mother and father? If so, he was a sinner.

All the prophets of the Old Testament were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit was always given by God for a specific message and purpose. When God wants to use these men, who through faith make themselves available to him, he covers them with his Holy Spirit. It is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that they are able to prophesy.

In Colossians 2:9 it says, 'For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.'

Acts 1:4,5: 'And [Jesus] being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. [See Luke 24:49]
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.' [Ten days after the Ascension, at Pentecost]

Jesus baptized his followers at Pentecost but no one individual believer can claim 'the fulness' of the Godhead bodily. The fulness of the Holy Spirit is spread amongst the whole body, 'dividing severally as he [the Spirit] will'.

1 Corinthians 12:11-14. 'But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing severally as he will.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.'

Baha'u'llah is not the one and only COMFORTER. There can be only one Comforter, because there is only one God. The one Comforter (Counsellor) is sent AMONGST and WITHIN.

By equating Baha'u'llah with the risen Christ, you are saying that he is God.

Either Baha'u'llah was a man and a sinner (until saved), or he was God. Which is it to be?

 

[Redemptionsong]

They deliver the Holy Spirit as a perfect reflection of God.

God is the Sun the Holy Spirit the rays from the sun and the Messengers are a perfect mirror.

Thus we see Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah (to name a few), all as the perfect mirror, chosen by God. They one and all are a perfect reflection of God. They are all the First and they are all the Last, the Beginning and the End.

It is the veils we place that filter the light and distort what we see.

Regards Tony

Hello Tony,
It all comes down to the same issue of sinfulness.
The perfect image of God must be God. The only person who can justifiably claim to be sinless, is the one whom God raised from the dead - Jesus Christ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, Trailblazer, you're right about the Holy Spirit descending from the Father to Jesus. But the point is that the anointing comes from heaven. It comes from the Father to Jesus because He is to be the Christ, and later from Jesus Christ to the disciples at Pentecost. It always comes from heaven in an order, Father - Son - Holy Spirit. It is never sent by men, only by God.

I never said it was “sent” by men. It cannot be sent by men because men do not have the Holy Spirit to send. I said that once the Holy Spirit is sent to a Manifestation of God such as Jesus, they release it into the world of humanity.

This is why I keep pressing you to decide whether a Manifestation of God IS IN ESSENCE GOD, or in ESSENCE MAN. Was Baha'u'llah born of a human mother and father? If so, he was a sinner.

What do you mean by sinner? What makes someone a sinner? Why do you think that Baha’u’llah is a sinner because He was born of a human mother and father?

All the prophets of the Old Testament were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit was always given by God for a specific message and purpose. When God wants to use these men, who through faith make themselves available to him, he covers them with his Holy Spirit. It is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that they are able to prophesy.

I am okay with that because it makes sense.

In Colossians 2:9 it says, 'For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.'

Acts 1:4,5: 'And [Jesus] being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. [See Luke 24:49]
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.' [Ten days after the Ascension, at Pentecost]

Jesus baptized his followers at Pentecost but no one individual believer can claim 'the fulness' of the Godhead bodily. The fulness of the Holy Spirit is spread amongst the whole body, 'dividing severally as he [the Spirit] will'.

1 Corinthians 12:11-14. 'But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing severally as he will.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.'

I guess you are saying that all of the Body of Christ is like one body, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit? That is somewhat similar to what Baha’u’llah said about the Baha’is while referring to the afterlife. We are as one soul although we all retain our own individual souls and our unique personalities.

“Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-170​

Baha'u'llah is not the one and only COMFORTER. There can be only one Comforter, because there is only one God. The one Comforter (Counsellor) is sent AMONGST and WITHIN.

I never said that Baha’u’llah was the one and only Comforter. I said Jesus was the Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter. The Comforter is just a title for the one to whom God sends the Holy Spirit.

There can be more than one Comforter because God can send the Holy Spirit to more than one man (Manifestation of God) in different ages in history.

By equating Baha'u'llah with the risen Christ, you are saying that he is God.

The significance of the risen Christ (the bodily resurrection) really needs to be clarified for me. You also need to clarify how the resurrection is connected to Jesus being sinless.

Jesus was the Son of God and Baha’u’llah was the Glory of God who came in the station of the Father, but neither one was God incarnate because God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. Both Jesus and Baha’u’llah were Manifestations of God.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

Either Baha'u'llah was a man and a sinner (until saved), or he was God. Which is it to be?

Baha’u’llah was not a man or God. He was a Manifestation of God. Manifestations define Truth and also the Will of God. They are also protected from sin.

Baha’u’llah did not need to be saved because there is nothing to be saved from. I do not believe there is any such thing as original sin. I believe this is the biggest deception that has ever been perpetrated upon humanity. It has done more damage to humanity than any other single belief in the history of religion.If you want to read the Baha’i interpretation of the Adam and Eve story, I suggest you read this short chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hi IndigoChild,
In which post did you provide all this information before?!

So am I correct in thinking that you cannot recognize the Messiah until AFTER he becomes ruler, brings world peace, and returns Jews to the promised land?

What I am interested to know is what will lead you to choose the man BEFORE his anointing as Messiah?

Did Samuel not have to choose and anoint David before he became king?

An example of a post where I listed these three criteria would be How many gentiles did Jesus convert to his religion?

What we have found in a long icky history of false messiahs is that when we try to figure out if someone is the messiah before they fulfill all the prophecies, we run the risk of making terrible horrible mistakes. So we just don't do it any more (Chabadniks excepted, God love 'em).

Samuel was a prophet of God. There can only be prophets when the majority of the People of Israel live in the Land, and that has not been true since Judah was carried into captivity. There is therefore no one since that time who could, as a prophet, discern the messiah in the manner you are suggesting.

I may WONDER if this man or that man (no one at the present time) might turn out to be the messiah. But I won't KNOW until he does all the messiah stuff. So that's pretty firm.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hello Tony,
It all comes down to the same issue of sinfulness.
The perfect image of God must be God. The only person who can justifiably claim to be sinless, is the one whom God raised from the dead - Jesus Christ.

I would see that Christ is all Gods Messengers, as Christ does say He will write upon all those that accept, a new name.

Names can become veils to the Spirit that is Christ. This is found in the teaching that John was Elijah. It is the same Spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist. It is the Christ Spirit that is in all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

An example of a post where I listed these three criteria would be How many gentiles did Jesus convert to his religion?

What we have found in a long icky history of false messiahs is that when we try to figure out if someone is the messiah before they fulfill all the prophecies, we run the risk of making terrible horrible mistakes. So we just don't do it any more (Chabadniks excepted, God love 'em).

Samuel was a prophet of God. There can only be prophets when the majority of the People of Israel live in the Land, and that has not been true since Judah was carried into captivity. There is therefore no one since that time who could, as a prophet, discern the messiah in the manner you are suggesting.

I may WONDER if this man or that man (no one at the present time) might turn out to be the messiah. But I won't KNOW until he does all the messiah stuff. So that's pretty firm.

Good Morning,
I'm glad to hear that it's not my memory that's failing me! I don't believe I was involved in your previous post on these issues.

Surely, saying that you would prefer to wait and see what materializes, is really not a safe way forward either. Inaction and passivity can be as much against God's will as acts of disobedience. Was the accusation of inaction not made against the German people when anti-Semitic ideas were being propagated during Hitler's Third Reich?

Another point worth considering is the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. Would a rebuilding of the Temple not put pressure on worldwide Jewry to return to the land of Israel? Are Jewish men not under an obligation to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year for the festivals of Pesach, Shavuot and Sukkot?

And, as much as you, and other Jews, may not wish to be a part of a new movement that ushers in a false messiah, even your vote within a democratic system of government may influence the arrival of such a person.

More to the point, maybe your rejection of Jesus as the Servant born on earth is leading you to look for a human being who will inevitably turn out to be a false messiah!

My reading of the New Testament suggests that there will be many false messiahs arriving, some performing amazing feats that even deceive the elect. The Antichrist himself will be the most terrible of all these false messiahs. He, we are told, will set up the 'abomination of desolation' in the holy place.

Matthew 24: 21,22. ' For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.'

Verse 27. 'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.'

So, maybe Jews living under the law should be looking upwards, instead of looking round and about for a descendant of David. Maybe the days of grace are coming to an end.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I never said it was “sent” by men. It cannot be sent by men because men do not have the Holy Spirit to send. I said that once the Holy Spirit is sent to a Manifestation of God such as Jesus, they release it into the world of humanity.

What do you mean by sinner? What makes someone a sinner? Why do you think that Baha’u’llah is a sinner because He was born of a human mother and father?

I am okay with that because it makes sense.

I guess you are saying that all of the Body of Christ is like one body, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit? That is somewhat similar to what Baha’u’llah said about the Baha’is while referring to the afterlife. We are as one soul although we all retain our own individual souls and our unique personalities.

“Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-170​

I never said that Baha’u’llah was the one and only Comforter. I said Jesus was the Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter. The Comforter is just a title for the one to whom God sends the Holy Spirit.

There can be more than one Comforter because God can send the Holy Spirit to more than one man (Manifestation of God) in different ages in history.

The significance of the risen Christ (the bodily resurrection) really needs to be clarified for me. You also need to clarify how the resurrection is connected to Jesus being sinless.

Jesus was the Son of God and Baha’u’llah was the Glory of God who came in the station of the Father, but neither one was God incarnate because God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. Both Jesus and Baha’u’llah were Manifestations of God.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

Baha’u’llah was not a man or God. He was a Manifestation of God. Manifestations define Truth and also the Will of God. They are also protected from sin.

Baha’u’llah did not need to be saved because there is nothing to be saved from. I do not believe there is any such thing as original sin. I believe this is the biggest deception that has ever been perpetrated upon humanity. It has done more damage to humanity than any other single belief in the history of religion.If you want to read the Baha’i interpretation of the Adam and Eve story, I suggest you read this short chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Okay, Trailblazer, I hope I'm right in saying that you want to distinguish between the Holy Spirit being SENT by God and being RELEASED by a Manifestation of God. But I don't see any difference.

In both cases the SPIRIT is moving. I believe only God, Holy Spirit, is able to generate this movement OF HIMSELF. God can bestow the Holy Spirit [as at Pentecost], and he can take it away [as when Adam transgressed]. A Manifestation of God, unless it is Jesus Christ, does not have the power to bestow the Holy Spirit in response to his/her will.

We then return to the definition of SINNER provided by the scriptures.
Psalm 51:5. 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.'
Isaiah 59: 1-4. Verse 4. 'None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.'
Romans 3: 9-12. 'What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.'
1 Kings 8:46. 'If they sin against thee (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them....'
Genesis 6:12. 'And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.'
1 John 1:8. 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'

So I guess, based on scripture, Baha'u'llah must have been deceiving himself if he thought he had no sin. Or, should we place responsibility for these false claims on the followers of Baha'u'llah, Muhammad etc?

There is only one God. If God is the Comforter, then 'another Comforter' must also be OF God's Spirit. This is why Christians refer to God as a trinity; as Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Above, Amongst and Within). Jesus Christ, the Comforter, sends His Spirit, which is called 'another Comforter'. It is still God's Spirit, or the spirit of Christ, that is sent; not a human being that you call a 'Manifestation of God'.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I would see that Christ is all Gods Messengers, as Christ does say He will write upon all those that accept, a new name.

Names can become veils to the Spirit that is Christ. This is found in the teaching that John was Elijah. It is the same Spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist. It is the Christ Spirit that is in all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

From the day of Pentecost onwards, the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) was made available to all who would repent and have faith in Jesus Christ. The new name is written upon these believers today, and, as for all I know, Baha'u'llah may have believed in Jesus Christ, and through faith received the new birth.

But the claims that are being made by others on his behalf suggest that this is not the case. Moreover, what I have seen of his writings would suggest a quite different set of beliefs.

The crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus had to occur for the Holy Spirit to be given (forming the Body of Christ on earth).

 

[Muffled]

Go on ahead and explain how the indwelt Holy Spirit has taught you all things, called to remembrance what Jesus said, testified of Jesus, glorified Jesus, received of Jesus, and shewed it unto you, guided you into all truth, spoke what He heard and shewed you things to come, and reproved the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.

Don’t only explain it, provide the evidence.

I believe there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest the possibility that the Spirit of God lives inside of human bodies and talks to them. If it did, there would not be so many contradictory Christian beliefs since God does not contradict Himself. That is logic.

I believe you are mistaken. Just because the Holy Spirit does all those things doesn't mean that He does them for everyone to that extent but only that it is available. My experience with The Holy Spirit is that He tells you what you need to know.

The Holy Spirit gave me a personal prophecy that was fulfilled.

I believe I am evidence to the contrary that He does exist in me.

I believe that is illogical. There are a lot of reasons why people disagree that have nothing to do with God. I believe you are quite correct that God does not contradict Himself.

I believe that is fallacious logic.

 

[Muffled]

Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar." New International Version

Paul made his defense: "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar, have I sinned in anything." Berean Literal Bible

while Paul said in his own defense, "I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." New American Standard Bible

All of them mean the same thing: Jewish law was not broken.


Judaizers means something very specific:: a Jew who insists that Gentile believers must be circumcized and come under the Law (IOW become Jews). At the Council of Jerusalem there were Judaizers present, arguing for this.

Jewish believers in Jesus who are "zealous for Torah" BUT not trying to force it on Gentile believers were not "Judaizers."

I believe that does not mean that he kept the law. It does not mean that he didn't do things contrary to the law. However I will grant that Paul may have been speaking specifically about the event that caused him to be taken into custody.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From the day of Pentecost onwards, the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) was made available to all who would repent and have faith in Jesus Christ. The new name is written upon these believers today, and, as far as I know, Baha'u'llah may have believed in Jesus Christ, and through faith received the new birth.

But the claims that are being made by others on his behalf suggest that this is not the case.

The crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus had to occur for the Holy Spirit to be given (forming the Body of Christ on earth).

You would be saying that the Holy Spirit was not available to anyone before Jesus walked this earth.

Jesus the Christ said the Flesh amounts to not a thing, it is the Spirit that is life.

As for Baha'u'llah my view is that He is the New Name, the Spirit of Turth promised by Christ to guide us unto all Truth. Christ the Son is the same Spirit as Baha'u'llah the Father.

I see the false prophets are within Christianity and started way back in the 4 century, when a doctrine was made called the Trinity. Since then words and meanings have been added to the bible at will. All that was foretold in prophecy. To find the deception, it is the Christain that must look long and hard at what has come of a world embracing message, that was given by Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

You would be saying that the Holy Spirit was not available to anyone before Jesus walked this earth.

Jesus the Christ said the Flesh amounts to not a thing, it is the Spirit that is life.

As for Baha'u'llah my view is that He is the New Name, the Spirit of Turth promised by Christ to guide us unto all Truth. Christ the Son is the same Spirit as Baha'u'llah the Father.

I see the false prophets are within Christianity and started way back in the 4 century, when a doctrine was made called the Trinity. Since then words and meanings have been added to the bible at will. All that was foretold in prophecy. To find the deception, it is the Christain that must look long and hard at what has come of a world embracing message, that was given by Christ.

Regards Tony

Good Evening, Tony.
No, I would NOT be saying that the Holy Spirit was unavailable before Pentecost. It was available to prophets, and others, and it gave them inspiration to speak forth God's Word.
2 Peter 1:21. 'For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'

What I am saying is that the New Testament does not begin until Pentecost. The free availability of the Holy Spirit, or the baptism that Jesus Christ came to bring, started at Pentecost.

To make the difference in dispensation clear, Jesus said this about John the Baptist,
'For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.'

Those that are in the kingdom of God are those that have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In other words, this means that they have repented and placed their complete trust in Jesus. Interestingly, Jesus says that a born-again believer is greater than John the Baptist because the believer abides in the Body of Christ. How amazing is that?!

 

[Redemptionsong]

You would be saying that the Holy Spirit was not available to anyone before Jesus walked this earth.

Jesus the Christ said the Flesh amounts to not a thing, it is the Spirit that is life.

As for Baha'u'llah my view is that He is the New Name, the Spirit of Turth promised by Christ to guide us unto all Truth. Christ the Son is the same Spirit as Baha'u'llah the Father.

I see the false prophets are within Christianity and started way back in the 4 century, when a doctrine was made called the Trinity. Since then words and meanings have been added to the bible at will. All that was foretold in prophecy. To find the deception, it is the Christain that must look long and hard at what has come of a world embracing message, that was given by Christ.

Regards Tony

As concerning the Trinity, I am quite happy to demonstrate from the scriptures that the doctrine is a sound one.

On the topic of false prophets, I am quite sure that many false prophets have arisen from within the established Christian Churches. My position is not to act as an apologist for all who call themselves Christian, but to argue the case for an inerrant Word of God (both written and living).

My concern for those who call themselves Baha'is is that they have embraced a Messiah figure who is himself a false prophet (rather like Muhammad).

There are some key tests that should help us to eliminate false prophets, one being that God has chosen his literary prophets (those who pen the books of scripture) from amongst his OWN CHOSEN PEOPLE. In other words, God chose Israelites as his prophets, not people outside of the tribes of Israel. This automatically eliminates the likes of Muhammad and Baha'u'llah as the true literary prophets of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, Trailblazer, I hope I'm right in saying that you want to distinguish between the Holy Spirit being SENT by God and being RELEASED by a Manifestation of God. But I don't see any difference.

There is a big difference.

God SENDS the Holy Spirit to a Manifestation of God (e.g., Jesus, Baha’u’llah).

The Manifestation of God RELEASES the Holy Spirit into the world.

In both cases the SPIRIT is moving. I believe only God, Holy Spirit, is able to generate this movement OF HIMSELF. God can bestow the Holy Spirit [as at Pentecost], and he can take it away [as when Adam transgressed]. A Manifestation of God, unless it is Jesus Christ, does not have the power to bestow the Holy Spirit by their own will.

Any manifestation of God has the POWER to bestow the Holy Spirit by their own will. Jesus Christ is not any more special than any of the Manifestations of God in that regard. Sure, His Mission was special, but His capacities are the same as any other Manifestation of God.

We then return to the definition of SINNER provided by the scriptures.
Psalm 51:5. 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.'
Isaiah 59: 1-4. Verse 4. 'None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.'
Romans 3: 9-12. 'What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.'
1 Kings 8:46. 'If they sin against thee (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them....'
Genesis 6:12. 'And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.'
1 John 1:8. 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'

How is the definition of sinner relevant to this topic of the Holy Spirit?

So I guess, based on scripture, Baha'u'llah must have been deceiving himself if he thought he had no sin. Or, should we place responsibility for these false claims on the followers of Baha'u'llah, Muhammad etc?

It was not Baha’u’llah who said He had no sin; it was the Baha’is. Here are some excerpts from a Christian forum where Christians were discussing this with Baha’is:

Manifestations define Truth and also the Will of God. They are also protected from sin.

However the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the One Whose station is immeasurably exalted beyond ordinances or prohibitions and is sanctified from errors or omissions [Manifestations of God]. Indeed He is a Light which is not followed by darkness and a Truth not overtaken by error. Were He to pronounce water to be win or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore. Whosoever raiseth objections will be numbered with the froward in the Book of God, the Lord of the worlds. 'Verily He shall not be asked of His doings but all others shall be asked of their doings.' (cf. Qur'an 21:3) He is come from the invisible heaven, bearing the banner 'He doeth whatsoever He willeth' and is accompanied by hosts of power and authority while it is the duty of all besides Him to strictly observe whatever laws and ordinances have been enjoined upon them, and should anyone deviate therefrom, even to the extent of a hair's breadth, his work would be brought to naught.

Infallibility: An Essay

Bahá'u'lláh further explained this teaching in Splendors (Ishraqat), addressed to Jalil-iKhu'i, an early believer who inquired about the verse on infallibility in The Most Holy Book. In Splendors, Bahá'u'lláh states that the term infallibility has several possible meanings, and in its broadest sense can refer to anyone God has guarded from sin and transgression. However, Bahá'u'lláh continues, the most great infallibility is a special characteristic of those prophets of God who are exalted above ordinances and prohibitions.[50] This appears to be a reference to the prophets endowed with constancy, who as legislators are not bound by the laws of the previous dispensation. Not only are they protected from sin, but they are morally "sanctified above errors and omissions."[51] They are infallible sources of law and ethics, having the power to define the ethical for their own dispensations by virtue of their sinlessness and their revelatory intuition of the needs of their times. The most great infallibility as a doctrine, Bahá'u'lláh says, acts to protect his religion. He reiterates that no one can share in it other than the Self of God.[52] This phrase refers to the universal manifestation of God, who is the manifestation of the Self of God, as we shall see below.

The Concept of Manifestation in the Bahá'í Writings​

There is only one God. If God is the Comforter, then 'another Comforter' must also be OF God's Spirit.

There is only one God. God is not the Comforter.
Depending upon the context of a verse, the Comforter MEANS the Holy Spirit, but within another context it is a title used for the Manifestation of God to whom God SENT the Holy Spirit.

This is why Christians refer to God as a trinity; as Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Above, Amongst and Within).

Baha’is believe in a Trinity, since we believe in three entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. However, our understanding of the way these operate is different from the Christian understanding.

Here are some excerpts from what Abdu’l-Baha said in Some Answered Questions:

“God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror…….

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity.”

27: THE TRINITY, Some Answered Questions, pp. 113-115​

I suggest that you read that whole chapter by clicking on the link above, in order to FULLY understand the Baha’i understanding of the Trinity. The chapter is not very long.

Jesus Christ, the Comforter, sends His Spirit, which is called 'another Comforter'. It is still God's Spirit, or the spirit of Christ, that is sent; not a human being that you call a 'Manifestation of God'.

God sent His Spirit to Jesus Christ, who is called the Comforter.

God sent His Spirit to Baha’u’llah, who is called ‘another Comforter.’

It is still God’s Spirit that is sent, which is not the SAME as the Spirit of Christ, since Christ is not God, He is a Manifestation of God.

The soul of a Manifestation of God is SENT to earth from the heaven of the Will of God and it unites with His body when He is conceived, and then He is born and has a physical body, as Jesus was born from the womb of Mary.

 

[Trailblazer]

The crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus had to occur for the Holy Spirit to be given (forming the Body of Christ on earth).

Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

Those that are in the kingdom of God are those that have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In other words, this means that they have repented and placed their complete trust in Jesus. Interestingly, Jesus says that a born-again believer is greater than John the Baptist because the believer abides in the Body of Christ. How amazing is that?!

So, essentially what you are saying is that Jews and those of all the other religions who do not believe in Jesus are excluded from the Kingdom of God?

What about Muslims and Baha’is who believe in Jesus, only in a different way than you believe?

The Dispensation of Jesus Christ has been unconditionally abrogated by the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah. I know I am not going to convince you of that and it is not my responsibility because Baha’u’llah did not give me that responsibility. Rather, He wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself. My only responsibility is to proclaim that Baha’u’llah has come and to teach the Faith to those who show an interest.

Nevertheless, I feel it is my obligation to at least impart the information. What you do with it is entirely up to you.

During the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, those who believed in Jesus had everlasting life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were spiritually dead.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so history is repeating itself. Those who those who believe in Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life. I cannot say what will happen to everyone else because I am not God.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183​

“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169​

 

[Trailblazer]

My concern for those who call themselves Baha'is is that they have embraced a Messiah figure who is himself a false prophet (rather like Muhammad).

There are some key tests that should help us to eliminate false prophets, one being that God has chosen his literary prophets (those who pen the books of scripture) from amongst his OWN CHOSEN PEOPLE. In other words, God chose Israelites as his prophets, not people outside of the tribes of Israel. This automatically eliminates the likes of Muhammad and Baha'u'llah as the true literary prophets of God.

What you are doing is interpreting the scripture at will and deciding what ‘you think’ it means, and then you are speaking for God as to who can be a prophet. You cannot speak for God but Jesus can.

The test was given by Jesus. Baha’u’llah passes the test with flying colors:

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions:
FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary​

Besides that, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah were not the same kind of prophets as found in the Old Testament. They were universal Manifestations of God. This excerpt explains the difference:

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library​

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you are mistaken. Just because the Holy Spirit does all those things doesn't mean that He does them for everyone to that extent but only that it is available. My experience with The Holy Spirit is that He tells you what you need to know.

The Holy Spirit gave me a personal prophecy that was fulfilled.

I believe I am evidence to the contrary that He does exist in me.

I believe that is illogical. There are a lot of reasons why people disagree that have nothing to do with God. I believe you are quite correct that God does not contradict Himself.

I believe that is fallacious logic.

The Holy Spirit is not a Person. It is the Bounty of God.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit tells anyone anything. The Holy Spirit is sent by God to Manifestations of God and then they release it to all of humanity.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal prophecy.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of human bodies.

If the Holy Spirit was living inside of Christians and talking to them, it is not telling them the same things so it is contradicting itself.

That is not fallacious logic. It is sound logic.