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How many Satanists do you think there are?

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Seriously? You would think Satanic people would be adaptive to the changing times and for the opportunity to talk about their ideas openly without revealing their identities.

Pretty presumptuous really... Traditional Satanists and Demonolaters don't care about LaVey, the people he stole from, or the people that stole from him or their views. While being very well read on LaVey since I am neither an atheist nor do I find his guiding principles especially useful or relevant or even required to be a Satanist. At this point in my life I realize Satanism has nothing to do with LaVey and maybe never did at its core. If society is more comfortable with a parody version of my religion than the real thing it doesn't matter to me. They're off my back and I can continue my dialogue with the demons and gods without persecution. There is as much advancement as love of old things in the traditional realm. Older people simply have no reason to trust that anything posted is really anonymous. They still think people will come to their house and set it on fire, etc. Personally, I am in one of these old towns and it isn't particularly advantageous to advertise either -- I mostly keep it quiet for my kids sake not my own, but I have no illusions about there probably being some shotgun wielding redneck Christian fundie around here stupid enough to get froggy and do something.

Traditionalists do not believe in or follow LaVey much so what philosophies they embrace are far more eclectic; they only only have to believe in Satan. Some covens have some rules against public communication period. It's only very recently that some of these people have come out of darkness. In addition, sometimes only the High Priest/ess is allowed to speak in such a fashion. This isn't done because it removes your freedom, but because it keeps the rest of the group safe. They don't care if you join or not, but be aware that if it happened you may be expected to shut up. :)

It's called evolution. Adaptive people survive, non-adaptive people do not.

Changing for the sake of change is stupid. How relevant the change is can only be weighted by the annuls of history. For all of the benefits on-line communication methods have it is certainly not without its faults. Invasions of privacy, discrimination, data mining, rights violations, and band-wagoning are some of the vices. There is also the growing concern that governments are seeking to invade this goldmine of information you provide and will use it to undermine your privacy. Some old folks aren't so sure of this, and since they've lived so long they just don't bother with it; they rather not chance it. They prefer to meet people in person (because it stays between them), and send postal mail because it is 'sealed'. It's middle-aged and young people that mostly embrace these things. Let's be realistic and far less judgmental -- just because someone isn't do doing it our way doesn't mean they're wrong. :)

Adaptive things sometimes wither and die -- when they implement the wrong adaptation to the threat. I was watching a show on rattlesnakes the other day and they have a new problem due to people hunting them -- they are ceasing to rattle. So now there are generations of these rattle-less rattlesnakes about and the old snakes are dying off. Originally, this 'rattle' was a mechanism to ward off predators to the animal and allow them to survive, but now it is a liability (humans are the only predator) -- any snake that rattles will die. If the species which preyed on the snakes were more prevalent (like they were in the past) then these rattle-less snakes would be at a disadvantage again due to the fact that many animals instinctively run from the rattle noise. This can really work either way as you can see. It merely depends on if something else decides to make food of the 'new' snake. It is nearly impossible to predict whether that adaptation is useful or not except with the function of avoiding humans. Human adaptations are no better or worse -- and generally any advantages are merely local or trivial.
 
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jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Pretty presumptuous really... Traditional Satanists and Demonolaters don't care about LaVey, the people he stole from, or the people that stole from him or their views. While being very well read on LaVey since I am neither an atheist nor do I find his guiding principles especially useful or relevant or even required to be a Satanist. At this point in my life I realize Satanism has nothing to do with LaVey and maybe never did at its core. If society is more comfortable with a parody version of my religion than the real thing it doesn't matter to me. They're off my back and I can continue my dialogue with the demons and gods without persecution. There is as much advancement as love of old things in the traditional realm. Older people simply have no reason to trust that anything posted is really anonymous. They still think people will come to their house and set it on fire, etc. Personally, I am in one of these old towns and it isn't particularly advantageous to advertise either -- I mostly keep it quiet for my kids sake not my own, but I have no illusions about there probably being some shotgun wielding redneck Christian fundie around here stupid enough to get froggy and do something.

Traditionalists do not believe in or follow LaVey much so what philosophies they embrace are far more eclectic; they only only have to believe in Satan. Some covens have some rules against public communication period. It's only very recently that some of these people have come out of darkness. In addition, sometimes only the High Priest/ess is allowed to speak in such a fashion. This isn't done because it removes your freedom, but because it keeps the rest of the group safe. They don't care if you join or not, but be aware that if it happened you may be expected to shut up. :)



Changing for the sake of change is stupid. How relevant the change is can only be weighted by the annuls of history. For all of the benefits on-line communication methods have it is certainly not without its faults. Invasions of privacy, discrimination, data mining, rights violations, and band-wagoning are some of the vices. There is also the growing concern that governments are seeking to invade this goldmine of information you provide and will use it to undermine your privacy. Some old folks aren't so sure of this, and since they've lived so long they just don't bother with it; they rather not chance it. They prefer to meet people in person (because it stays between them), and send postal mail because it is 'sealed'. It's middle-aged and young people that mostly embrace these things. Let's be realistic and far less judgmental -- just because someone isn't do doing it our way doesn't mean they're wrong. :)

Adaptive things sometimes wither and die -- when they implement the wrong adaptation to the threat. I was watching a show on rattlesnakes the other day and they have a new problem due to people hunting them -- they are ceasing to rattle. So now there are generations of these rattle-less rattlesnakes about and the old snakes are dying off. Originally, this 'rattle' was a mechanism to ward off predators to the animal and allow them to survive, but now it is a liability (humans are the only predator) -- any snake that rattles will die. If the species which preyed on the snakes were more prevalent (like they were in the past) then these rattle-less snakes would be at a disadvantage again due to the fact that many animals instinctively run from the rattle noise. This can really work either way as you can see. It merely depends on if something else decides to make food of the 'new' snake. It is nearly impossible to predict whether that adaptation is useful or not except with the function of avoiding humans. Human adaptations are no better or worse -- and generally any advantages are merely local or trivial.

I never said it had anything to do with LaVey... lol. Also how can they say that their ideas were stolen when they have no proof of this? By your definition they pass down the "traditions" orally. They have no written records or proof then... though mentions in letters might be kinda proof in an informal way.

Passing ideas orally is really bad, more so when it's done in the way it is today. It changes too easily. In societies where a person is taught to keep these traditions, it's kinda different somewhat as that is their whole life... memorizing all those ideas. but even that is open to corruption intentional or not.

Also about all those problems? That's easy. Don't use social networking sites. That is where most of the issues are. Don't ever disclose any personal information online and when getting email use an alias. Everyone does it. The problem with sites like facebook is when people say **** like "I'm at burgerking every friday" or "new cell phone [number] text me!" or fill up their information with a bunch of crap about where they live and **** and upload 50 pictures of their kids.

If they just got an email with an alias (including stuff like a zip code that is on the other side of the country) and just went to a site like this they will leave no more of a digital footprint than they would not being online, other than perhaps their internal IP from their computer, of which most sites never look at unless they need to really burn into your thick skull that you are banned for good.

Although I do agree LaVeyan Satanism works just fine without Satan, it's hilarious that they think that anyone who believes in a literal Satan is not a "Satanist" when even Gilmore admits that they only embrace the word and figure of Satan due to the cultural context, and that the figure in question could be something different in a different cultural context, either in past eras or modern eras.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I never said it had anything to do with LaVey... lol. Also how can they say that their ideas were stolen when they have no proof of this? By your definition they pass down the "traditions" orally. They have no written records or proof then... though mentions in letters might be kinda proof in an informal way.

There is proof, and oral tradition. A lot of it is being recently printed by the Demonolatry camp -- they're basically using family grimories from at least the 1500's. There is a written history just not a published history. :) I doubt these will be published in full however as some of the practices that were used back in the day are just downright illegal now. Expect more bit by bit publishing of the important things as it can be edited into a usable form.

Passing ideas orally is really bad, more so when it's done in the way it is today. It changes too easily. In societies where a person is taught to keep these traditions, it's kinda different somewhat as that is their whole life... memorizing all those ideas. but even that is open to corruption intentional or not.
Things change even when people write them down. They do what they like, or change things for simplicity. Evolution at work.

Also about all those problems? That's easy. Don't use social networking sites. That is where most of the issues are. Don't ever disclose any personal information online and when getting email use an alias. Everyone does it. The problem with sites like facebook is when people say **** like "I'm at burgerking every friday" or "new cell phone [number] text me!" or fill up their information with a bunch of crap about where they live and **** and upload 50 pictures of their kids.
Doesn't matter now... they have computer centers now that digest the whole Internet. They know what you are doing and when if you post, text, mobile, or whatever. Only thing that is still safe is closed networks and pens and paper.

If they just got an email with an alias (including stuff like a zip code that is on the other side of the country) and just went to a site like this they will leave no more of a digital footprint than they would not being online, other than perhaps their internal IP from their computer, of which most sites never look at unless they need to really burn into your thick skull that you are banned for good.
Or you can open a PO Box with some bull name and get mail of any type sent with no worries. That's how they are looking at it. :)

Although I do agree LaVeyan Satanism works just fine without Satan, it's hilarious that they think that anyone who believes in a literal Satan is not a "Satanist" when even Gilmore admits that they only embrace the word and figure of Satan due to the cultural context, and that the figure in question could be something different in a different cultural context, either in past eras or modern eras.
Satanism without Satan is like soy burgers -- a cheap pale imitation that is rather floppy and makes you pass gas; not to mention tastes like ****.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
There is proof, and oral tradition. A lot of it is being recently printed by the Demonolatry camp -- they're basically using family grimories from at least the 1500's. There is a written history just not a published history. :) I doubt these will be published in full however as some of the practices that were used back in the day are just downright illegal now. Expect more bit by bit publishing of the important things as it can be edited into a usable form.

I call bull. What kind of "illegal" are we talking about? And how do YOU personallyknow of this? As you said your not allowed to talk about it. You are now. I bet someone lied/trolled you.

Also just because some ritual or another has some weird stuff doesn't mean they can't publish their philosophy or metaphysics. Also the First Amendment would protect the publishing of the Grimoires if they were published as historical documentation as opposed to an instruction manual that encourages people to commit acts.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I call bull. What kind of "illegal" are we talking about? And how do YOU personallyknow of this? As you said your not allowed to talk about it. You are now. I bet someone lied/trolled you.

Also just because some ritual or another has some weird stuff doesn't mean they can't publish their philosophy or metaphysics. Also the First Amendment would protect the publishing of the Grimoires if they were published as historical documentation as opposed to an instruction manual that encourages people to commit acts.

I'm not part of these groups and I don't know how much sect specific stuff is in their original books, but I can be certain some of their information isn't privy to the public because I have some supplementary information and my own discoveries. Some of it definitely taken out of context would be inappropriate just because customs change. Most people with some sort of conscience do use this to filter what they publish because they know people can get ****** up if they fool around. You can publish everything you have without any reserve if what you publish is complete trash. This ain't the kids stuff and you can get hurt; permanent damage -- For real. There are several rites of which I will never even personally comment about not because of the illegality but the sheer danger to someone not prepared. I have no way of knowing you won't be hurt, so I am responsible and simply don't mention these practices. Why should others give you the keys to the kingdom? Information you cannot use is useless, but giving information that can just harm the neophyte outright is typically just irresponsible. You can never learn the true secrets of the occult via books -- the most important secrets are never published... Sorry, dems the breaks kid... :)

Honestly, I see no point to argue about it -- you can spend less than 30 USD and try it yourself and see if it works. You can determine the validity of what's said via your own actions. History lesson? Go do something! It's not like any other modern occult philosophies have any non-contrived historical precedent anyway. I'm not an archaeologist I'm a student of magic -- I read and I do, I refine and I do again, and what anyone thinks really doesn't mean squat to me. I am not bound to any philosophy but evolution, and I toss every idea conceived to the curb and reanimate it at will.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
I'm not part of these groups and I don't know how much sect specific stuff is in their original books, but I can be certain some of their information isn't privy to the public because I have some supplementary information and my own discoveries. Some of it definitely taken out of context would be inappropriate just because customs change. Most people with some sort of conscience do use this to filter what they publish because they know people can get ****** up if they fool around. You can publish everything you have without any reserve if what you publish is complete trash. This ain't the kids stuff and you can get hurt; permanent damage -- For real. There are several rites of which I will never even personally comment about not because of the illegality but the sheer danger to someone not prepared. I have no way of knowing you won't be hurt, so I am responsible and simply don't mention these practices. Why should others give you the keys to the kingdom? Information you cannot use is useless, but giving information that can just harm the neophyte outright is typically just irresponsible. You can never learn the true secrets of the occult via books -- the most important secrets are never published... Sorry, dems the breaks kid... :)

Honestly, I see no point to argue about it -- you can spend less than 30 USD and try it yourself and see if it works. You can determine the validity of what's said via your own actions. History lesson? Go do something! It's not like any other modern occult philosophies have any non-contrived historical precedent anyway. I'm not an archaeologist I'm a student of magic -- I read and I do, I refine and I do again, and what anyone thinks really doesn't mean squat to me. I am not bound to any philosophy but evolution, and I toss every idea conceived to the curb and reanimate it at will.

What? I was just saying I don't buy this "family Grimoire" thing, it sounds too multi-generational to me. I am totally lost to as how we got to "uber rites that break undready people".

Hell this whole topic is a failure :areyoucra I just wanted some people to throw out some numbers in what was supposed to be a fun topic, and twice (once my fault) it has been derailed lol.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hell this whole topic is a failure :areyoucra I just wanted some people to throw out some numbers in what was supposed to be a fun topic, and twice (once my fault) it has been derailed lol.

:D No real idea... Like I said there are several Satanist types of people whom are basically don't call themselves as such. There are even such things like 'Satanic' wicca and witchcraft which basically replace the horned god with a literal Satan figure, etc. I think they count as well honestly. They're not very left-hand path more middle of the road, but anyway.... still I think they count. Basically..

Theistic Satanists are:

1) Traditional Satanists (JoV sans nazi fascism bull.)

2) Demonolaters (Seem more common than #1 technically. By rights I am in this camp)

3) Satanic Witchcraft/Wicca (likely also featuring the Triple Goddess or Hecate)

4) Dark Pagan pan/poly/theists featuring Satan in the pantheon.

5) Reverse Christian Wicca Duo-theists (do these exist? haha! I am not sure these exist even without the Wicca, but it is possible.)

Arguable:

1) Setians ( I respect them, but I view Set and Satan as different beings. I do not feel they are one in the same. Most theists would have this view rather than them.)

2) Luciferians ( Traditional Satanists view Lucifer=Satan. Demonolaters view Lucifer as a demonic figure that is elementally related to air, divine, sentient, and part of Satan (the whole). Lucifer in this case defines a part of microcosm in a spiritual sense.. Sort of given autonomy, but properly part of Satan.)

3) Symbolic Satanists. (To nearly anyone with a theistic slant.. they don't count. Most have a theistic slant for certain -- there are nearly ten different types of theistic Satanism.)

So the real dilemma is who do you count? :p
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
:D No real idea... Like I said there are several Satanist types of people whom are basically don't call themselves as such. There are even such things like 'Satanic' wicca and witchcraft which basically replace the horned god with a literal Satan figure, etc. I think they count as well honestly. They're not very left-hand path more middle of the road, but anyway.... still I think they count. Basically..

Theistic Satanists are:

1) Traditional Satanists (JoV sans nazi fascism bull.)

2) Demonolaters (Seem more common than #1 technically. By rights I am in this camp)

3) Satanic Witchcraft/Wicca (likely also featuring the Triple Goddess or Hecate)

4) Dark Pagan pan/poly/theists featuring Satan in the pantheon.

5) Reverse Christian Wicca Duo-theists (do these exist? haha! I am not sure these exist even without the Wicca, but it is possible.)

Arguable:

1) Setians ( I respect them, but I view Set and Satan as different beings. I do not feel they are one in the same. Most theists would have this view rather than them.)

2) Luciferians ( Traditional Satanists view Lucifer=Satan. Demonolaters view Lucifer as a demonic figure that is elementally related to air, divine, sentient, and part of Satan (the whole). Lucifer in this case defines a part of microcosm in a spiritual sense.. Sort of given autonomy, but properly part of Satan.)

3) Symbolic Satanists. (To nearly anyone with a theistic slant.. they don't count. Most have a theistic slant for certain -- there are nearly ten different types of theistic Satanism.)

So the real dilemma is who do you count? :p

All of them.

edit: if they claim they are Satanists are not serial killers, they count essentially in your estimate.
 

Luciferi Baphomet

Lucifer, is my Liberator
Facebook is such a judgmental site. I just got my account back and I posted saying that I am not going to be on there anymore.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In the world there's an estimated 30,000-50,000 Spiritual Satanists that associate with Joy of Satan ❤️

I don't buy that number at all, first of all I don't think there are that many people on the entire earth dumb enough to associate with Neo-Nazi's. I still find the spiritual Satanism connection dubious at best, as well.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
Let's hope there aren't that many of the JoS kind.
And the term "spiritual Satanism" certainly isn't used only by JoS, the best-known exception being Venus Satanas.

The biggest group might nowadays be The Satanic Temple, if you wanna count all their members as actual Satanists.
They say in reaction to the result of the US election they received "thousands" of applications for membership, and already had 50,000 members before.

Since the CoS doesn't seem to publish membership numbers we don't know if they have less or more - and also in their case it's dubious whether everyone who ever paid for their membership card still identifies as a Satanist (or ever did so).

And as y'all know, many of us aren't members in any such group.

According to Faxneld/Peterson (2013), there exists the estimation of 30,000-100,000 Satanists worldwide, which they deemed reasonable.
It was an extrapolation based on religion censuses in 2 countries (UK (year 2001) and Australia (year 2006), with 1,600 and 2,247 self-identifying Satanists respectively)
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
I think it's safe to say that the Church of Satan and Temple of Set have the majority of Satanists/Left Hand Pather affiliates on an organizational level than any other Satanic/LHP group. I would also say that the ToS has the majority of those who are serious and legitimate.
 
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Liu

Well-Known Member
I don't know how many members the ToS has, but I'd assume much less than 1000.
Since they seem to accept or exclude people on a personal basis, I agree that they probably have a much higher proportion of serious members than other internationally known groups. But in total numbers, hardly.
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
I don't know how many members the ToS has, but I'd assume much less than 1000.
Since they seem to accept or exclude people on a personal basis, I agree that they probably have a much higher proportion of serious members than other internationally known groups. But in total numbers, hardly.

The ToS is more about the quality of its Initiates rather than the quantity. ;)
 
I don't buy that number at all, first of all I don't think there are that many people on the entire earth dumb enough to associate with Neo-Nazi's. I still find the spiritual Satanism connection dubious at best, as well.
Okay I'm just stating what I've seen from actual statistics and the JoS forums.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's hope there aren't that many of the JoS kind.
And the term "spiritual Satanism" certainly isn't used only by JoS, the best-known exception being Venus Satanas.

The biggest group might nowadays be The Satanic Temple, if you wanna count all their members as actual Satanists.
They say in reaction to the result of the US election they received "thousands" of applications for membership, and already had 50,000 members before.

Since the CoS doesn't seem to publish membership numbers we don't know if they have less or more - and also in their case it's dubious whether everyone who ever paid for their membership card still identifies as a Satanist (or ever did so).

And as y'all know, many of us aren't members in any such group.

According to Faxneld/Peterson (2013), there exists the estimation of 30,000-100,000 Satanists worldwide, which they deemed reasonable.
It was an extrapolation based on religion censuses in 2 countries (UK (year 2001) and Australia (year 2006), with 1,600 and 2,247 self-identifying Satanists respectively)

Necro but I want to point out that back in the 90's the CoS accidentally put out a rough figure as a guide to US Army Chaplins. I think it put them around 20,000 or then... Not sure if that is just 'you bought our membership card'! Or actual active members. Speaking from my years online, I'd say LaVeyans are at least outnumbered online by theists and other groups, and that Satanism in general probably only has in the tens of if not couple hundred thousand. Part of the problem is that every other Satanist wants to start their own group, which often gives the illusion of there really being more than there is. The fact that I can relatively easily get in contact with most of the 'big name' Satanists is pretty telling. And if you trace the activity it seems a lot of people associate with different groups and organizations over time. So finding true figures is hard, but finding a good ballpark is doable IMO once you account for those factors.

I believe the Satanic Temple when they say they got 50k members. If I had to guess at least half are actually practicing Satanists. If you read some of their literature it's pretty clear at least the leadership and the big names in the organization are legit Satanists. I can't speak for the memberbase though, I've yet to really interact with it. The Satanic Temple is the new Church of Satan though, I wouldn't be surprised if there really isn't more Satanists than in the 90's, but rather the distribution of where they are has changed.
 
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