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How is Satan the Adversary? Against Humanity, against YHWH, or against the Father?

Discussion in 'Gnosticism DIR' started by Being, Feb 9, 2015.

  1. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    **Thread Closed Pending Moderation**
     
  2. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    Mod Post: This is a Gnostic DIR, so please reply to this thread only if you are a Gnostic.
    (Thread Re-opened)
     
  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    To say that YHWH is the adversary isn't exactly correct. Same with Jehovah. The Hebrews tried hard to remain on the path of God (the Father). But the path was tainted by the adversary (Demiurge). So we have a gray area of light and dakness. Was YHWH the teachings of the Father? Yes. Was YHWH the deceiver. Yes. The word YHWH is not the Fathers name. He has no name. Once the Jews used the word to describe the true God, they couldn't see the differences, hence one God.

    Jesus said the Jews father (small f) was a "liar and a murderer". The Father (capital F) that Jesus taught was not a murderer nor liar. That would make him imperfect, even according to the Law (of Moses). Samuel speaks of the great slaughter god did of 35,000 for looking into the Ark Is he a murderer? Did the Father create the angel of death that killed the first born? To show his "might"? The OT wass filled with fear of God, but Jesus said God was love. Wanting to save the world. What a mixed message.

    See how Jesus changed one word to describe the Father:

    Deut. 6:
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Matthew 22:
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    The mystery of the Gospel is revealed by the spirit.

    Gospel of Mary:
    10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
    11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision

    The truth comes in the vision the Holy Spirit gives us. Without her knowledge, we see words as the world does.
     
  4. Enlil

    Enlil Allah's servant

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    I believe Satan is the Adversary of both the Father and humanity.

    I don't believe in this notion of a lesser Demiurge. Rather YHWH is the Heavenly Father, Who created the universe in response to an attack on His Kingdom by Satan (who existed in a separate realm to the Father's Kingdom).

    The Father/YHWH sent Jesus as a Messenger to the light spirits trapped in the material world (including those spirits trapped in human form). Some he rescued, some remain trapped, and some will free themselves in time.
     
  5. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    The difference, from my 20 years as orthodox and now "gnostic" in thought is that the orthodox (one god) ideology doesn't allow us to identify false god and true God. This has been the act of the Demiurge from the beginning, that he is god. This is why those like Marcion and Valentinus removed any OT ideology from the Gospel teachings.

    Orthodoxy see's the adversary as on one end of the line and the Father on the other end. Opposer rather than adversary. I see two lines running parallel with the Father being one and the Demiurge being the other (god). As the lines travel, one curves away from the other leading to each eventual goal. One infinite as only the Father is the other darkness.

    Both gods use good and bad by our perspective.

    Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.- Philip

    This is as the "angel of light" comment. The Demiurge is good, but ignorant. The Father is good yet perfect. The flesh is good yet imperfect. The spirit is the knowledge (given to Adam) to see the difference. The Spirit (capital S) was given by Jesus (who was able to receive it first) which made him Christ (anointed by Spirit).

    The Jews couldn't know the difference, which is why they died. Yet Christ went to where they slept (Hades) and those with faith recognized him and were saved (resurrection of the dead). [Secret John and Matthew].

    The sword Jesus brought separated the two gods. One who is father of flesh/physical, one who is spirit.

    You cannot have two masters. Love the one hate the other. Orthodoxy see's and loves both as one. The church merely gave in to the same spirit Jesus denied in his temptations. To be over all the kingdoms of the world shown him by the Demiurge because he owned them.

    John and Paul are the "gnostic" in the Bible, as well as Thomas, Philip, etc. non canon.

    Galatians is Pauls revealing of the false gospel who wanted to guide the flesh rather than the spirit. Something Peter fell to by staying in Rome rather than to move and repose as the others did.

    (50) Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?', say, 'We are its children, we are the elect of the living father.' If they ask you, 'What is the sign of your father in you?', say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"- Thomas

    The Spirit is freed from the "holy of holies". The orthodox have repaired the veil that was rend, and ask you to once again come to it (church/temple).

    (39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."- Thomas

    We seek the knowledge that is (safely) hidden.

    Paul:
    2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
     
  6. Tomas Kindahl

    Tomas Kindahl ... out on my Odyssé — again!

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    Satan is not generally a Gnostic concept. The Mandeans allegedly have a Satan though. The "evil" of Gnosticism is not the Christian kind of sadistic-destructive rebell that hates humankind, the "evil" of Gnosticism is "decay", "corruption", a sort of soulless inherent quality in the Universe, personally I like to equate it with entropy. All other evils originate in that fundamental corruption. The Secret Book of John explains this in the section where Sophia's fall and Yaldabaoth the Demiurge is explained. The Demiurge and his minions are soulless, that is they aren't actively seeking victims to torture, they are just bad clumsy narcissistic guys with very little skill.
     
  7. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    Satan (or Shaitan) is the force that traps humanity from gnosis, the force that keeps mankind trapped in delusion but it's not an adversary of the absolute (God)
     
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  8. Goodman John

    Goodman John Member

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    My take on it follows Manichaean/Gnostic paths in that I think God and Satan are polar opposites- Good and Evil. Some may argue that Satan is a creation of God, and this does have merit in Gnostic terms. I think, though that Satan is on par with God and they have always existed in opposition. Cathar authors labeled these as the Two Principles, but applying the names God and Satan are an easy enough reference, though not exactly in mainstream Christian terms.

    At some point Satan and God warred against each other (who hit who first, who knows) but in the end- at least for now- Satan was defeated and banished from the spiritual realm into the physical realm he had created. Long story short, when enough of God's souls are returned to him, the physical realm will cease to exist and Satan (or the Demiurge, however one wants to identify it) will be returned to the spiritual realm to await God's pleasure. In the meantime, Satan's program is to keep our souls here by keeping us in the dark about God and our spiritual nature (that's a different story)- the longer he keeps the universe turning the longer he stays in power.

    (I'm still digesting the Questions of John, in which much more detail is provided, so in my search for knowledge my position may have to change.)
     
    #28 Goodman John, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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