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How is Satan the Adversary? Against Humanity, against YHWH, or against the Father?

Being

Being
How is Satan the Adversary? Against Humanity, against YHWH, or against the Father?

I would like to know other people's views about this. So I'm asking various questions as suggestions to get a discussion started. I am not a Gnostic, and I'm not trying to promote any particular view. I simply want to learn what other people's views are, preferably views different from orthodox Christianity.

The New Testament describes Satan as "the adversary." But whose adversary? I am examining this from the POV that YHWH is the Demiurge and is evil, a usurper, who has tried to prevent Humanity from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father. Christ in Jesus opposed and defeated YHWH the evil Demiurge, and thus restored fellowship between Humanity and the Father. So, what role does Satan play in all this?

Is Satan trying to thwart Humanity and prevent humans from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father?

Since YHWH is the evil Demiurge, and if Satan is trying to prevent humans from fellowshipping with the Father, then it seems that Satan would be a servant of YHWH, if not YHWH himself.

With the view that YHWH is the evil "god of this world" whom Jesus defeated and "cast out" (or deposed) on the cross, if Satan opposed Jesus, then Satan would be working with YHWH. In the wilderness, was Satan tempting Jesus to abandon YHWH's plan or the Heavenly Father's plan?

Was Jesus clear from the start that his mission was to defeat YHWH and thwart YHWH's kingdom? If so, what does that reveal about Jesus' encounters with Satan?

Is it possible that YHWH forced Satan into working as a servant, a pawn in YHWH's scheme? Therefore, Satan, would have been working in humans against the Father.

Who is/was Satan? An aspect of Humanity that was enslaved and corrupted by the evil Demiurge YHWH? Or is/was Satan a higher being originally?

Is the Christian belief that Lucifer became Satan an erroneous association? If so, then who is Lucifer (if not the archangel), or what became of Lucifer?

Is Satan the Devil? Or is this another erroneous Christian conflation? Who/what is the Devil?

Which biblical and/or Gnostic scriptures clarify all this?

(Intentionally cryptic or obscure comments will be ignored.)

Thanks.
 
Last edited:

Faybull

Well-Known Member
whoa. i am thinking about buying a scooter to get to work and back.

surely jesus knew that a rock couldn't become a piece of bread for a man to eat if he were hungry
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
How is Satan the Adversary? Against Humanity, against YHWH, or against the Father?

I would like to know other people's views about this. So I'm asking various questions as suggestions to get a discussion started. I am not a Gnostic, and I'm not trying to promote any particular view. I simply want to learn what other people's views are, preferably views different from orthodox Christianity.

The New Testament describes Satan as "the adversary." But whose adversary? I am examining this from the POV that YHWH is the Demiurge and is evil, a usurper, who has tried to prevent Humanity from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father. Christ in Jesus opposed and defeated YHWH the evil Demiurge, and thus restored fellowship between Humanity and the Father. So, what role does Satan play in all this?

Is Satan trying to thwart Humanity and prevent humans from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father?

Since YHWH is the evil Demiurge, and if Satan is trying to prevent humans from fellowshipping with the Father, then it seems that Satan would be a servant of YHWH, if not YHWH himself.

With the view that YHWH is the evil "god of this world" whom Jesus defeated and "cast out" (or deposed) on the cross, if Satan opposed Jesus, then Satan would be working with YHWH. In the wilderness, was Satan tempting Jesus to abandon YHWH's plan or the Heavenly Father's plan?

Was Jesus clear from the start that his mission was to defeat YHWH and thwart YHWH's kingdom? If so, what does that reveal about Jesus' encounters with Satan?

Is it possible that YHWH forced Satan into working as a servant, a pawn in YHWH's scheme? Therefore, Satan, would have been working in humans against the Father.

Who is/was Satan? An aspect of Humanity that was enslaved and corrupted by the evil Demiurge YHWH? Or is/was Satan a higher being originally?

Is the Christian belief that Lucifer became Satan an erroneous association? If so, then who is Lucifer (if not the archangel), or what became of Lucifer?

Is Satan the Devil? Or is this another erroneous Christian conflation? Who/what is the Devil?

Which biblical and/or Gnostic scriptures clarify all this?

(Intentionally cryptic or obscure comments will be ignored.)

Thanks.
"The Adversary" is something of a poor-ish translation. It's correct, but due to what we perceive as an "Adversary" today, it's not as-correct as it used to be. A better translation is "The Accuser", and "Accusation" here is in an almost legal sense.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
There is a popular meme circulating the interwebz....but I happen to think it makes a good bit of sense...''if Satan punishes evil people, wouldn't that make him a good guy?'' ^_^

The notion of an outward force known as 'Satan' ...ruling the earth...just seems far fetched to me. I believe that we all have within us the capacity to do good or bad deeds. Those traits aren't heavenly or hellish...rather, they fall under the umbrella of being human. Conjuring up devils and demons in my opinion, is a way to escape responsibility if one commits heinous actions.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
There is a popular meme circulating the interwebz....but I happen to think it makes a good bit of sense...''if Satan punishes evil people, wouldn't that make him a good guy?'' ^_^

The notion of an outward force known as 'Satan' ...ruling the earth...just seems far fetched to me. I believe that we all have within us the capacity to do good or bad deeds. Those traits aren't heavenly or hellish...rather, they fall under the umbrella of being human. Conjuring up devils and demons in my opinion, is a way to escape responsibility if one commits heinous actions.

You mean like saying "the Devil made me do it?"
Was said to a judge at a trail I was part of once.
Judge replied, "of course but I'm putting YOU in jail!":mad:

(love the new avatar)
 

Saint Frankenstein

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Premium Member
In Gnosticism, the Demiurge is usually identified as Satan, who would the enemy of the Heavenly Father and all created beings.

There's Gnostic Satanism, too, which worships Satan as a Liberator. (Gnostic Christianity and Gnostic Satanism are more different than they are the same. For example, Gnostic Satanism has a visceral hatred of the cosmos and is heavily nihilistic, actively performing magick to see it destroyed, and not all Gnostic Christian groups do.)
 

ELoWolfe

Member
I'd say no contemporary Gnostic would, since contemporary Gnosticism seems to be rather pro-cosmos. Classical Gnosticism would have probably been rather indifferent. They didn't seem to have the humanitarianism we find today. They had the truth and if others didn't grasp it, it was of no concern to them. That didn't mean they actively encouraged destruction, though. They were just "above it." "In the world, but not of it."
 
I'd say no contemporary Gnostic would, since contemporary Gnosticism seems to be rather pro-cosmos.
Well it depends on your definition of gnosticism...ask those people who are involved into current 218/anti-cosmic gnosis (TOTBL et al.). They are a minority, perhaps, but they are quite influential in some circles.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
How is Satan the Adversary? Against Humanity, against YHWH, or against the Father?

I would like to know other people's views about this. So I'm asking various questions as suggestions to get a discussion started. I am not a Gnostic, and I'm not trying to promote any particular view. I simply want to learn what other people's views are, preferably views different from orthodox Christianity.

The New Testament describes Satan as "the adversary." But whose adversary? I am examining this from the POV that YHWH is the Demiurge and is evil, a usurper, who has tried to prevent Humanity from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father. Christ in Jesus opposed and defeated YHWH the evil Demiurge, and thus restored fellowship between Humanity and the Father. So, what role does Satan play in all this?

Is Satan trying to thwart Humanity and prevent humans from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father?

Since YHWH is the evil Demiurge, and if Satan is trying to prevent humans from fellowshipping with the Father, then it seems that Satan would be a servant of YHWH, if not YHWH himself.

With the view that YHWH is the evil "god of this world" whom Jesus defeated and "cast out" (or deposed) on the cross, if Satan opposed Jesus, then Satan would be working with YHWH. In the wilderness, was Satan tempting Jesus to abandon YHWH's plan or the Heavenly Father's plan?

Was Jesus clear from the start that his mission was to defeat YHWH and thwart YHWH's kingdom? If so, what does that reveal about Jesus' encounters with Satan?

Is it possible that YHWH forced Satan into working as a servant, a pawn in YHWH's scheme? Therefore, Satan, would have been working in humans against the Father.

Who is/was Satan? An aspect of Humanity that was enslaved and corrupted by the evil Demiurge YHWH? Or is/was Satan a higher being originally?

Is the Christian belief that Lucifer became Satan an erroneous association? If so, then who is Lucifer (if not the archangel), or what became of Lucifer?

Is Satan the Devil? Or is this another erroneous Christian conflation? Who/what is the Devil?

Which biblical and/or Gnostic scriptures clarify all this?

(Intentionally cryptic or obscure comments will be ignored.)

Thanks.
There is an evolution of thought in the Bible. First we see that the word "satan" is a generic term that simply means "adversary". For example we see in the book of Numbers where the Angel of the LORD becomes a satan to Balaam. But in other passages Satan takes on a personality as a distinct being. Even in the OT that being gets conflated with YHVH (compare 1Ch 21:1 with 2Sa 24:1). In Job Satan is part of YHVH's heavenly court as a kind of prosecutor of humanity.

When we get to the NT, seen from a gnostic viewpoint, YHVH gets conflated with Satan because he is a lesser form of divinity than the Father. One must choose between the two. The Devil is just another term for Satan coming from the Greek diabolos meaning slanderer. He is the accuser of the brethren thus resuming his prosecutorial role. As for the name Lucifer that is just a mangled Latinized corruption of the Hebrew. If anything Jesus is a lucifer which means light bearer.
 

Being

Being
nazz,

Thanks for your reply. In your understanding of the Gnostic POV, does Gnosticism view the evolution of the character(s) in the Bible as an actual evolution of real characters in reality? Or as an evolution of human perception (thus reflected in the writings as you've described), of who and what the character(s) are and have always been?

That is, did the real Satan character evolve in the way you described. Or has the real Satan character always been this, but human understanding has changed and has been so reflected in the writings. And do you personally agree with the conflation of Satan with YHVH? And Jesus being a Lucifer, yes I've come across that also.

Do you view all these characters as literally real beings, or more as archetypal, mythological, or something other than literal real beings? Is the word "supernatural" apt here, or is there a better word to convey the sense of real, literal, beyond nature? Or are they all partially natural beings and partially spiritual beings?

There is an evolution of thought in the Bible. First we see that the word "satan" is a generic term that simply means "adversary". For example we see in the book of Numbers where the Angel of the LORD becomes a satan to Balaam. But in other passages Satan takes on a personality as a distinct being. Even in the OT that being gets conflated with YHVH (compare 1Ch 21:1 with 2Sa 24:1). In Job Satan is part of YHVH's heavenly court as a kind of prosecutor of humanity.

When we get to the NT, seen from a gnostic viewpoint, YHVH gets conflated with Satan because he is a lesser form of divinity than the Father. One must choose between the two. The Devil is just another term for Satan coming from the Greek diabolos meaning slanderer. He is the accuser of the brethren thus resuming his prosecutorial role. As for the name Lucifer that is just a mangled Latinized corruption of the Hebrew. If anything Jesus is a lucifer which means light bearer.
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
The worst part is we're all working off 2,000 year old legends or older.

Oldie but Goody
J5DjN5B.png


What if the Lord and Satan healed old rhubarbs and Satan was God now?

I find it hysterical.

My interpretation is a bit dodgy with Satan or Samael - not Lucifer, I'm no scape goat or heretic. As far as Christ, Satan seemed to try and help him and honestly offer him power or wealth; even telling him he would be crucified.

But that's crucifying talk, the principal is I'm not a scape goat.

I believe Samael was translated into Satan, while Lucifer is an entirely different being. I've seen others think it, but there's nothing you can do to establish the idea at this point.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
nazz,

Thanks for your reply. In your understanding of the Gnostic POV, does Gnosticism view the evolution of the character(s) in the Bible as an actual evolution of real characters in reality? Or as an evolution of human perception (thus reflected in the writings as you've described), of who and what the character(s) are and have always been?

That is, did the real Satan character evolve in the way you described. Or has the real Satan character always been this, but human understanding has changed and has been so reflected in the writings. And do you personally agree with the conflation of Satan with YHVH? And Jesus being a Lucifer, yes I've come across that also.

Do you view all these characters as literally real beings, or more as archetypal, mythological, or something other than literal real beings? Is the word "supernatural" apt here, or is there a better word to convey the sense of real, literal, beyond nature? Or are they all partially natural beings and partially spiritual beings?
As always I can only answer for myself and share my own personal perspective. These beings are real in the sense of being internal subjective realities. People believe they exist and that they interact with them and this belief affects them. Perhaps they even have internal experiences of them. Whether or not these beings possess external objective existence is not known but nor is it important as the subjective interaction remains the same. So they are both real in the sense I mentioned and also undergo an evolution based on perception and conception.

I don't see the divine figure represented in most of the OT in a positive light. I don't see him as the same God revealed by and through Christ. So in the sense that a person might be tempted to worship the former rather than the latter, the OT deity could be seen as a satan, an adversary. Certainly he was an adversary to Jesus himself as it was the religion system of worship that led in part to his crucifixion.

I'm not a fan of the word "supernatural" and avoid using it.
 

frangipani

Member
Premium Member
I'd say no contemporary Gnostic would, since contemporary Gnosticism seems to be rather pro-cosmos. Classical Gnosticism would have probably been rather indifferent. They didn't seem to have the humanitarianism we find today. They had the truth and if others didn't grasp it, it was of no concern to them. That didn't mean they actively encouraged destruction, though. They were just "above it." "In the world, but not of it."
I agree and would point out each of us hope someday everyone sees the Truth because it is God's will none should be lost, but this is the truth of it, if a person doesn't grasp it we will try to help them if they are genuinely seeking, if they are not interested, well that is their choice. We don't judge them, we accept them for who they are. After all that is what free will is all about, God does not force His will upon us, He gave us free will so that we may choose.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
How is Satan the Adversary? Against Humanity, against YHWH, or against the Father?

I would like to know other people's views about this. So I'm asking various questions as suggestions to get a discussion started. I am not a Gnostic, and I'm not trying to promote any particular view. I simply want to learn what other people's views are, preferably views different from orthodox Christianity.

The New Testament describes Satan as "the adversary." But whose adversary? I am examining this from the POV that YHWH is the Demiurge and is evil, a usurper, who has tried to prevent Humanity from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father. Christ in Jesus opposed and defeated YHWH the evil Demiurge, and thus restored fellowship between Humanity and the Father. So, what role does Satan play in all this?

Is Satan trying to thwart Humanity and prevent humans from knowing and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father?

Since YHWH is the evil Demiurge, and if Satan is trying to prevent humans from fellowshipping with the Father, then it seems that Satan would be a servant of YHWH, if not YHWH himself.

With the view that YHWH is the evil "god of this world" whom Jesus defeated and "cast out" (or deposed) on the cross, if Satan opposed Jesus, then Satan would be working with YHWH. In the wilderness, was Satan tempting Jesus to abandon YHWH's plan or the Heavenly Father's plan?

Was Jesus clear from the start that his mission was to defeat YHWH and thwart YHWH's kingdom? If so, what does that reveal about Jesus' encounters with Satan?

Is it possible that YHWH forced Satan into working as a servant, a pawn in YHWH's scheme? Therefore, Satan, would have been working in humans against the Father.

Who is/was Satan? An aspect of Humanity that was enslaved and corrupted by the evil Demiurge YHWH? Or is/was Satan a higher being originally?

Is the Christian belief that Lucifer became Satan an erroneous association? If so, then who is Lucifer (if not the archangel), or what became of Lucifer?

Is Satan the Devil? Or is this another erroneous Christian conflation? Who/what is the Devil?

Which biblical and/or Gnostic scriptures clarify all this?

(Intentionally cryptic or obscure comments will be ignored.)

Thanks.

Satan is the Adversary of the Heavenly Father. They come in many forms and have been known by many names throughout history, including the Devil. They sprang from the Heavenly Father - Who is the Energy at the Root of all universes - pulling away large portions of energy and creating undifferentiated matter, trapping the energy inside. The Heavenly Father responded by infusing tiny sparks of Herself into the undifferentiated matter, breaking it up into countless energetic-material forms thereby creating the differentiated universe. Each tiny spark is a soul working to liberate the energy trapped inside the energetic-material universe. And Satan responds by working to trap souls and ever more energy in the energetic-material world. So ensues a Battle between the Heavenly Father and Their Servants and Satan and their servants that results in the further differentiation of the energetic-material universe and ultimately the evolution of ever more complex living things. Seen in this light, Satan is the original Demiurge, but the Heavenly Father is also a Creator, but of the differentiated universe as a means to liberate the energy trapped within undifferentiated matter. The Heavenly Father as Creator in this latter sense is also known as Yahweh. So Satan is a very real and powerful being and if we (strive to) serve the Heavenly Father, we should take Satan as our adversary too.
 

Saint Frankenstein

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Premium Member
Guys, this is the Gnostic DIR. There's pretty much almost no Gnostics that post on this site now.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Guys, this is the Gnostic DIR. There's pretty much almost no Gnostics that post on this site now.
You may not be directing this at me, but in case you are, just to say that Gnostics come in many shapes, sizes and colours, and whilst I call myself a Muslim - for reasons which we can explore if you would like - my beliefs for one fall very much within the Gnostic fold, and indeed a number of Muslim groups/sects down the ages (typically within the Shi'a branch of Islaam) would also fall within the Gnostic fold.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Although it's nice to see activity in this dead DIR, this is still a DIR and you're not supposed to be debating in here. You're not supposed to be doing anything besides asking respectful questions if you don't identify as a Gnostic. You could start a new thread about Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, etc. in the debate area. That would be interesting.

Where have all my fellow Gnostics gone? So much to talk about (and so much work to do!).
Btw, I like your pic Saint Frankenstein (the partial face with the blue eye, that is) :)
 

Saint Frankenstein

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Premium Member
Where have all my fellow Gnostics gone? So much to talk about (and so much work to do!).
Btw, I like your pic Saint Frankenstein (the partial face with the blue eye, that is) :)
I'm not sure. A few used to post here regularly, but I don't see them anymore. I'm influenced by Gnosticism and was really into it for a while, myself.

Thanks. That's Riddick's eye. ;)
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Which sects in particular?
The Kaysanites and their branches, the followers of al-Muqanna, the Khurramites, the Alawiyyah; some have suggested that the Qizilbash and indeed a number of Sufi groups have also been influenced by Gnostic currents.
 
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