How do you reconcile the creating God of the bible with the reality of evolution.

[Valjean]

At least science develops from observation and testing. Religion is often just blind acceptance of some literary work, promoting ideas no-one's testing.

 

[The Anointed]

what have scientific laws to do with god magic?

According to the best science nothing is known prior to 10e-42 of a second after the bb.

The laws of thermodynamics did not begin to form until 10e-34 of a second after the bb and were not full resolved until 10e-24 of a second after the bb

I must accept no such thing, just because you dont understand the science but use your misunderstanding to fill in gaps is down to your faith, not to an imaginary energy being who can do god like magic.

"Mindless" gravity causes "mindless" clumping of matter to form dust, suns, planets, moons etc. The laws of thermodynamics that you so blatantly misrepresent predict "mindless" evolution.

Your last paragraph is also pure guesswork that makes you feel better about he gaps in your knowledge.

I asked for evidence, you gave me misunderstanding of science and guesswork. Fair enough.

Christine M wrote……..what have scientific laws to do with god magic?

The Anointed………what god magic, hasn’t already been explained by our scientific community, will eventually be shown to be in accordance to natural laws.

Christine M wrote……..According to the best science nothing is known prior to 10e-42 of a second after the bb.

The Anointed…….. And which Big Bang are you referring to?

Christine M wrote……..The laws of thermodynamics did not begin to form until 10e-34 of a second after the bb and were not full resolved until 10e-24 of a second after the bb.

The Anointed…….. Logic reveals that everything that exists, has always existed in one form or another, Are you suggesting that the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees in the event that is called the BIG BANG, from which this particular period of universal activity was created, spontaneously appeared out of NOTHINGNESS?

Christine M wrote……..I must accept no such thing, just because you dont understand the science but use your misunderstanding to fill in gaps is down to your faith, not to an imaginary energy being who can do god like magic.

The Anointed……… Oh, I understand the science behind the Big Bang ‘THEORY’ alright, but it is obvious that you do not.

Christine M wrote …….."Mindless" gravity causes "mindless" clumping of matter to form dust, suns, planets, moons etc. The laws of thermodynamics that you so blatantly misrepresent predict "mindless" evolution.

The Anointed…….. Hammers and nails are mindless objects also, but in the hands of a master carpenter, wonderful structures are created.

Christine M wrote…….. Your last paragraph is also pure guesswork that makes you feel better about he gaps in your knowledge. I asked for evidence, you gave me misunderstanding of science and guesswork. Fair enough.

The Anointed…….. Because of your apparent limited knowledge of the eternal and boundless cosmos, you seem to believe that this is the only universe that has ever been created, and that it was created from the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the event that is called the Big Bang. That being the case, you cannot now deny that all that exists has evolved from that energy, which you cannot prove has a beginning or an end, and that apparent eternal energy has become and IS, all that exists, and is therefore the collective consciousness of all that it [The eternal ENERGY] has become.

You cannot prove that every lifeform within this universe did not evolve from that eternal energy that is without beginning or end.

That is of course, unless, like Stephen Hawking, you believe that nothing existed before the Big Bang, as there was no time for anything to exist in, therefore that celestial fireball from which this universe was created, spontaneously appeared out of nothing; in other words, according to your belief, NOTHING has become all that exists. Fair enough.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed.

Can you prove that energy can be created or can be destroyed? If not, then you must accept that energy is eternal having neither beginning or end.

Actually, the first law of thermodynamics says that the total energy of a closed system is constant.

... but you're arguing that the universe isn't a closed system. So how exactly do you think the first law of thermodynamics applies?

 

[The Anointed]

Actually, the first law of thermodynamics says that the total energy of a closed system is constant.

... but you're arguing that the universe isn't a closed system. So how exactly do you think the first law of thermodynamics applies?

Do you believe that this universe was created from the Great fireball of energy that exploded out in the event which is called the Big Bang?

If so, from where do you believe that energy originated?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you believe that this universe was created from the Great fireball of energy that exploded out in the event which is called the Big Bang?

If so, from where do you believe that energy originated?

How about you answer my question first?

 

[Valjean]

Do you believe that this universe was created from the Great fireball of energy that exploded out in the event which is called the Big Bang?

Well, "great fireball of energy" is a bit hyperbolic, but, extrapolating backwards from the current pattern of expansion, it certainly appears that it all originated at a single point.
Is there any other rational interpretation?
What's your theory on the affair?

If so, from where do you believe that energy originated?

Unknown.

 

[The Anointed]

Well, "great fireball of energy" is a bit hyperbolic, but, extrapolating backwards from the current pattern of expansion, it certainly appears that it all originated at a single point.
Is there any other rational interpretation?
What's your theory on the affair?

Unknown.

There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

Here is but one of many theories as to the creation of our three-dimensional universe. This one is by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, who proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a “bulk universe” that has four dimensions and that the “Bulk Universe” has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three-dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, like in our universe---only in four-dimension. The four-dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional “Event Horizon,” the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three-dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four-dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four-dimensional black hole, then blows apart, with the leftover material forming a three-dimensional membrane surrounding a three-dimensional event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a fourth dimensional black hole. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

 

[The Anointed]

There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

Here is but one of many theories as to the creation of our three-dimensional universe. This one is by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, who proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a “bulk universe” that has four dimensions and that the “Bulk Universe” has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three-dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, like in our universe---only in four-dimension. The four-dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional “Event Horizon,” the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three-dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four-dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four-dimensional black hole, then blows apart, with the leftover material forming a three-dimensional membrane surrounding a three-dimensional event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a fourth dimensional black hole. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

Here is another of the scientific theories of the origin of this universe........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which event spewed out a liquid like plasma soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space.

But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, which wave particles are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron. As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, until the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space, as evening descended on the first creative day.

 

[The Anointed]

Here is another of the scientific theories of the origin of this universe........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which event spewed out a liquid like plasma soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space.

But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, which wave particles are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron. As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, until the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space, as evening descended on the first creative day.

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc.

And it is suggested that all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

 

[The Anointed]

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc.

And it is suggested that all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by a super Black hole, which has a mass of over three million suns, and around the Super Black Hole at the centre of our Galaxy, orbits many other black holes, which were once at the centre of other lesser galactic bodies that have merged with ours.

The larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are orbiting our Milky Way galaxy that orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and will one day merge with our galaxy. The Super Black Hole at the centre of our being will continue to grow as it devours the other lesser black Holes and dying stars and planets within this galaxy. And yet our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies that are falling in toward the super gravitational anomaly that is called the ‘Great Attractor’.

It is believed that those galaxies are gathered together by their own gravitational attraction, and will one day become so condensed and concentrated around the Great Attractor, that the elements will become extremely excited, and will burn up, and this particular galactic cluster will become a super massive body of unapproachable light, which will eventually roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise as it spirals into the centrally condensed system around which it has been gathered, where that energised body will be torn to pieces molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created and accelerated along the dark worm hole or Einstein Rosen bridge, to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like electromagnetic energy is spewed out of a White Hole in the trillions and trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy that universe is resurrected, to which the light from its old position in space-time, would take billions upon billions of years to reach its new position.

 

[The Anointed]

Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by a super Black hole, which has a mass of over three million suns, and around the Super Black Hole at the centre of our Galaxy, orbits many other black holes, which were once at the centre of other lesser galactic bodies that have merged with ours.

The larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are orbiting our Milky Way galaxy that orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and will one day merge with our galaxy. The Super Black Hole at the centre of our being will continue to grow as it devours the other lesser black Holes and dying stars and planets within this galaxy. And yet our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies that are falling in toward the super gravitational anomaly that is called the ‘Great Attractor’.

It is believed that those galaxies are gathered together by their own gravitational attraction, and will one day become so condensed and concentrated around the Great Attractor, that the elements will become extremely excited, and will burn up, and this particular galactic cluster will become a super massive body of unapproachable light, which will eventually roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise as it spirals into the centrally condensed system around which it has been gathered, where that energised body will be torn to pieces molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created and accelerated along the dark worm hole or Einstein Rosen bridge, to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like electromagnetic energy is spewed out of a White Hole in the trillions and trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy that universe is resurrected, to which the light from its old position in space-time, would take billions upon billions of years to reach its new position.

The Great Attractor: what is this thing?

The smallest unit of galaxies out there is our local group, comprising the Milky Way, the Andromeda galaxy and about 50 others. The Local Group is in turn part of the Virgo Supercluster containing some 40,000 members. Beyond all this is an unseen object called the Great Attractor which is pulling the Milky Way and all else towards it at the terrific speed of 14 million mph. What is this thing, how far away is it, and what will happen when we reach it? No one knows.

Detailed observations of the galaxies around us indicate that there is superposed on the Hubble flow a large-scale streaming motion of about 600 km/s in the general direction of the constellation Centaurus.

This mass migration includes the Local Group, the Virgo Cluster, the Hydra--Centaurus Supercluster, and other groups and clusters for a distance of at least 60 Mpc up and downstream from us. It is as if a great river of galaxies (including our own) is flowing with a swift current of 600 km/s toward Centaurus.

Calculations indicate that ~1016 solar masses concentrated 65 Mpc away in the direction of Centaurus would account for this. This mass concentration has been dubbed the Great Attractor. Detailed investigation of that region of the galaxy cluster Abell 3627) finds 10 times too little visible matter to account for this flow, again implying a dominant gravitational role for unseen or dark matter. Thus, the Great Attractor is certainly there (because we see its gravitational influence), but the major portion of the mass that must be there cannot be seen in our telescopes.

Enoch, the only man recorded in the Scriptures to have been carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and who was anointed as his successor, was then escorted to the ends of time, where he witnessed the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire, beyond all measure in height and depth into the GREAT ABYSS, which is described by Enoch, as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which, there was nothing, not even the space in which the universe had existed.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the star of our solar system, can form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travellers through space unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct to their original form, with no damage done.

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

This in my MHO is the best theory as to the origin of our eternal AND BOUNDLESS EVER EVOLVING cosmos.

 

[PureX]

I know of 28 different explanations. Some even have the benefit of evidence, no god required for any.

But on the contrary. Those who believe the genesis account, or any of the many different creator god stories have no explanation other than god did it.

Your personal bias is noted.

 

[ChristineM]

Your personal bias is noted.

That is not bias,they are fact. And most certainly not personal.

First, of the various hypothesis (by scientists in the field of cosmology, not me so not personal) on how he universe formed, that i know of, not one requires god magic... Not one.

As for my second statement. can explain how god did it? Or are you content that you don't know so god of the gaps to the rescue?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The bible is filled with "God created" yet modern cosmology and evolution theory points to no godly intervention. How do I believe in the Bible's message inspite of this?

I see no contradiction. Evolution is simply God's modus operendi. The Big Bang is simply the description of the moment of Creation. Science describes the natural world as it functions within the Natural Laws. It in no way excludes the existence of something or someone beyond nature that is the source of those laws. The universe is more than just the material. Things like beauty, justice, and love are quite real.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is not bias,they are fact. And most certainly not personal.

First, of the various hypothesis (by scientists in the field of cosmology, not me so not personal) on how he universe formed, that i know of, not one requires god magic... Not one.

As for my second statement. can explain how god did it? Or are you content that you don't know so god of the gaps to the rescue?

You can deride it by calling it "magic," but the correct word is metaphysics, as it is related to physics. It is simply natural but not material.

 

[ChristineM]

You can deride it by calling it "magic," but the correct word is metaphysics, as it is related to physics. It is simply natural but not material.

No, physics relates to reality, what can be observed and measured. Metaphysics is yet another misnamed word to make the abstract, dreams and woo sound more wow.