How do you know the Quran is not the word of God?

[icehorse]

I agree with you that human behavior is related to the environment, weather and different cultures.

The poor simple ancestors who live in the Gulf before the oil tell shocking tales of the rape of children from the Western presence

Of course I agree that societies are shaped by many factors like the ones you've listed.

I also agree specifically that there have been terrible "Western Interventions".

But I don't agree that all of Islamic society's problems can be blamed on outside influences. Some can, but Islamists must also look inside to find the source of some of their problems. Over the last 1400 years, Islamists have perpetrated countless acts of aggression and violent attacks against their neighbors. Islam very frequently spread "by the sword". Much of Europe was devastated during WWI and WWII. Japan was devastated by WWII. They have all made fantastic recoveries. So while we can agree that many Muslim societies have had their share of misfortune, so have many other societies.

==

A "flywheel" in an engine helps keep the engine running at a smooth pace even when outside factors might try to upset the pace of the engine. If a spark plug fails to fire occasionally, the flywheel can keep the engine running smoothly.

In a similar way, in religious societies, the scripture acts as a sort of flywheel, keeping the messages of the religion stable across many generations. So while I'd agree that there are many factors that have led to the current state of the world, i think it's naive to imagine that ancient, flawed, divisive scripture has no negative impact.

 

[j1i]

Of course I agree that societies are shaped by many factors like the ones you've listed.

I also agree specifically that there have been terrible "Western Interventions".

But I don't agree that all of Islamic society's problems can be blamed on outside influences. Some can, but Islamists must also look inside to find the source of some of their problems. Over the last 1400 years, Islamists have perpetrated countless acts of aggression and violent attacks against their neighbors. Islam very frequently spread "by the sword". Much of Europe was devastated during WWI and WWII. Japan was devastated by WWII. They have all made fantastic recoveries. So while we can agree that many Muslim societies have had their share of misfortune, so have many other societies.

==

A "flywheel" in an engine helps keep the engine running at a smooth pace even when outside factors might try to upset the pace of the engine. If a spark plug fails to fire occasionally, the flywheel can keep the engine running smoothly.

In a similar way, in religious societies, the scripture acts as a sort of flywheel, keeping the messages of the religion stable across many generations. So while I'd agree that there are many factors that have led to the current state of the world, i think it's naive to imagine that ancient, flawed, divisive scripture has no negative impact.

Thanks brother
I like sharing and show each ither views by fair and honestly

Thank you brother for sharing
Lets start

Do not forget that Israel and Zionism came from a colony supported by the West to steal the lands of Palestine

I want to know how the Bible says steal the rights of others
I do not want to believe in the bible or the gospel if it is called theft


Example
We know that Mexicans go to America to work and there are Mexican terms that describe American monuments as well as Mexican culture in America
Does this mean that after 2,000 years the Mexicans prove that America is part of their homeland, that's ridiculous

Sacred Scripture and Archeology These are weak arguments for stealing

I will tell you the painful truth
The Israeli state is not a blessing because of Zionism
But the Jewish community is basically oppressed


As well as the greed of the West in Suez chanel in Egypt

It was in the interest of the West because of Israel's existence that pushed the region into destruction by bringing them into conflicts and assassinations

Right
There are mistakes from Muslims, but they must be fair
To see honorly

Do we want God to have us mercy
If we want to have a good fortune
If we want the pond
We should Be fair

Do not forget the Crusades
If history records wars, it is because of the political ruler's view, not because of the people
We know that political decisions are made by the president

I give you the example of Hitler was a Christian but the German society’s are mercy christians and was the victim of a crazy leader

Do not forget the French, the occupation of Algeria and the government's recognition of genocide

I know that Christianity is a religion of tolerance and positive

The unjust comments are the cause of bad luck

Note
Islamic History Ruling on people who wanted weapons in history agreed with you
Hahahah i want be fair to get luck

God bless you brother
GOOD luck

That why we need to underatand others

We, as a Muslim society, do not constitute a threat to Israel or to the West. We live a modest and merciful life. We help the needy. If we have criminals, in other societies also find criminals like

Other kind of Terrorists
Electronic threats, mafia and organized crime. Did you know that Islamic groups are given money to sabotage, we are a victim and if Jesus returns we are the first community to mersful us and show the truth

Sorry for my comment
May causes some navigation
I apologize

I have friends from Britain and America who are religious, compassionate and generous, and with religious differences, we are living together. But I do not judge religion because of politics. The negative effects of religion in the West, religion was separated from the state.

I know that the issue of Israel is the most sensitive and we are not against Israel, but it must be satisfied between the two sides, not the threat and the illegal housing units

 

[Twilight Hue]

The Qur’an like the Bible and Torah had to have some divine inspiration and if we entertain that truth how do we know God did not speak to us?

Well if I was to go that route, I would say it explains the trinity. Three different gods , three different religions , all under the same banner.

To be more direct with the question, I would say the lack of unity and cohesion would offer a dead ringer as to where the line of communication lays.

 

[icehorse]

Do not forget that Israel and Zionism came from a colony supported by the West to steal the lands of Palestine

Do not forget the Crusades
If history records wars, it is because of the political ruler's view, not because of the people

We, as a Muslim society, do not constitute a threat to Israel or to the West. We live a modest and merciful life.

I've tried to summarize your key points, let me know if you disagree with my summary.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that Israel stole land from the Palestinians. (While I don't actually agree, for this discussion, let's say it's true.) All across the ME, Muslims have been stealing much more land from nonMuslims. What would you say if somehow someone offered to give Israel back to the Palestinians, but in exchange, Muslims would have to give back all the land they've taken in the ME?

As for the Crusades, I think history shows that the Crusades were a tiny counter-attack after 400 years of violent Islamic conquest across the ME.

As for who causes wars, I agree it's mostly the leaders, not the people.

As for Muslims not constituting a threat, on that point I must disagree. I believe Islam is fundamentally divisive and inhumane. I agree that most Muslims live peaceful lives, but they also support the spread of intolerant ideas, whether they mean to or not. Now, you should know that I have similar concerns about Christians, I think both religions are a bad influence on society.

 

[j1i]

I've tried to summarize your key points, let me know if you disagree with my summary.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that Israel stole land from the Palestinians. (While I don't actually agree, for this discussion, let's say it's true.) All across the ME, Muslims have been stealing much more land from nonMuslims. What would you say if somehow someone offered to give Israel back to the Palestinians, but in exchange, Muslims would have to give back all the land they've taken in the ME?

As for the Crusades, I think history shows that the Crusades were a tiny counter-attack after 400 years of violent Islamic conquest across the ME.

As for who causes wars, I agree it's mostly the leaders, not the people.

As for Muslims not constituting a threat, on that point I must disagree. I believe Islam is fundamentally divisive and inhumane. I agree that most Muslims live peaceful lives, but they also support the spread of intolerant ideas, whether they mean to or not. Now, you should know that I have similar concerns about Christians, I think both religions are a bad influence on society.

Jerusalem did not live in peace except under the open of Islam
Now, 70 years ago, there is a war between Palestine and Israel

On the whole, on the Day of Resurrection there is a heavenly court that will judge every thief and will say the truth without lying
I will not write and defend because I have not seen any crime now except on television

with respect
thank you

 

[OrtaYol]

If any of the Abrahamic scripture was written by the creator of the universe, than that creator is either a psychopath or a sociopath.

But seriously, the odds of any of these books NOT being written by primitive men is exceedingly small.

You could only say that(psycho etc. ) if you judged Him by human standards.. which doesn't make much sense, God not being human and all.

The Quran states that it is the sperm that decides the gender of a baby, it refers to honey gathering bees in the feminine, it states that the Earth has an orbit, it states that the sun has an orbit, it states that the sky protects us, internal waves are mentioned, it indirectly states that the Earth is 1/3 the age of the universe, that the universe is expanding, that the sun produces light while the moon reflects it.

I would say the likelihood of primitive men producing such a book is exceedingly small.

 

[icehorse]

You could only say that(psycho etc. ) if you judged Him by human standards.. which doesn't make much sense, God not being human and all.

Of course I'm judging the idea of god by human standards. IMO, the idea of god is a manmade one. Your argument is non-falsifiable and as such doesn't hold any water for me.

The Quran states that it is the sperm that decides the gender of a baby, it refers to honey gathering bees in the feminine, it states that the Earth has an orbit, it states that the sun has an orbit, it states that the sky protects us, internal waves are mentioned, it indirectly states that the Earth is 1/3 the age of the universe, that the universe is expanding, that the sun produces light while the moon reflects it.

I would say the likelihood of primitive men producing such a book is exceedingly small.

Other ancient thinkers made many of the same discoveries before the Quran was written. AND, the Quran also makes a lot of mistakes. I think that the number of errors and inconsistencies in ALL scripture makes the likelihood of them being written by primitive men almost certain. And by "almost" I mean like 99.99999999999999999% certain.

 

[icehorse]

I will not write and defend because I have not seen any crime now except on television

Have you read the Quran? If so, can you explain to me why the Quran teaches intolerance of nonMuslims more than 500 times? Can you explain why the book is SO fixated on nonMuslims?

 

[j1i]

Have you read the Quran? If so, can you explain to me why the Quran teaches intolerance of nonMuslims more than 500 times? Can you explain why the book is SO fixated on nonMuslims?

Dear brother
Thank you for sharing
I guarantee you that my comments will be in love and positive


The Quran talks about events and the way they are treated based on conspiracies and attempts to kill Muslims
These provisions mean not against civilians but against invaders

This pushed a lot to attack Islam and intimidate it

The Qur'an also speaks about the nature of shared life and this is a year of coexistence

read this surah call the caw
256. There shall be no compulsion in religion; the right way has become distinct from the wrong way. Whoever renounces evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handle; which does not break. God is Hearing and Knowing.

read this surah call the disbelievers (al-kafirun)

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. Say, “O disbelievers.

2. I do not worship what you worship.

3. Nor do you worship what I worship.

4. Nor do I serve what you serve.

5. Nor do you serve what I serve.

6. You have your way, and I have my way.”


with respect (^_^)
GOD bless you
I hope you google my city
ras alkaimah
and this charrecter
Ahmad ibn Mājid - Wikipedia
his name Sinbad
Sinbad the Sailor - Wikipedia
Arabian Nights: Sinbad's Adventures - Wikipedia

also to see the toad in super mario

We succeed in coexistence even in games hahahha

 

[OrtaYol]

Of course I'm judging the idea of god by human standards. IMO, the idea of god is a manmade one. Your argument is non-falsifiable and as such doesn't hold any water for me.

No, that is not what I meant. You are judging the actions of God as if a human was committing them. For example, why is it usually wrong for a person to lie? I would suggest that it is because we cannot know the future implications of our lie, even if our lie lead to a beneficial event, that event may lead to something worse far down the road. The same reasoning could not be applied to an omnipotent and omniscient being, whether you believe in Its existence or not.

Other ancient thinkers made many of the same discoveries before the Quran was written. AND, the Quran also makes a lot of mistakes. I think that the number of errors and inconsistencies in ALL scripture makes the likelihood of them being written by primitive men almost certain. And by "almost" I mean like 99.99999999999999999% certain.

Other thinkers, predating the Quran identified that males decide the gender of a baby through the passing of the x or y chromosome? That the sun has an orbit, that the moon reflects light as opposed to producing it and that the Earth is 1/3 the age of the universe? Any examples? EDIT: I'd also like to add that I do not just find these impressive on their own but collectively every time the Quran makes a claim that is scientifically verifiable it fits what we know.

I am yet to find an error, I have found many people claiming to have found errors, I have searched many websites with lists of contradictions and falsehoods, I have found logical explanations for all.. which I gotta admit annoyed me at first.

 

[icehorse]

This pushed a lot to attack Islam and intimidate it

The Qur'an also speaks about the nature of shared life and this is a year of coexistence

I agree that sometimes the Quran talks about how Muslims should defend themselves. And sometimes the Quran talks about how to live peacefully with nonMuslims. But frequently the Quran preaches intolerance for all nonMuslims. When we take this all together, the conclusion is that the Quran is inconsistent.

There is a point I think is important for all people who read the Quran to understand. From the perspective of cognitive science, it is extremely unhealthy that the Quran preaches intolerance towards nonMuslims over 500 times. No matter how peaceful the reader is, this repeated message will cause the reader stress and confusion. The reader might not be consciously aware of this stress, but it is there.

 

[icehorse]

I am yet to find an error, I have found many people claiming to have found errors, I have searched many websites with lists of contradictions and falsehoods, I have found logical explanations for all.. which I gotta admit annoyed me at first.

How about the Quran's repeated claim that fresh water and salt water cannot mix?

 

[OrtaYol]

How about the Quran's repeated claim that fresh water and salt water cannot mix?

It claims that bodies of water exist where they do not mix, it does not claim that they cannot mix. Which is true. In fact the Quran goes into even more detail distinguishing between when this phenomenon happens in seas and when it happens in estuaries:

https://www.quora.com/The-Quran-say...on-context-of-this-verse-25-53/answer/Shai-22

The existence of such bodies of water wasn't scientifically verified til the 1960's btw

 

[icehorse]

It claims that bodies of water exist where they do not mix, it does not claim that they cannot mix. Which is true. In fact the Quran goes into even more detail distinguishing between when this phenomenon happens in seas and when it happens in estuaries:

https://www.quora.com/The-Quran-say...on-context-of-this-verse-25-53/answer/Shai-22

The existence of such bodies of water wasn't scientifically verified til the 1960's btw

I'm going to agree with the authors of this article:

Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

 

[OrtaYol]

Lol, wikiIslam? Well you have certainly chosen a balanced source of information

Instead of relying on third parties could you just quote one or more of the multiple instances of the Quran claiming that it is impossible for salt water and freshwater to mix?

EDIT: Here is the quote in wikiIslam btw:

"It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Qur'an 25:53"


What part of this leads you to believe that the Quran is referring to all water?

 

[icehorse]

What part of this leads you to believe that the Quran is referring to all water?

A parsimonious reading of a translation done by Quranic experts?

 

[icehorse]

Lol, wikiIslam? Well you have certainly chosen a balanced source of information

I'm happy to agree that they have an agenda. But they're also making a series of factual claims. The claims should stand or fall on their own merit, correct?

 

[Notanumber]

Extremists are violent, not your average Muslim.

How do you know for certain?

 

[OrtaYol]

I'm happy to agree that they have an agenda. But they're also making a series of factual claims. The claims should stand or fall on their own merit, correct?

Well they are making claims, you are yet to show any of them being factual. The one you pointed out about the Quran claiming salt water and fresh water never mix seems to be bunk.

Here are the verses mentioning the mixing of waters:

“God is the one who caused two bodies of water to flow, one palpable and sweet, the other salty and bitter.
He placed a barrier between them, a partition that they are forbidden to surmount”. ( Quran 25:53)

“He causes two bodies of water to flow and meet together, but between them is a barrier that they cannot surmount”. (Quran 55:19-20)

“ who has made the earth firm to live in, made rivers in its midst, set on it immovable mountains, and made a barrier between two bodies of flowing g water? (Can there be another) god beside God. No, but most of them do not know”. (Quran 27:61)

“Nor are the two bodies of flowing water alike, for one is palatable, sweet, and pleasant to drink,while the other is salty and bitter. Yet from each you eat fresh and tender meat and extract ornaments to wear. You see ships therein that sail through the waves that you may seek the bounty of God and be grateful. (Quran 35:12)

None of them have any indication that all water is being referred to, on the contrary it is clear that God is talking about specific bodies of water.

These are facts we did not know until very recently, your example does the opposite of what you are trying to achieve, it is further evidence of the Qurans divinity.

 

[icehorse]

None of them have any indication that all water is being referred to, on the contrary it is clear that God is talking about specific bodies of water.

These are facts we did not know until very recently, your example does the opposite of what you are trying to achieve, it is further evidence of the Qurans divinity.

We're not going to agree on this. I don't think there is much clear about these verses. The best case for the apologist is that they are ambiguous. The more ambiguously a verse is written, the more you'll be able to fit it to match the occasional rare instance. This isn't a sign of divinity, it's a sign of weak, uncertain writing.