How do you know GOD is there?

[Dunemeister]

No, 2+2=4 because of the numeric system. The fact that it feels more comfortable for you is irrelevant. If you were raised to learn that 2+2=5 than that equation would feel most comfortable for you.

Fine, it's the numeric system. Given that system, the feeling that 2+2=4 is true is unshakable. We know it because it feels right.

But actually 2+2=4 can be mathematically proven. For example, if you take 2 items of something, add one item, you now have three, and add one more item, now you have four. The number systems are just labels that we put on numeric values. I wouldn't get too hung up on the labels.

That's not "proving" anything. That's simply operating within the assumptions of the definitions provided by the system. And like I said, we know that what follows from our assumptions is true because the conclusions feel right. That's all logical validity is: a feeling.

 

[Falvlun]

Fine, it's the numeric system. Given that system, the feeling that 2+2=4 is true is unshakable. We know it because it feels right.

Are you truly claiming that the fact that if you have two fish and you add two fish you now have four fish is only true because it "feels" right?

That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Riverwolf]

Would you care to explain, how you came to the conclusion that what you experienced is GOD?

I've experienced the Oneness of all things, and that, to me, is God (Brahman). Whether or not It's individually conscious, I don't know.

I've only been able to experience It a couple of times, however.

 

[Dunemeister]

Are you truly claiming that the fact that if you have two fish and you add two fish you now have four fish is only true because it "feels" right?

That makes absolutely no sense.

It may be a novel way (for you) to look at it, but that's far from "it makes no sense." The case you present is not the same as the one I'm considering. I'm considering the proposition

A: 2+2=4

Or

B: (a + b) + (c + d) = ac + ad + bc + bd

Once we have the concept of number, which is an undefined entity (because it's too basic to define in terms of anything else), A and B follow but CANNOT BE PROVEN. They are simply GIVEN or STIPULATED. Yet there's nothing wrong with them for all that. They are true. But how do we know? They simply "feel" right.

This intuition may seem dubitable, particularly when you import physical examples, such as seeing three fish and then adding one. The questioner then scoffs, "Are you seriously suggesting that the reason I know there are four fish in the tank is because that 'feels right'?" Answer: "Yes I am."

It's really not all that controversial to say so. It seems weird because these numeric intuitions are so basic for us that we may barely notice them. (Who questions basic math, anyway?) Consider, the case of Orwell's 1984. The hero is a prisoner of the Ministry of Truth. The questioner holds up three fingers and asks "How many fingers do you see?" Winston says "three." The questioner says "No, there are four" and tortures the hero with the intent of forcing him to honestly believe that there are four. The hapless hero sees three. He understands numbers. And God help him, it just seems to him that there are three fingers there. He can't bring himself to believe (at first) that there are four fingers there despite his torturer's demand that he so believe.

Although in a novel, this demonstrates what I'm trying to get at. In the case of arithmetical truths, we simply "feel" that certain things are right and others wrong. So long as the cognitive machinery is working right (and part of the story of 1984 is that a kind of insanity needed it be induced to go along with the Ministry of Truth), our feelings don't play us false.

So yes, you know 2+2=4 on the basis of your feelings. So heed Obi Wan Kenobi: Trust your feelings (at least as far as basic math is concerned).

 

[Dunemeister]

Are you truly claiming that the fact that if you have two fish and you add two fish you now have four fish is only true because it "feels" right?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Addendum: I'm not talking about what MAKES the statement true. I'm talking about HOW WE KNOW it's true.

 

[Tristesse]

Fine, it's the numeric system. Given that system, the feeling that 2+2=4 is true is unshakable. We know it because it feels right.



That's not "proving" anything. That's simply operating within the assumptions of the definitions provided by the system. And like I said, we know that what follows from our assumptions is true because the conclusions feel right. That's all logical validity is: a feeling.

No, you don't know it because it feels right, you know it because we've decided to label quantities by certain labels. If you were raised to believe that 2+2=5 than that numeric construct would "feel" right to you.

That is proof. It's really simple. If I give you one apple, how many do you have? If I give you one more apple How many do you have now? And if I give you two more apples how many do you now have? All numeric constructs are labels that humans put on particular values of something. There is nothing intrinsic about quantity, it's just the label we put on that particular numeric value.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really, I don't know.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

God left a message in my Alpha-Bits; it said "OOOOOOOOO"!

...Nevermind, they were Cheerios.

 

[reyjamiei]

LooseEnd,
First allow me to give you a little warning. If you want to be pleasing to the Almighty God you will only attend religious meetings of a religion that teaches truth, as spoken in the Holy Bible. Consider this, Matt 5:19, which tells us about anyone who teaches anyone something that contradicts the Bible, breaking God's laws.

Matt 5:19 is not referring to the Bible...It is referring to Jewish law as outlined in the Torah as evidenced in the preceding two verses...Matt 5:17-18...17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Consider this; The Bible says that anyone who has any other teachings other than what is said in the Holy Scriptures are CURSED!! Look up Gal 1:6-9,

This comes from Paul who himself preached a different gospel than Jesus and his disciples...As Saul of Tarsus he was the biggest persecutor of the church and he successfully infiltrated the church set himself up as an apostle and distorted the churches teachings...Jesus and his disciples taught that faith without works was dead...good works being necessary for salvation...Paul taught that good works were unnecessary and that by faith alone a person would be given the free gift of salvation by the grace of god...Jesus taught that he did not come to abolish the law...Paul taught that Jesus did abolish the law...just to name a couple...

Rev 22:18,19, and contemplate what these scriptures mean.

Rev 22:18-19 is referring to the book of Revelations...not the Bible as a whole...The Bible had not been compiled at that time...Deuteronomy 4:2 says basically the same thing...if you use the christian interpretation for Rev 22:18-19 to this verse then everything after Deuteronomy has been added to the Bible and should be discarded...

The truth is; we do not need any other book, the Bible is all the Inspired book we need to do everything required of God, 2Tim 3:16,17.

2 Tim 3:16-17 doesn't say anything about the Bible...it says all scripture is inspired by god...

People who want to be acceptable to God cannot be partaking of false teachings along with truth, 1Cor 10:20-22.

And yet Paul's false teachings are a part of the Bible...

Jesus told, many times about false teachers, Matt 7:15-20, 2Pet 2:2,3, Col 2:8. All true Christians teach only the truth, John 4:23,24, 2Thes 2:9-12.

He did...and the church still couldn't determine that Paul was in fact a false teacher...

Pick out any one of the teachings of the LDS's and if you do just a little research you will find that their teaching are not based on God's word.

What about this teaching of the LDS Church...That Jesus was the son of god...he was crucified and resurrected after three days...or that Jesus is the saviour of mankind...

 

[Daisy333]

Aquinas was a anti-Semitic bigot and religious fanatic.

As for his "proofs"

Proof #1: The Uncaused Cause
Illogical. If everything must be cause THEN WHAT CAUSED god. If god did not have a cause then the universe need not have a cause.

Mover This is merely assigning a word to an unanswered question. I could call it the FSM.

Proof #3: Proof of Necessity and Contingency
We see things today that have not always existed, and we call these "contingent beings." In order to explain the existence of contingent beings, we must conclude that a necessary being exists.

WHY?

There is no middle term here, merely an unsupported assumption.

Proof #4: Proof from Perfection

No, does not follow. I can merely say that for me and most people A is more pleasing than B. There is NO objective test that can establish that comparison. Merely the sum of opinions.


5th Proof: Proof from Design

This is ID nonsense. There is no proof that ANYTHING in nature was designed. Was a snowflake? How about ripples in a pool? If you draw to an inside straight and get it was that hand designed?

Their is considerable evidence for the "BELIEF" in god.

None for any god - ever.

Ok well I think that we need to take a closer look at this. I don't just believe that God exists. I KNOW that God exists because of what I have seen and heard from the testimonies of others and also from my own experiences. I also know because God's existence is a highly rational explanation for our existence and that of the universe. I would like to comment on your opinions, and I'm not debating for the fun of it, I'm simply proving a point.

Proof #1: This is not illogical. The point is that God is eternal, and so He does not have a beginning or an end. Just because the human mind does not grasp this does not mean that it is not possible. It is possible to come to terms with the fact that we cannot understand everything about God, but still have enough knowledge to know that He DOES exist. God is infinite. He does not need a cause. The universe is finite, and so it does.

Proof #2: Well, I call Him God.

Proof #3: We must conclude that a necessary being exists, because it just doesn't make sense to say that a contingent being, "poof," came out of nowhere. You can't have a dependent being without an independent being. It just doesn't make sense. You don't need a middle term. It's pure logic.

Proof #4: Everything is in fact not subjective. Take beauty for example. Emotion is a sense response to something external. Now, you may think that this is what beauty is, but it actually is not. Beauty is not on the same level of intelligence as emotion. Here is another thing to think about: What do you consider as beautiful, objectively? Compare it to something that is less beautiful. Because you just compared these two things, you have proven that beauty has degrees. This presupposes a perfection. Do you accept that the Luve in Paris is more beautiful than a 1st Grader's piece of artwork? Can you think of anyone of normal intelligence who would not think this, besides maybe the one who created the picture (because of personal bias)?

Proof #5: Yes, a snowflake and ripples in a pool were in fact designed. At the beginning of the universe, however it began, if the temperatures were a trillionth of a degree hotter or colder, the carbon molecule which is the foundation of all human life could have never come about. Sounds like design to me.

I'm not trying to make you angry, bitter, or defensive. I'm not playing a "try to prove the other person wrong game." I'm searching for the truth, and I am pretty darn convinced that I found it. I don't think that I'm any better than you. I'm just trying to show what I have found.

 

[lemo]

So have you realized GOD is there? Can you describe how you realized it?

Meditation

 

[Mister Emu]

So you don't know what your god said? Or don't want to share? Or perhaps forgot?

YOU made the claim that your god talks to you. Seems only logical to ask what it said.

After all the master of the universe took time out of his (supposedly) busy day to chat with YOU. And many of the folks who claim a similar experience were/are only TOO willing to share the substance of their conversations.

Why so reticent about yours?

You return with the derisive attitude...

As I said, it appears you are more concerned with ridicule than attaining the answer to your query... Those two ends are at odds with each other...

 

[RomCat]

There are no words that can describe how
I know. I just know!

 

[Falvlun]

Addendum: I'm not talking about what MAKES the statement true. I'm talking about HOW WE KNOW it's true.

I'm sorry. I just don't understand what you are getting at. The fact that I know two plus two equals four has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about it; it's because through experience with physical quantities, I have experienced it being true. That's why we teach kids how to count by giving them blocks or something concrete to play with, to make the abstract concept of numbers more concrete.

Now, I am assuming you are not simply talking about the names we have given these quantities. Two plus two equals four is just as true as dos plus dos equals cuatro, or flipper plus flipper equals flopper (if we were taught that flipper is the name for a quantity of two, and flopper was four, of course.).

 

[LooseEnd]

Friend LooseEnd,

;
It is evident you are visiting the church to tie up the loose ends.
Give you full marks for asking the right question.
How do one knows there is God?
Before you if there is God we should know what is God?
If you would response about your understanding of what God is, shall walk the distance together!

Love & rgds

Thanks.
Well, I was referring to the omnimax GOD they(LDS) were talking about. I do not have an understanding of GOD since I'm not sure there really is a GOD. I think if would be best if you define your GOD and then explain how you know he is there.

 

[LooseEnd]

The concept "number" is undefined, and the operator of addition is a mere stipulation about how you can relate these undefined entities/values/quantities (whatever you want to call them).

Of course the concept 'number' is not real, its just a creation of man, to explain certain things. But the creation goes along with the truth and verifies the nature of the universe. In that sense it is ok to assume the concept is the truth. It is not because it feels right.
we know 2+2=4 because we defined the number system in such a way.
If we defined it to be 2+2=5 then that is also true, it is just that the definition fits with what we see and test everyday. This is the best I can explain with my limited vocabulary I guess. Hope I made any sense.

I can agree with you when you say that GOD is a feeling for you. But saying 'feeling' is all we have to see truth is just wrong.
[/quote]

 

[LooseEnd]

You don't need scripture of any kind to answer this.
Look in the mirror.

Your form has five senses. Each is different, but yields it's portion of perception to your mind.
You have two eyes to view your surroundings, two feet to change those surroundings and two hands to manipulate as you see fit.
There is no mystery to life.
All of this is a learning experience.

Why?

Picture yourself as God....yes you can.
Look in the 'mirror'.
Your reflection is perfect....but there is no conversation.
Each question you would ask, would have the perfect answer.

You are alone.

There is the universe...the creation...and though it responds to your touch...
it does not really respond.

Man is that part of creation that is unique.
Your linear existence insures it.
Your lack of knowing all things...creates 'the' question.

Would you like to question God?
Go ahead.
It's what He has been waiting for.

Hmm, does this answer explain how you know GOD exists? If so I didn't see it. Why don't you explain it again plainly?

 

[LooseEnd]

I've only been able to experience It a couple of times, however.

Care to explain how you experienced it and what exactly you experienced?

I understand your view of GOD is different. If I remember correctly sometime ago you told me that you believe in something called monoism.

 

[LooseEnd]

Meditation

Ok so when you were meditating, how did you know GOD is there? Did you see him? Did he speak to you or is it a feeling you felt?

 

[LooseEnd]

I KNOW that God exists because of what I have seen and heard from the testimonies of others and also from my own experiences.

I'm really interested to know what your own experiences are. I'm looking for anything beyond just a 'feeling'.

I also know because God's existence is a highly rational explanation for our existence and that of the universe. I would like to comment on your opinions, and I'm not debating for the fun of it, I'm simply proving a point.

Assuming God's existence is a highly rational explanation for our existence and that of the universe, it still seems like just a reason to assume that there's a high probability that he exists, How you KNOW I cannot see.