How do Pagans resurrect the old?

[Sha'irullah]

How do pagans take seriously what belongs to such ancient cultures that had such different values then we do today?

Why bother resurrecting a crippled horse? How can it still benefit you if it beyond your modern needs? Why not create your own modern day pantheons and rely on ancient cultures that no longer exists or are relevant? Are these cults not outdated and no longer relevant?

The more I see pagans the more I noticed that they alter the cults or syncretize the pantheons to such an extent it bares little resemblance to the practice.

On top of this many deities are no longer valid. Deities like Horus were used to signify the monarchy and divine blessing. Other deities had similar purposes or where used to symbolized other out of date institutes.
. . .

No offence when I made the crippled horse analogy . I was just trying to make a point.

 

[Nietzsche]

How do pagans take seriously what belongs to such ancient cultures that had such different values then we do today?

You mean like the seemingly heat-stroke induced ramblings of bronze-age illiterate goat-herders? Two can play this game.

Why bother resurrecting a crippled horse? How can it still benefit you if it beyond your modern needs? Why not create your own modern day pantheons and rely on ancient cultures that no longer exists or are relevant? Are these cults not outdated and no longer relevant?

Crippled? I can't speak for the others, but if you live anywhere in the western world, a good 2/3rds of our culture is taken directly from Germanic pagans. If anything, society resembles pre-Christianized Norse culture more now than it has since the heyday of the Norse. They were extremely cosmopolitan, didn't particularly care who you ****ed or why so long as it was consensual(they in fact have some of the earliest recorded instances of women being compensated for rape rather than their husband or father being compensated), so on and so forth.

The more I see pagans the more I noticed that they alter the cults or syncretize the pantheons to such an extent it bares little resemblance to the practice.

Not all of us, not even a majority of us, do that. Not to mention that was a perfectly acceptable thing for pagans to do back in the day. Rome collected gods with the same vigour they collected territories.

On top of this many deities are no longer valid. Deities like Horus were used to signify the monarchy and divine blessing. Other deities had similar purposes or where used to symbolized other out of date institutes.

I could make the exact same argument sourcing the Bible. There are no mentions of elected leaders or the like, just the divine right of the hereditary ruling class.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ive always wondered the same questions but from a somewhat perspective. I'm not a pagan in the Eeuropean sense of the term but more African oriented.

Regardless, though,

How do pagans take seriously what belongs to such ancient cultures that had such different values then we do today?

Pretend that you have a family (if you dont) and you are maybe 80 years old. You have built values, norms, behaviors (cultural traditions) within your family that you do not want to die out. Now you are part of a full community of people that share similar values with their own given norms depending on their location within the country. Regardless, the key is shared norms, traditions, and the need to pass on those practices from one generation to the next.

So your children grow old, their children, and their childrens children. But you are not alone as a family. You are part of a community. Communities branch out and regardless the time period, the motiation and goals are the same as well as the values that shape and change as generations go on until today.

So, Eueropeans today depending on where they are, are still part of a family line of traditions that IS a part of them even if they did not grow up when those traditions begin. (Even if your great great great great great grandchild was born in Hawaii and practice religions in her home country, she is still part of your blood.

So, like other pagans (as she would be considered if she did this) pagans take up and learn about cultures and values that they feel by heirtage they are connected to. It gives us (I will say) a sense of grounding and foundationt o not only know the present-which is important too. Not to yearn for the future since we dont know but to Know where we came from as well.

Its like you are saying to focus on painting a building without acknowledging who built it and who made the foundation of that building. We are all in a community of people.

So....

Why bother resurrecting a crippled horse? How can it still benefit you if it beyond your modern needs? Why not create your own modern day pantheons and rely on ancient cultures that no longer exists or are relevant? Are these cults not outdated and no longer relevant?

On that note, some pagans learn about their heritage beliefs and values as much as they can and apply it to their lives.

For example, a somewhat uniseral value (new agers like protestants some dont do this but not all), the wisdom and knowledge of our ancestors and family in spirit. This is not an "ancient" tradition but one that has been practiced in many forms throughout more than thousands of centuries.

Learning about ones geneology in regards to say where one is from helps a pagan not to reconstruct old ways but to continue the generations of practices even little by little so they go on.

Its benefitial because there are no such thing as Old traditions. Traditions and practices grow and are shaped by the next generation based on where they are and their environment. So thousands of years ago, pagan X may have honored his ancestor by doing one thing while today, the person of same blood and culture may do the same by taking a cigarette lighter to lit a candle instead.

Modern paganism is different but I wouldnt say its modern just its former practiced shaped by the present. All religions go through this from christianity and hindu to, I dontk now Zulu and Lukumi.

The more I see pagans the more I noticed that they alter the cults or syncretize the pantheons to such an extent it bares little resemblance to the practice.

Because there is a huge gap of our parents and our culture given we are great-great-great-greats+ like contrary to popular belief, I find it very difficult to assume the catholicism practiced today has any resemblance to what jesus and his disciples did back when. So its a normal gap. Nothing wrong with that.

On top of this many deities are no longer valid. Deities like Horus were used to signify the monarchy and divine blessing. Other deities had similar purposes or where used to symbolized other out of date institutes.

This depends on the pagan not the deity. It depends on how that pagan sees the deity and more than likely deities dont die (far as I know, right pagans?) so they cant be invalid.

To relate it to my faith, spirits do not die. Nothing disapears out of thin air. So nothing is obsolete. We use cultures from the past that inrich us in the present and guide us in the future. Not many people see the past as valuale until they reach their mid years going through mid life crisis. Im fortunate to have experiences to make me study and learn this early.

Many pagans dont reinvent pagan traditions just try to keep them going without letting them die out. Reconstruction is a poor word for it but it depends on the pagan.

 

[Quintessence]

Sha'irullah, I went ahead and moved this thread out of a DIR (something so critical is not appropriate for a DIR) and into the proper forum. Religions Q&A didn't exist when you were last here, but this forum is where you can ask questions like this provided you are only looking for discussion and not debate. We can also move it to religious debates if you are thinking you want this to be a debate.

I'll post up a proper reply to this in a bit, but I have to run to a meeting.

 

[Father Heathen]

How do pagans take seriously what belongs to such ancient cultures that had such different values then we do today?

Why bother resurrecting a crippled horse? How can it still benefit you if it beyond your modern needs? Why not create your own modern day pantheons and rely on ancient cultures that no longer exists or are relevant? Are these cults not outdated and no longer relevant?

The more I see pagans the more I noticed that they alter the cults or syncretize the pantheons to such an extent it bares little resemblance to the practice.

On top of this many deities are no longer valid. Deities like Horus were used to signify the monarchy and divine blessing. Other deities had similar purposes or where used to symbolized other out of date institutes.
. . .

No offence when I made the crippled horse analogy . I was just trying to make a point.

It's more like going to an antique store and saying "Oh, that would look nice on the mantle."

 

[Quintessence]

How do pagans take seriously what belongs to such ancient cultures that had such different values then we do today?

Honestly, I don't understand the question. This is like asking "why bother taking classical music seriously when it's so ancient and antiquated?" If you don't like classical music, don't listen to it. Your reaction to it speaks only to yourself, not to the genre. If you don't find value or inspiration in the Paganisms of antiquity, then don't bother with it. Unlike some other religions, it's not like we try to convert you to our paths.

But you also beg a question here. Did our ancestors have "such different values?" Furthermore, if someone living today doesn't identify with the cultural values that prevail in their country, why wouldn't they seek inspiration from something else that they might connect with? Many who are drawn to contemporary Paganism do so because they feel like aliens in their own culture. They don't connect with it, and they don't find it inspiring. But they do find Paganisms of antiquity inspiring. It is like genre/aesthetic preference in that regard, which is why I use the analogy of music.

Why not create your own modern day pantheons and rely on ancient cultures that no longer exists or are relevant?

It's your opinion that these things are no longer relevant, and this is like asking "why not create a new music genre instead of utilizing the styles and themes of an existing one?" To that I ask "why on earth would I want to completely reinvent the wheel when there are perfectly good sources of inspiration that I find amazing and fun to work with?" Besides, it's not like these things are stagnant. Paganisms aren't like these dogmatic religions where there's some authority laying down the incontrovertible truth about the gods. Our understanding of the gods changes through time, and because of that it seems to me we are creating "modern pantheons" through this process. There are few who are interested in fossilizing and dogmatizing our understanding of the gods to exactly what the ancestors thought. Largely because this is simply impractical in many cases. As an example, those inspired by Celtic mythos have very little to work with in terms of preserved stories or artifacts. You have to revive it. That is what contemporary Paganism is all about - it's a revival, a reconstruction. It modernizes the aesthetics and ideas of our ancestors for today. I think we do a pretty darned good job of it.

The more I see pagans the more I noticed that they alter the cults or syncretize the pantheons to such an extent it bares little resemblance to the practice.

I think @Nietzsche addressed some of this pretty well. Honestly, one of the major appeals of polytheistic religions is that it isn't some exclusivist club of "you can only worship these gods but not these other gods." If a particular Pagan wants to focus on honoring historical gods from some particular area, they are free to do that. But it isn't required or mandatory. In other words, we're not all reconstructionists who obsess about historical authenticity. They're in the minority, as far as I'm aware. Each sort of approach has its value.

On top of this many deities are no longer valid. Deities like Horus were used to signify the monarchy and divine blessing. Other deities had similar purposes or where used to symbolized other out of date institutes.

A couple of problems here. As I mentioned earlier, our understanding of the gods changes through time. This is true not just of Pagan religions, but of any theistic religion. And, as I said, part of the point of contemporary Paganisms is to revive and reconstruct the traditions of our ancestors for the modern day. Given we don't tend to be mythological literalists, we wouldn't tell this narrative like you have here. The second problem is that word "valid" you used there. What on earth does that mean? I honestly don't know. As far as I've been able to determine, that word "valid" boils down to silly human posturing of "I agree/disagree with this." If you disagree with these paths, fine. Again, unlike some other religions, it's not like we're trying to convert you. Don't like it? Don't do it. The contemporary Pagan movement allows, if not outright encourages personal exploration and path-building.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Frankly, we can't. What is dead - both culturally and biologically - cannot be resurrected. What we can do is revive what traditions and folklore still exist, and reconstruct what is not. In this sense, every effort within Paganism is a reconstructionist effort. "Reconstructionist" paths that are named so tend to try and recreate the past more literally than most.

This is one of the bigger reasons why I use the terms "Pagan" and "Paganism" as I do; we are not the past, and past ways are essentially gone. We are something "new", something modern - despite claims to ancient roots and "unbroken lineages". Yes, our gods are old, but our worship of them is not.

This is also the reason that I am a huge proponent of using the past for inspiration, but taking care not to let it limit us. A lot of people in the Heathen Community are quite hung up on the lore, and what we know of the Norse. If it can't be "proven" in such, they don't want it around. This ranges from the way things are done, words that are used, to which Gods should or should not be worshiped. It's silly, I think, and limiting. I'm not for including every god across Europe in Heathen ritual and worship, but "The Lore" isn't a bible.

We ought focus on today, and tomorrow, not yesterday. Learn from yesterday, but don't live in it.

 

[Nietzsche]

Frankly, we can't. What is dead - both culturally and biologically - cannot be resurrected. What we can do is revive what traditions and folklore still exist, and reconstruct what is not. In this sense, every effort within Paganism is a reconstructionist effort. "Reconstructionist" paths that are named so tend to try and recreate the past more literally than most.

Eh. I don't point this out to be pedantic or an ***, but for those unaware there are a handful(literally a handful, probably no more than a few hundred) unbroken pagan lineages in the more rural areas of the Baltic, Scandinavia and the like, areas where Christendom just decided it wasn't worth the effort.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Sha'irullah, I went ahead and moved this thread out of a DIR (something so critical is not appropriate for a DIR) and into the proper forum. Religions Q&A didn't exist when you were last here, but this forum is where you can ask questions like this provided you are only looking for discussion and not debate. We can also move it to religious debates if you are thinking you want this to be a debate.

I'll post up a proper reply to this in a bit, but I have to run to a meeting.

I did not want this to be a debate, just something informative. I am trying to collect opinions that tackle them. Thanks though chum

 

[Sha'irullah]

Honestly, I don't understand the question. This is like asking "why bother taking classical music seriously when it's so ancient and antiquated?" If you don't like classical music, don't listen to it. Your reaction to it speaks only to yourself, not to the genre. If you don't find value or inspiration in the Paganisms of antiquity, then don't bother with it. Unlike some other religions, it's not like we try to convert you to our paths.

You hit a soft spot of mine because I really appreciate classical music .
My issue is not that it is old per se. Many things are old but not out of date, I view paganism as out of date essentially. Not that polytheism, animism or anything like that is out of date but that the elements of it like the deities and their concepts are just no longer valid.

But you also beg a question here. Did our ancestors have "such different values?" Furthermore, if someone living today doesn't identify with the cultural values that prevail in their country, why wouldn't they seek inspiration from something else that they might connect with? Many who are drawn to contemporary Paganism do so because they feel like aliens in their own culture. They don't connect with it, and they don't find it inspiring. But they do find Paganisms of antiquity inspiring. It is like genre/aesthetic preference in that regard, which is why I use the analogy of music.

Fair enough.

It's your opinion that these things are no longer relevant, and this is like asking "why not create a new music genre instead of utilizing the styles and themes of an existing one?" To that I ask "why on earth would I want to completely reinvent the wheel when there are perfectly good sources of inspiration that I find amazing and fun to work with?" Besides, it's not like these things are stagnant. Paganisms aren't like these dogmatic religions where there's some authority laying down the incontrovertible truth about the gods. Our understanding of the gods changes through time, and because of that it seems to me we are creating "modern pantheons" through this process. There are few who are interested in fossilizing and dogmatizing our understanding of the gods to exactly what the ancestors thought. Largely because this is simply impractical in many cases. As an example, those inspired by Celtic mythos have very little to work with in terms of preserved stories or artifacts. You have to revive it. That is what contemporary Paganism is all about - it's a revival, a reconstruction. It modernizes the aesthetics and ideas of our ancestors for today. I think we do a pretty darned good job of it.

I think @Nietzsche addressed some of this pretty well. Honestly, one of the major appeals of polytheistic religions is that it isn't some exclusivist club of "you can only worship these gods but not these other gods." If a particular Pagan wants to focus on honoring historical gods from some particular area, they are free to do that. But it isn't required or mandatory. In other words, we're not all reconstructionists who obsess about historical authenticity. They're in the minority, as far as I'm aware. Each sort of approach has its value.

Never thought of it like that. My issue with this is that I view cultures as unique, racial and geographical part of humanity. WHen I look at contemporary paganism I get this jarring sensation that somebody has just lifted something from the earth that is no longer theirs and cannot be understood anymore.

A couple of problems here. As I mentioned earlier, our understanding of the gods changes through time. This is true not just of Pagan religions, but of any theistic religion. And, as I said, part of the point of contemporary Paganisms is to revive and reconstruct the traditions of our ancestors for the modern day. Given we don't tend to be mythological literalists, we wouldn't tell this narrative like you have here. The second problem is that word "valid" you used there. What on earth does that mean? I honestly don't know. As far as I've been able to determine, that word "valid" boils down to silly human posturing of "I agree/disagree with this." If you disagree with these paths, fine. Again, unlike some other religions, it's not like we're trying to convert you. Don't like it? Don't do it. The contemporary Pagan movement allows, if not outright encourages personal exploration and path-building.

I am very well aware of this in terms of other religions. Most of these religions though did not have to be revived and I personally view them as obsolete tools of people in modern times. I am an atheist though and I do appreciate religion so it is hard for me to grasp so many things about it.
Call it a personal weakness.

 

[Quintessence]

My issue is not that it is old per se. Many things are old but not out of date, I view paganism as out of date essentially. Not that polytheism, animism or anything like that is out of date but that the elements of it like the deities and their concepts are just no longer valid.

I suppose I'm not clear on what you feel isn't valid, perhaps in part because I'm not clear on what you mean by "valid." Valid to whom? Obviously, outsiders of any religious tradition are going to find elements of those traditions "not valid" because they disagree with them, but of what relevance are these judgements of outsiders? Just as obviously, those who practice these traditions would certainly not describe them as "invalid" because they would not be practicing these things if they thought so!

I have to wonder if part of the trouble is approaching the mythology of these religions from the wrong angle. Interpretation and appreciation of storytelling is something that needs to be learned, and while some of this is covered in basic education, many of us don't take it very far in our personal lives. For many contemporary Pagans, learning to find meaningfulness in the stories and adapt them to the modern day is a big part of the practice. You used the example earlier of Horus being related to outdated institutions. Most of us would see no reason to limit Horus like that and understand His governance of monarchies to be more broadly applicable to ideas of authority and rulership. Some knowledge of the gods we obtain through working with them directly. Prophets aren't so much a thing in Paganisms because we'll tend to relate directly with our gods instead of using intermediaries. Then, you get into complicated issues like intersubjective verification of experiences and blah, blah, blah. Not sure we need to (or want to) get into that.

Me? I don't worry about that stuff. I'm one of those Pagans who really doesn't work much with historical assemblages of gods or with historically-named deities. In part because of what you mention here, actually:

My issue with this is that I view cultures as unique, racial and geographical part of humanity. WHen I look at contemporary paganism I get this jarring sensation that somebody has just lifted something from the earth that is no longer theirs and cannot be understood anymore.

I live in North America, so the gods indigenous to my lands - the ones I want to develop a relationship with - aren't those European Paganisms. That's not to say those gods don't have some presence here, but they are not my focus. I used to think that it was just not possible to identify and connect with gods from some distant land, kinda like what you say here. And there's definitely some truth to this. However, as I've gotten more experience and actually bothered to reach out to and relate with those gods, I've had some unexpected results. It works better than you might think. Like cultivating any sort of relationship, it takes time and effort on your part. And, like any sort of relationship, sometimes it isn't meant to be and is not going to work for you. A beauty of these paths is that they're flexible enough to allow for that. You don't have to keep beating your head up against the wall because you can't develop a relationship with the "right" deity or some such rubbish.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I suppose I'm not clear on what you feel isn't valid, perhaps in part because I'm not clear on what you mean by "valid." Valid to whom? Obviously, outsiders of any religious tradition are going to find elements of those traditions "not valid" because they disagree with them, but of what relevance are these judgements of outsiders? Just as obviously, those who practice these traditions would certainly not describe them as "invalid" because they would not be practicing these things if they thought so!

I mean valid in the sense that I don't find them capable of expressing modern ideals. As I said before, these pantheons are based on monarchic systems or superstitious thought that no longer expresses our frame of mind. So I would argue that it is a waste trying to dwell on them so much. I would say that some gods are completely valid, as you can tell I have been obsessed with Minerva/Athena for quite some time.

I have to wonder if part of the trouble is approaching the mythology of these religions from the wrong angle. Interpretation and appreciation of storytelling is something that needs to be learned, and while some of this is covered in basic education, many of us don't take it very far in our personal lives. For many contemporary Pagans, learning to find meaningfulness in the stories and adapt them to the modern day is a big part of the practice. You used the example earlier of Horus being related to outdated institutions. Most of us would see no reason to limit Horus like that and understand His governance of monarchies to be more broadly applicable to ideas of authority and rulership. Some knowledge of the gods we obtain through working with them directly. Prophets aren't so much a thing in Paganisms because we'll tend to relate directly with our gods instead of using intermediaries. Then, you get into complicated issues like intersubjective verification of experiences and blah, blah, blah. Not sure we need to (or want to) get into that.

I am actually a bibliophile with an very strong collection of books. I study the classics of cultures and have had more than enough time to soak them in. I began this when I was about 14 and decided to live this sort of intellectual life after familiarizing myself with Plato. Story telling to me is very important. Books are a great part of my life.

Me? I don't worry about that stuff. I'm one of those Pagans who really doesn't work much with historical assemblages of gods or with historically-named deities. In part because of what you mention here, actually:

I would consider this a very honest attitude to what we have to work with. We do not have full manuscripts of ancient theology or ritualism so this is natural to me. I am very monotheistic in the sense that I have only an interest in one deity and no other. This could be because that Islam still leaves an impression on me yet at the same time I am an avid atheist and reject the possibility of any kind of god existing yet I am very fond of ritualism and the symbolism of deities.

I live in North America, so the gods indigenous to my lands - the ones I want to develop a relationship with - aren't those European Paganisms. That's not to say those gods don't have some presence here, but they are not my focus. I used to think that it was just not possible to identify and connect with gods from some distant land, kinda like what you say here. And there's definitely some truth to this. However, as I've gotten more experience and actually

bothered to reach out to and relate with those gods, I've had some unexpected results. It works better than you might think. Like cultivating any sort of relationship, it takes time and effort on your part. And, like any sort of relationship, sometimes it isn't meant to be and is not going to work for you. A beauty of these paths is that they're flexible enough to allow for that. You don't have to keep beating your head up against the wall because you can't develop a relationship with the "right" deity or some such rubbish.

Understood

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

seemingly heat-stroke induced ramblings of bronze-age illiterate goat-herders

LMAO

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Eh. I don't point this out to be pedantic or an ***, but for those unaware there are a handful(literally a handful, probably no more than a few hundred) unbroken pagan lineages in the more rural areas of the Baltic, Scandinavia and the like, areas where Christendom just decided it wasn't worth the effort.

I actually did not know that. Revise my statement to be relative to the people who claim it online, are from the suburbs, and make a big deal of it lol

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I mean valid in the sense that I don't find them capable of expressing modern ideals. As I said before, these pantheons are based on monarchic systems or superstitious thought that no longer expresses our frame of mind. So I would argue that it is a waste trying to dwell on them so much. I would say that some gods are completely valid, as you can tell I have been obsessed with Minerva/Athena for quite some time.

That's like saying the abacus is not valid today because we have a Casio fx-115ES PLUS Engineering Scientific Calculator.

While that's true when taking higher math courses, someone whose a math-pagan value the basics of using the abacus to do complicated math. They find ways Einstein thought of E=MC squared and, as scientist, use his train of logic as well as the greeks (which we still use) logic to come up with new math subjects.

While a modern protestant christian may put his or her family pictures on a thumb drive, modern pagans would probably keep the photo album and relish collecting the black and white pictures of their family members and their greats (like I do ) and find solace in learning who we were and not just who we are. It's combined. There is no time period. Everything is interconnected.

Another example (one more) is like telling someone who kept his La Marquise to get a brand new Mercedes because it rides faster and good for long distance travel. Yet, he may just live around the corner, everything is walking distance, and live alone with simple things but things of old.

Of course, a lot of things aren't valid as we don't need an acabus for counting now that we have a scientific calculator but as @Quintessence says, "what's valid?" Both tools are valid in counting. It depends on your preference and your goal (and what class you're in).

We're Ol' School trying to bring back the afros and high water pants.

Nothing wrong with that just, in my personal preference, a bit weird in some cases unless it's that person's style. But would love to go back to the 60s and meet my great grandparents.

 

[Sha'irullah]

That's like saying the abacus is not valid today because we have a Casio fx-115ES PLUS Engineering Scientific Calculator.

While that's true when taking higher math courses, someone whose a math-pagan value the basics of using the abacus to do complicated math. They find ways Einstein thought of E=MC squared and, as scientist, use his train of logic as well as the greeks (which we still use) logic to come up with new math subjects.

This is a great analogy but math is always valid despite what tool is used. Paganism is the subject not the tool, so I would not view it in this same way.

Also I will be completely honest int hat my attitude towards paganism is primarily emotional and not so much rational. Despite being such an avid proponent of philosophy and rational discourse I admit I am going the reverse and offering my emotional attitude to how I look at contemporary paganism.

While a modern protestant christian may put his or her family pictures on a thumb drive, modern pagans would probably keep the photo album and relish collecting the black and white pictures of their family members and their greats (like I do ) and find solace in learning who we were and not just who we are. It's combined. There is no time period. Everything is interconnected.

Another example (one more) is like telling someone who kept his La Marquise to get a brand new Mercedes because it rides faster and good for long distance travel. Yet, he may just live around the corner, everything is walking distance, and live alone with simple things but things of old.

Of course, a lot of things aren't valid as we don't need an acabus for counting now that we have a scientific calculator but as @Quintessence says, "what's valid?" Both tools are valid in counting. It depends on your preference and your goal (and what class you're in).

We're Ol' School trying to bring back the afros and high water pants.

Nothing wrong with that just, in my personal preference, a bit weird in some cases unless it's that person's style. But would love to go back to the 60s and meet my great grandparents.

I understand and relate to this then. I prefer physical books and only relish the leather bound ones or those with ore classical hardcovers. I absolutely despise the new forms of reading now a days.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is a great analogy but math is always valid despite what tool is used. Paganism is the subject not the tool, so I would not view it in this same way.

Also I will be completely honest int hat my attitude towards paganism is primarily emotional and not so much rational. Despite being such an avid proponent of philosophy and rational discourse I admit I am going the reverse and offering my emotional attitude to how I look at contemporary paganism.



I understand and relate to this then. I prefer physical books and only relish the leather bound ones or those with ore classical hardcovers. I absolutely despise the new forms of reading now a days.

Yeah. If you have read Fahrenheit 51, modern time are like the fire fighters and pagans is the main character, his passion, and his dilemma. (Don't want to spoil the book. Good one, though).

 

[Quintessence]

I mean valid in the sense that I don't find them capable of expressing modern ideals.

What is an example of something you would consider a "modern ideal" and what makes it "modern?" Furthermore, what makes the gods incapable of encompassing that ideal? I've yet to run into any ideal or idea or anything that can't be encompassed or understood through the gods, but maybe you have thought of one?

As I said before, these pantheons are based on monarchic systems or superstitious thought that no longer expresses our frame of mind.

They are??? That is not at all my assessment of them.

 

[Sha'irullah]

What is an example of something you would consider a "modern ideal" and what makes it "modern?"

A modern ideal I would consider now is science and more specifically physics. Physics evolved from animism, to polytheism (anthropomorphic nature deities), philosophy, and then to its modern form. At one point natural philosophy and speculation was the way we examined physical properties and forces until we began studying them up close and in nature. We have come a lot way from that, in no way shape or form would you seem a person trying to understand matter and forces through means of speculative thought like in philosophy. We replaced that entirely with mathematics to remove any form of doubt.

So naturally I could not see anybody going back to the earlier or even the earliest forms of physics.

Do not be mistaken though when I say physics evolved from these things because that alone would not devalue things like animism since animism was quite a bit more than trying o understand the physical and energetic properties of the world. It was also about honoring ancestry as well along with social cohesion.

Furthermore, what makes the gods incapable of encompassing that ideal? I've yet to run into any ideal or idea or anything that can't be encompassed or understood through the gods, but maybe you have thought of one?

Take for example the myths of Ishtar and Persephone which are so often interpretated in relation to harvest cycles. Witht he vast amounts of GMOs and our heavy urbanization barely anyone in such environments gives a single thought about food sources except environmentalists and vegans. We take it for granted.

A set of goddesses that embodies these cycles just could not be relevant in this day of age for many people.

They are??? That is not at all my assessment of them.

Maybe I am just being a drama queen but I just lack any encouragement to understand or appreciate paganism anymore. Maybe it is the fact I am a minimalist and favor monotheism in religious discourse. I admit I have become a less elaborate person as I have grown older.

I would really wish to go back to my theistic inclinations but philosophy and the works of Nietzsche and Camus have given me a very strong set of secular shades .

 

[Quintessence]

So naturally I could not see anybody going back to the earlier or even the earliest forms of physics.

I don't understand why you think contemporary Paganism would at all require that. Where did you get that impression? That is so strange to me. I haven't met or spoken with a Pagan who is a modern science denialist. The gods still govern (or are) that stuff as much as they did before.

The narrative you tell about the development of physics is also really strange to me. I don't understand it either.

A set of goddesses that embodies these cycles just could not be relevant in this day of age for many people.

Why do you think these deities are limited to this conceptualization you have of them? I'm not seeing it. Furthermore, these natural cycles are still relevant today. Very, very relevant. That many fail to understand that is symptomatic of moderner's disconnection with nature (aka, the gods). And of their ignorance.

Maybe I am just being a drama queen but I just lack any encouragement to understand or appreciate paganism anymore. Maybe it is the fact I am a minimalist and favor monotheism in religious discourse. I admit I have become a less elaborate person as I have grown older.

That's fine. But then I have to wonder, why bother asking the questions if you don't care?