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How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

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allright

Active Member
The Jewish Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin (43a)

" Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve " "he practiced sorcery and led Israel astray"

"as nothing was brought forward in his defense he was hanged on Passover eve"

THE CHARGE OF SORCERY WAS PREFORMING MIRACLES BY THE POWER OF SATAN. THE SAME THING THE GOSPELS SAY HE WAS ACCUSED OF.

SO BOTH HIS FOLLOWERS AND HIS ENEMIES AGREE ON ONE THING. THE MIRACLES WERE REAL
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
The Jewish Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin (43a)

" Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve " "he practiced sorcery and led Israel astray"

"as nothing was brought forward in his defense he was hanged on Passover eve"

THE CHARGE OF SORCERY WAS PREFORMING MIRACLES BY THE POWER OF SATAN. THE SAME THING THE GOSPELS SAY HE WAS ACCUSED OF.

SO BOTH HIS FOLLOWERS AND HIS ENEMIES AGREE ON ONE THING. THE MIRACLES WERE REAL
But you need to put that in historical context. There were lots of people in 1st century Palestine that went around preforming so called "miracles", lots of "healers" and "wonder workers". And we have no accounts of anyone denying that they actually did these things. Jesus was by no means unique in this respect.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I posted that to show why some people have doubts about that passage.

I mean, you can conjur up anything imaginable to place doubt on a claim. Even the non-theological claims regarding Jesus is somehow "debatable". It is a crying shame.

There's still no other corroboration or evidence for Christians being persecuted and killed under Nero, especially in the brutal and gory manner that Tacitus, if he did actually write, puts it. So, to me, the verdict is still out. But since Christians have fabricated so many other instances of persecution, it is probable that that is another example of that.

There is corroborating evidence, since Suetonius mentions it as well, even though he didn't claim that it was due to a fire, but he did mention a Christian persecution under Nero...and the fire of Rome is a historical fact...and this is all according to the wiki article on this subject, which is highly cited.

I have every reason to be skeptical of Christianity's claims about its early history what with all the known lies and distortions that have been passed off as truth by them. It really shouldn't be too much to ask for evidence of claims. I don't settle for hearsay written decades or centuries after the fact is alleged to happen. If someone wants to look down on me for questioning things, that's not my problem. I'm interested in truth only.

The entire genre of history could be full of lies and distortions for all you know. No one was there, were we?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I think your question can go a long way towards answering itself. Tacitus refers to an emperor's role in one of the most devastating calamities Rome had seen. Tacitus is also held up as an exemplar for the best of classical historians (unlike e.g., Herodotus, whom even Thucydides mocked, or Diogenes Laertius, who wrote half biographies and half mythologies). It should be obvious that he wouldn't event some story about this fire unless there were one. So what else do we have? Almost nothing. We have Suetonius and Pliny and precious else to even tell us that this fire happened. Later historians, such as Cassius, weren't born until a century or so later.

So the answer to your question is "because there were almost no historians in the first century whose works survive even in fragmentary form". In fact, there weren't many historians at all, particularly if you discount those who, like the gospel authors, were fond of incorporating myth and legend into the "historical" accounts.



He disparaged them. He refers to Christianity as a "deadly superstition" which originated in Judaea, "the nexus/origin of this evil". He shows nothing but contempt for Christians and the founder whence came their name: Christ (whom he says was executed by Pilate).

Also, why would Christians quote him? We have evidence in Christian writings that pagans believed Jesus to be the product of Roman rape, that his followers were tainted atheists who should be executed, and that the entire foundation of Christianity is based on an executed criminal. We have no until the 18th century that anybody thought Jesus never lived. From Celsus through Julian, there were plenty of pagans who viciously attacked Christians in writing and whose works survive in whole or in part. There number of Christian responses/rejoinders is vastly greater. Yet nowhere did any Christian try to defend Jesus' historicity because nobody was challenging it.

Legion, you'd make a great Christian apologist
icon14.gif
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Saint Frankenstein View Post
I have every reason to be skeptical of Christianity's claims about its early history what with all the known lies and distortions that have been passed off as truth by them. It really shouldn't be too much to ask for evidence of claims. I don't settle for hearsay written decades or centuries after the fact is alleged to happen. If someone wants to look down on me for questioning things, that's not my problem. I'm interested in truth only.=========
Originally Posted by Saint Frankenstein View Post
I have every reason to be skeptical of Christianity's claims about its early history what with all the known lies and distortions that have been passed off as truth by them. It really shouldn't be too much to ask for evidence of claims. I don't settle for hearsay written decades or centuries after the fact is alleged to happen. If someone wants to look down on me for questioning things, that's not my problem. I'm interested in truth only.
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
This is not true
Persecution suffered by Christians fixed
For today we live events
And events where people don't bother
Persecution of Christians in Iraq and especially in Mosul
After 200 years the events of forgotten history
If someone came like you said it did not occur in any campaigns of persecution of Christians
Here will require evidence
He says that Christian lie
This is just your attitude
Do you think that being not in the past
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
After this many pages of dialogue
No thing
Because the manuscript and one is not enough lathba any theory
Especially in the question of the historical Jesus
Any sane person says
Last date is established through the manuscripts that arrive to us
Therefore ancient manuscripts is the only way to prove the historical Jesus
There are ancient manuscripts in the libraries of the world proof of the historical Jesus
But the debate about one point in the book from the books of Greece
Does not deserve this attention
And you talk to a man named John Warwick Montgomery
Says lwanna made the New Testament manuscripts in doubt his art we must reject all ancient writings
Because there is no book statically bilogharavia like the new testament
This is the world of specialist
It is also absurd and very logical
This aspect can be the dialogue through the presentation of evidence of adjacent
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
If the author of this theme stems from certain theories lurk in his thinking and wants to prove it is another area
Because of all the historical books out there which one text says that Jesus had a brother
It is written in old
Do you rely on
The mind says you must search the text and credibility
This is important especially for researchers
This provided no word of the world awalmfkr John Warwick Montgomery
Not be able to prove his birth without a written document
Even in our time where scope for fraud
How does with people who lived two thousand years ago
And in a time and age when the evidence and writing ancient and primitive
We really build our faith to the full ratification of that historical documents
And also we believe that lying is not the ethics were news to us
Including personal Jesus
I live in a country
You turn the events to that country
When I speak today with people I feel they don't they believe what I say that what I say is my life
How do I prove my words to them
I feel so
Note that ahdathbsith
But with Jesus is different because Jesus was influential in history
And such an effect means paying attention to all aspects of his life and deeds
And his words
It is therefore not surprising that drops the specified text and written in a wrong way
Or even for a specific purpose
Can to appeal
Also
Permission of the Starter should work to compare the sources with other sources
Then the floor in building his theory
 

outhouse

Atheistically

His apostles did from Him. Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

This is a historical thread dealing with history.

Not apologetics.


Historical Jesus is not biblical jesus.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I mean, you can conjur up anything imaginable to place doubt on a claim. Even the non-theological claims regarding Jesus is somehow "debatable". It is a crying shame.

Of course it's all debatable. There's no hard evidence, either way. The "historical Jesus" is all based on guesses that depend on which aspect of the character from the New Testament the person wishes to emphasize.

There is corroborating evidence, since Suetonius mentions it as well, even though he didn't claim that it was due to a fire, but he did mention a Christian persecution under Nero...and the fire of Rome is a historical fact...and this is all according to the wiki article on this subject, which is highly cited.
The line from Suetonius does not say "Christo" in the earliest manuscripts:

The passage Divus Claudius 25.4 in Suetonius’ Life of the Twelve Caesars is about the emperor Claudius expelling from Rome the “perpetually tumultuous Jews”, “impulsore Chresto”. Since the 5th century, it has been interpreted as a reference to early Christianity or to the historical Jesus. The fifth century historian Orosius quotes Suetonius’ sentence as reading “inpulsore Christo”, and other readings of the latter word (like Cherestro) are evident in earlier scholarship. In the article, the medieval sources and relevant manuscripts containing the Suetonian sentence are presented and examined. The conclusion is that the reading Christo (or rather xpo) likely is of Christian origin, and that other readings (Cherestro, Chrestro, etc.) most probably are scribal errors. The most trustworthy reading, which most likely was Suetonius’ original spelling, is Chresto.
Inpulsore Cherestro? Suetonius' Divus Claudius 25.4 in Sources and Manuscripts - Liber Annuus - Volume 61, Volume 61 / 2011 - Edizioni Terra Santa
Chresto in the Suetonius Manuscript Tradition

So, no. Suetonius is not evidence of anything having to do with Christians. What we do know is that those references probably are referring to Jews getting into trouble with the Romans. During such an early time, Jews and Christians were pretty much the same. There wasn't a differentiation between the two until around 100 CE and neither was the term "Christian" in use during the mid-1st century.

The entire genre of history could be full of lies and distortions for all you know. No one was there, were we?
Indeed, it very well could be. But let's take it one thing at a time, shall we?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I'm not surprised that you don't know.

So you wigged from …
"That's a fable that Christians made …"​
to …
"… that passage may be doubted: ..."​
and then defend this nonsense with a lovely example of selection bias. So cute. :D

Why don't you follow the conversation instead of jumping in to make pointless snarky replies? Your boorish trolling isn't helpful, needed nor wanted.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I think your question can go a long way towards answering itself. Tacitus refers to an emperor's role in one of the most devastating calamities Rome had seen. Tacitus is also held up as an exemplar for the best of classical historians (unlike e.g., Herodotus, whom even Thucydides mocked, or Diogenes Laertius, who wrote half biographies and half mythologies). It should be obvious that he wouldn't event some story about this fire unless there were one. So what else do we have? Almost nothing. We have Suetonius and Pliny and precious else to even tell us that this fire happened. Later historians, such as Cassius, weren't born until a century or so later.

So the answer to your question is "because there were almost no historians in the first century whose works survive even in fragmentary form". In fact, there weren't many historians at all, particularly if you discount those who, like the gospel authors, were fond of incorporating myth and legend into the "historical" accounts.



He disparaged them. He refers to Christianity as a "deadly superstition" which originated in Judaea, "the nexus/origin of this evil". He shows nothing but contempt for Christians and the founder whence came their name: Christ (whom he says was executed by Pilate).

Also, why would Christians quote him? We have evidence in Christian writings that pagans believed Jesus to be the product of Roman rape, that his followers were tainted atheists who should be executed, and that the entire foundation of Christianity is based on an executed criminal. We have no until the 18th century that anybody thought Jesus never lived. From Celsus through Julian, there were plenty of pagans who viciously attacked Christians in writing and whose works survive in whole or in part. There number of Christian responses/rejoinders is vastly greater. Yet nowhere did any Christian try to defend Jesus' historicity because nobody was challenging it.

Legion, provide evidence that Christians were even recognized as a distinct group apart from Jews during the mid-1st century or that "Christian" was even a widely used term back then.

Tacitus, Roman Politician and Historian, (c. 56-120 CE)

Tacitus.jpg
Turning next to another stalwart in the anemic apologist arsenal, Tacitus, sufficient reason is uncovered to doubt this Roman author's value in proving an "historical" Jesus. In his Annals, supposedly written around 107 CE, Tacitus purportedly related that the Emperor Nero (37-68) blamed the burning of Rome during his reign on "those people who were abhorred for their crimes and commonly called Christians." Since the fire evidently broke out in the poor quarter where fanatic, agitating Messianic Jews allegedly jumped for joy, thinking the conflagration represented the eschatological development that would bring about the Messianic reign, it would not be unreasonable for authorities to blame the fire on them. However, it is clear that these Messianic Jews were not (yet) called "Christiani." In support of this contention, Nero's famed minister, Seneca (5?-65), whose writings evidently provided much fuel for the incipient Christian ideology, has not a word about these "most-hated" sectarians.


...the Tacitean passage next states that these fire-setting agitators were followers of "Christus" (Christos), who, in the reign of Tiberius, "was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate." The passage also recounts that the Christians, who constituted a "vast multitude at Rome," were then sought after and executed in ghastly manners, including by crucifixion. However, the date that a "vast multitude" of Christians was discovered and executed would be around 64 CE, and it is evident that there was no "vast multitude" of Christians at Rome by this time, as there were not even a multitude of them in Judea. Oddly, this brief mention of Christians is all there is in the voluminous works of Tacitus regarding this extraordinary movement, which allegedly possessed such power as to be able to burn Rome. Also, the Neronian persecution of Christians is unrecorded by any other historian of the day and supposedly took place at the very time when Paul was purportedly freely preaching at Rome (Acts 28:30-31), facts that cast strong doubt on whether or not it actually happened. Drews concludes that the Neronian persecution is likely "nothing but the product of a Christian's imagination in the fifth century." Eusebius, in discussing this persecution, does not avail himself of the Tacitean passage, which he surely would have done had it existed at the time. Eusebius's discussion is very short, indicating he was lacking source material; the passage in Tacitus would have provided him a very valuable resource.


Even conservative writers such as James Still have problems with the authenticity of the Tacitus passage: For one, Tacitus was an imperial writer, and no imperial document would ever refer to Jesus as "Christ." Also, Pilate was not a "procurator" but a prefect, which Tacitus would have known. Nevertheless, not willing to throw out the entire passage, some researchers have concluded that Tacitus "was merely repeating a story told to him by contemporary Christians."


Based on these and other facts, several scholars have argued that, even if the Annals themselves were genuine, the passage regarding Jesus was spurious. One of these authorities was Rev. Taylor, who suspected the passage to be a forgery because it too is not quoted by any of the Christian fathers, including Tertullian, who read and quoted Tacitus extensively. Nor did Clement of Alexandria notice this passage in any of Tacitus's works, even though one of this Church father's main missions was to scour the works of Pagan writers in order to find validity for Christianity. As noted, the Church historian Eusebius, who likely forged the Testimonium Flavianum, does not relate this Tacitus passage in his abundant writings. Indeed, no mention is made of this passage in any known text prior to the 15th century.


The tone and style of the passage are unlike the writing of Tacitus, and the text "bears a character of exaggeration, and trenches on the laws of rational probability, which the writings of Tacitus are rarely found to do." Taylor further remarks upon the absence in any of Tacitus's other writings of "the least allusion to Christ or Christians." In his well-known Histories, for example, Tacitus never refers to Christ, Christianity or Christians. Furthermore, even the Annals themselves have come under suspicion, as they themselves had never been mentioned by any ancient author....


In any event, even if the Annals were genuine, the pertinent passage itself could easily be an interpolation, based on the abundant precedents and on the fact that the only manuscript was in the possession of one person, de Spire. In reality, "none of the works of Tacitus have come down to us without interpolations."


Regarding Christian desperation for evidence of the existence of Christ, Dupuis comments that true believers are "reduced to look, nearly a hundred years after, for a passage in Tacitus" that does not even provide information other than "the etymology of the word Christian," or they are compelled "to interpolate, by pious fraud, a passage in Josephus." Neither passage, Dupuis concludes, is sufficient to establish the existence of such a remarkable legislator and philosopher, much less a "notorious impostor."


It is evident that Tacitus's remark is nothing more than what is said in the Apostle's Creed—to have the authenticity of the mighty Christian religion rest upon this Pagan author's scanty and likely forged comment is preposterous. Even if the passage in Tacitus were genuine, it would be too late and is not from an eyewitness, such that it is valueless in establishing an "historical" Jesus, representing merely a recital of decades-old Christian tradition.
Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Stop bringing up Elvis. That's a false equivalence. I know what you're trying to do by dumping him in there, and it's not cute nor is it working.

I hope you're not one of them fundy religionists who tried to get rock n' roll banned when it first hit the scene in the 1950's, right Elv?
"Uh-huh"..
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Legion, provide evidence that Christians were even recognized as a distinct group apart from Jews during the mid-1st century or that "Christian" was even a widely used term back then.

Arguments that you cannot trump ARE evidence, while agenda-driven blogger trash that speaks its contrary opinions into truth are NOT. :D
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Arguments that you cannot trump ARE evidence, while agenda-driven blogger trash that speaks its contrary opinions into truth are NOT. :D

Prophet, provide evidence for what I asked or don't bother with me. I'm sick of the immature trolling and insults when I'm trying to have a serious discussion and get to the truth of the matter. Disagreeing on this matter is not like disagreeing on whether the Earth revolves around the Sun or not, so don't treat me as if I'm a moron for questioning mainstream academia on this. This is not physics! I'm honestly asking questions and presenting the "other side" of the argument for the sake of the debate. I don't agree with everything DM Murdock says, but that doesn't mean she raises no good points at all. It's food for thought. These questions are not being answered. People are just parroting the official line, thinking that it's a satisfactory answer when it doesn't answer the question I've posed or provide evidence of anything. All I'm seeing is "best guesses" based on a tiny amount of writings that came into existence long after the alleged fact -and these writings themselves are in doubt - but no actual historical evidence.
 
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