How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[Trailblazer]

So what? You are ignoring points that you already acknowledged. God knew ahead of time what every person would be like. He knew ahead of time exactly what actions that they would take. This was already acknowledged. If God had wanted to change anything he could have. You acknowledged this too. And "free will" is not an excuse.

Excuse for what? For not not changing things to be how you think they should be?

It cannot exist with a God that is omniscient and omnipotent. For free will to exist you have to either limit Gods omnipotence, which would mean that he is not omnipotent. Or limit his omniscience, which would not mean that he was not omniscient, and probably both.

Yet you have not explained why. You are making assertions with no argument to back them up.

This does not "refute God". It only refutes an omnipotent omniscient God.

No, it does not refute an omnipotent omniscient God.

 

[Orbit]

That is not the logical extension of my thought. I believe we have free will to make moral choices and limited free will to make other choices.
The fact that God has fore-knowledge so He knows how it will turn out does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150​

I guess I'm not worried about causality so much as I am questioning the point of the whole thing. If God knows what I will do, what is the point of having me do it?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Can I ask a question here? If God knows what you will choose, what is the point of letting you "choose" it? Doesn't that suggest predestination?

Yes, and that's the argument against divine omniscience and human free will coexisting. What is called a choice here would not be a choice in the sense that the "chooser" could have chosen otherwise. So, one driver passes through an intersection and the next one turns right there. If their course of action was known in advance, neither had a choice, yet this is called making a freely willed choice anyway.

When an individual makes a choice they are transferred into the timeline where the predetermined consequences occur.

Your refutation?

Your argument? This is a bare, unargued claim, otherwise known as opinion or speculation, which needs no refutation per Hitchens' Razor. You seem to think this statement challenges the idea that free will and omniscience are incompatible.

You do not seem to understand that some arguments are so weak that they can be refuted with a "So what?"

Agreed, although I don't call that an argument. He gets a "so what" because the comment is irrelevant to the matter, but calling it an argument is generous of you.

There is no causal relationship between what God knows and what anyone chooses.

Disagree, but even if we concede the point, this a great example of "so what." Even if true, it's irrelevant to the claim that divine omniscience and human free will cannot coexist, since it's not necessary for the omniscient one to be the cause of anything for it to remain true that if it could only turn out as the omniscient one knew it would, there was no free choice involved.

When you say "there was nothing there to refute" instead of trying to refute what he said that is deflection.
He said something, he did not say nothing. You cannot refute what he said so instead you deflect.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." - Hitchens

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot have it both ways. Free will cannot exist with an omnipotent omniscient God.

You are doing what you did last week. You are making assertions with no argument to back them up.
This is not a discussion, it is a lecture.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Who's sarge?
Never mind, I figured it out.

Sarge?

I am not sure what scriptures you are referring to but I do not believe that God selects individuals for salvation. I believe that God allows people to freely choose.

I'm referring to these verses on predestination: "What does the Bible say about Predestination?" And here is another reference: "What is predestination?"

 

[ppp]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

True

Yes.

Interesting. How about if no gods existed at all? Would everything would be exactly as it is now?

 

[Trailblazer]

You already acknowledge that there is such a relationship. You had no problem when it was Presidents. But you had a big problem we it involved moral issues.

No, I never said there is a causal relationship between what God knows we will choose to do and what we will choose to do.

 

[ppp]

Oh! So you are just purposely trying to stir people up. Got it. With 56 pages of replies I would say you're doing a good job lol.

I just gave people more credit than I should have. Wouldn't be the first time. Won't be the last.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps your basic assumptions are wrong. Have you considered that?

Have you considered that your basic assumptions may be wrong?

 

[ppp]

I don't know what you mean by functional difference.

No difference in practical result. If you stab me in the eye, it doesn't matter in any practical way whether you did it because you freely chose to, or did it because you are a handpuppet. The real effects in the real world are indistinguishable.

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess I'm not worried about causality so much as I am questioning the point of the whole thing. If God knows what I will do, what is the point of having me do it?

Why would it matter if God knows what you will do? You are not doing anything for God's benefit, it is all for your own benefit.

 

[blü 2]

Which books are you pulling those from? None of that sounds like B'Reisheet. That's *maybe* where you'd find something about the God of Abraham. You would call it Genesis.

Invasive war, massacres of surrendered populations, religious intolerance ─
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (Repeated at 20:16)

Mass rape, massacres of surrendered populations ─
Numbers 31
9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Mid’ian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. ... 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army ... who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these caused the people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe’or, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Human sacrifice
Genesis 22:2-14 (called off)
Exodus 22:29-30 (later modified)
Leviticus 27:28-29
Numbers 31:25-30
Numbers 31:40-41
Joshua 6:21 Also, massacres of surrendered populations
Judges 11:30-39
2 Samuel 21
Jonah 1 (called off)

Treating women as property
Slavery as normal
Passim

 

[Trailblazer]

Disagree, but even if we concede the point, this a great example of "so what." Even if true, it's irrelevant to the claim that divine omniscience and human free will cannot coexist, since it's not necessary for the omniscient one to be the cause of anything for it to remain true that if it could only turn out as the omniscient one knew it would, there was no free choice involved.

It will turn out as the omniscient God knew it would for one reason and one reason alone. The omniscient God has always known how it would turn out since He is all-knowing. As such, the omniscient God has always known what 'free will' choices we would make.

What the omniscient God knows has absolutely no bearing upon what we choose to do. Why would God's knowledge affect our choices?
There is no causal relationship between what God knows and what we choose.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? It is really very simple.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting. How about if no gods existed at all? Would everything would be exactly as it is now?

No.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Excuse for what? For not not changing things to be how you think they should be?

No, you already acknowledged these points. It has nothing to do with "how it should be". You are apparently undergoing cognitive dissonance.

Yet you have not explained why. You are making assertions with no argument to back them up.

No, they were explained. Be clear about what you do not understand and I will try to explain again. But the odds are that you will not let yourself understand.

No, it does not refute an omnipotent omniscient God.

It does. You need a stronger response than denial. You re not reasoning logically and consistently. You are reasoning emotionally.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Have you considered that your basic assumptions may be wrong?

What assumptions? I made none that you did not agree to. It is time for you to be honest with yourself if you can.

 

[ppp]

No.

Why not?

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I never said there is a causal relationship between what God knows we will choose to do and what we will choose to do.

You did. You can deny it now, but you did. Sorry it is too late. You cannot refute rational thought with emotional reasoning.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you stab me in the eye, it doesn't matter in any practical way whether you did it because you freely chose to, or did it because you are a handpuppet.

It matters in a court of law.

The real effects in the real world are indistinguishable.

So what? Causes need to be considered in order for justice to exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not?

Because God created things the way they are now.