How can a God exist?

[Edwardsjm]

Why cannot modern medicine be a miracle? What about all those that have cancer and live? My child just learned how to drive without having a wreck. That's not a miracle???

You negate the good things that happen, while using the bad stuff as proof of your position. Why not have a more positive outlook? That's where the miracles occur.

Could you create the Grand Canyon?

You have eyes, but you do not see.

medicine is not a miracle, it was on the earth already and scientists found it. your kid that drives, congrats, but that is no miracle either. Can I make a grand canyon, no of course not, what does that prove?

 

[Edwardsjm]

You're a human, full of judgment. (See the parts in red). God, though, is a God of love.
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Jesus in Luke 6:27-28).
As Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof observed, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth just leaves the world blind and toothless."

God does not choose wrath and judgment. "My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused. I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man -- the Holy one among you. I will not come in wrath." (Hosea 11:8-9)

And from Psalm 100: "For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his faithfulness endures from age to age."

God will have compassion upon whom God will have compassion.

that guy (the pedo) deserves no love, he does not deserve to be treated well. why pray for someone like him? it should be game over for him, bye bye

would you forgive someone that killed your family? would you pray for that person?

"Gee God this guy killed my loved ones but could you find it in your heart to forgive him if he asks?"

no way, he should be ended, but he is still alive, representing himself in court, admitting to his crimes

 

[Edwardsjm]

On second thought, maybe this isn't about the problem of evil. :sarcastic

How would you propose arriving at the judgments on all those you desire to kill, edward?

Are you okay with our current jury system for deciding that?

the justice system is horrible, Manson is still alive in prison, many killers and rapists are rotting away in jail, shoot them, very simple, or God could kill them humanely, whatever. they are a waste of life

 

[doppelganger]

the justice system is horrible, Manson is still alive in prison, many killers and rapists are rotting away in jail, shoot them, very simple, or God could kill them humanely, whatever. they are a waste of life

Okay. How would you propose deciding who did what so that you can kill them?

 

[sojourner]

yes, Hell is where he would belong, if such place exists. Where do you draw the line? 1 person, 5 people, 20 people? If someone rapes 3 women and kills 10 children and then repents, he has a clean slate? rediculous

a child lying to his Mother about a report card commits a sin, a man who kills or rapes someone commits a sin, but that mans sin is much more serious, and is on a totally different level, all sins are not equal. the child will be fine, the killer should die

And yet, God chooses to be merciful. Humanity's way is vengeance. God's way is mercy.
You want a miracle? There it is!

 

[doppelganger]

Also, edwardsjm, what about crimes of the less directly violent sort? When a corporate executive decides to cut back on training costs at his beef processing plant just so he'll look better to his board of directors and get a larger profit share, but then someone loses an arm at the plant, what would you do about the person who made that decision?

 

[sojourner]

who? how did we blow it? so basically every flood was our fault? Was God trying to prove a point then? that makes no sense

The point here is not that the flood was anyone's fault. The point is not that God should have prevented the flood. The point is not that we could have prevented it. The point is that we could (and should) have acted more proactively, instead of reactively.

 

[sojourner]

Murder, rape, or intent to cause death or serious physical injury malliciously or with premeditation. For that, you should die, no forgiveness, no repenting, dont pass go, do not collect 200$. But if God can do anything, he should be able to stop people doing these things before they do them.

God sees a pedophile walking out of his house, this creep is on his way to an autistic center with the intent of raping a child. BAM, strike him down, he's done game over. Because our justice system will either give him 7 years in prison where he will get out and possibly do this again or he will never be caught and have the freedom to rape another child the next day. God knows all, strike him down, problem solved.

If God is the way you create God to be in your mind, no wonder you don't believe! You went to Christian school? Didn't you learn anything about love, mercy, forbearance and compassion?

 

[sojourner]

is The Tortoise and the Hare in the bible? Everyone who attends some sort of christain school is raised to believe that the bible is true, every word all the way to "Amen" I mean, it's the Bible

No, obviously it's not. But the story of Noah and the Flood is in the Bible. It's the same sort of story that speaks truth.

You're mistaken. Not everyone who attends Christian school is raised with a militant, literalistic viewpoint of the Bible. Your experience is not universal.

 

[sojourner]

I think we should take a minute to consider the wise words of Woody Allen on this subject.





"The Tortoise and the Hare" is not true. It doesn't make any claims, unless you believe that "slow and steady wins the race" is a claim rather than a piece of advice. If someone reads that parable while believing that it's always more efficient to rush things then they aren't going to be convinved by it. If however, like most people, the reader already believes that sometimes it is more efficient to do things slower, then the parable simply reminds them of this.
It may be that the Bible is a good reminder of God's nature to those who already believe that its description of the nature of God is correct, but it can't show that nature to others. In order to be a representation of God's nature that reveals this nature to those who read it, it needs to make claims about God's nature, and therefore needs to convince people.

It is true for some. Does the selective nature make it any less true?

That's the purpose of the Bible. The Bible was written by believers for believers.

Why does the Bible have to convince everyone who reads it? It is revelatory to me (as well as to many, many others). Just because a non-believer is not convinced does not mean that the Bible is not revelatory.

 

[Æsahættr]

the justice system is horrible, Manson is still alive in prison, many killers and rapists are rotting away in jail, shoot them, very simple, or God could kill them humanely, whatever. they are a waste of life

Just because you have a concept of justice that demands life for life, it doesn't mean that a supreme being would have to share it.

 

[Edwardsjm]

Okay. How would you propose deciding who did what so that you can kill them?

God could do that, he is all seeing and all knowing after all. But if it was up to me, murder, rape, any premeditaded or mallicious intent to cause serious physical injury. game over

 

[Æsahættr]

It is true for some. Does the selective nature make it any less true?

A statement can only be true for some and not true for others if it is describing something about those people. While parts of the Bible may be doing that, a lot of it isn't. Either God exists or He doesn't. If He does, then either He sent a son to Earth or He didn't. Either all unbelievers go to Hell or some do not. These sort of things cannot have a truth that only applies to some people.

Why does the Bible have to convince everyone who reads it? It is revelatory to me (as well as to many, many others). Just because a non-believer is not convinced does not mean that the Bible is not revelatory.

But when you first read it, was it revealing things to you that you previously held to be true?

 

[Edwardsjm]

And yet, God chooses to be merciful. Humanity's way is vengeance. God's way is mercy.
You want a miracle? There it is!

how.....is that a miracle? so we should be merciful towards rapists and killers? the justice system is merciful enough already

So God has mercy on the man who kills 20 people? why? where is the reasoning behind that?

 

[sojourner]

that guy (the pedo) deserves no love, he does not deserve to be treated well. why pray for someone like him? it should be game over for him, bye bye

would you forgive someone that killed your family? would you pray for that person?

"Gee God this guy killed my loved ones but could you find it in your heart to forgive him if he asks?"

no way, he should be ended, but he is still alive, representing himself in court, admitting to his crimes

This is the same sort of mind set that causes wars that have killed thousands of innocent people. You would have us return hate for hate. It's gotta stop somewhere! In your scenario, those with the biggest fists and the most guns wins -- not necessarily the ones who "deserve" to "win."

In a vengeful dynamic, we find ourselves in an endless cycle of tit-for-tat, stuck in pettiness. In this world, there is no hope. Again, if that's how you think God should operate, no wonder you don't believe.

You have just accurately stated the nature of God's grace. It is not deserved. We do not deserve to be loved, or to be granted reprieve. yet, God chooses to save us. We can now heave a big sigh of relief that, no matter what humanity does to crap on itself, we have hope in God, through Christ.

 

[sojourner]

medicine is not a miracle, it was on the earth already and scientists found it. your kid that drives, congrats, but that is no miracle either. Can I make a grand canyon, no of course not, what does that prove?

It's not? M'kay...Why not??

 

[Edwardsjm]

Also, edwardsjm, what about crimes of the less directly violent sort? When a corporate executive decides to cut back on training costs at his beef processing plant just so he'll look better to his board of directors and get a larger profit share, but then someone loses an arm at the plant, what would you do about the person who made that decision?

that is what is called, an accident. not premeditated or mallicious at all. killing a human being with direct intent of killing that person should result in no mercy, no forgiveness

anyone who works with machinery that could "de-limb" you, well they should know what they are doing, or get a different job.

 

[Edwardsjm]

If God is the way you create God to be in your mind, no wonder you don't believe! You went to Christian school? Didn't you learn anything about love, mercy, forbearance and compassion?

why should rapists and murderers receive love, mercy, forbearance and compassion?

 

[Sunstone]

There's still a cross-over in matters where a definite claim is being made. If a religion says miracle X happened, then that's a definite true or false claim. Whether that claim encourages sprituality may affect its usefulness and value, but not its truth.

You seem to be assuming that the word "truth" has only one meaning. Let's look at that assumption in the simplest possible way: Just how many words in the English language have only one meaning compared to how many words have multiple meanings? Got a dictionary handy?

The word "truth" usually means different things depending on whether it's used in a religious context or, say, a scientific context. For one thing, that's probably why it's often capitalized when used in a religious context. Although, I grant that literalists seem naiviely innocent of any ability to distinguish between one meaning of truth and another.

I am not so much disagreeing with your point as putting a qualification on it.

 

[doppelganger]

God could do that, he is all seeing and all knowing after all. But if it was up to me, murder, rape, any premeditaded or mallicious intent to cause serious physical injury. game over

That doesn't answer the question. Let me try to rephrase it to be more clear. How would you decide whether a particular individual had committed "premeditated rape" so you could then kill him or her?