How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

I suppose they do, but bear in mind that only Baha'is have the Word that came directly from an infallible Manifestation of God... the Christians and Jews have to rely upon the Bible and the Torah, so they need their leaders to explain what those are supposed to mean....

I think that Muslims probably rely more upon the Qur'an than they do on their leaders, but that is just my impression.

Yes. Christians have the Word of God as for Muslims however they have no interpreter for things like prophecies and mystical passages.

There are verses that are clear such as morals, ethics and the golden rule but the opening and unsealing of their Books was always meant to be done by their Promised One.

Revelation 5.5

No man on earth or in heaven could be found to unseal the Books except the Lion of Judah, a term for the Promised Messiah.

And in the Quran 7:53

On the Day (of Judgment) when its interpretations will be revealed, those who had ignored its guidance will confess, saying, "The Messengers of our Lord had certainly come to us with the Truth.

So apart from the simple things like the Beautitudes and such the full meaning of the prophecies was only going to be made clear when the Promised One arose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. Christians have the Word of God as for Muslims however they have no interpreter for things like prophecies and mystical passages.

There are verses that are clear such as morals, ethics and the golden rule but the opening and unsealing of their Books was always meant to be done by their Promised One.

Revelation 5.5

No man on earth or in heaven could be found to unseal the Books except the Lion of Judah, a term for the Promised Messiah.

And in the Quran 7:53

On the Day (of Judgment) when its interpretations will be revealed, those who had ignored its guidance will confess, saying, "The Messengers of our Lord had certainly come to us with the Truth.

So apart from the simple things like the Beautitudes and such the full meaning of the prophecies was only going to be made clear when the Promised One arose.

Thanks. Didn't Daniel 12 refer to the unsealing of the entire Bible? A Christian I know kept saying it only refers to unsealing the Book of Daniel, and I could not find any online Christian commentaries on that. Here is one of my many different write-ups that I post; correct me if I am wrong.

Daniel Chapter 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The early Church fathers simply interpreted the Bible the way they did because they could not understand it. The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Baha’is believe that the 2,300 years was up in 1844 and the book was unsealed. There is a starting point from which the waiting in Dan 12:12 began, so if one knows how to do the math, the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days comes out to the exact year the Bab came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah. This and the math is explained by Abdu’l-Baha in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

Does that mean that we can “know” what every verse in the Bible means? Certainly not... It means that we can know what we NEED to know, particularly about the Return of Christ and we know the essence, or essential elements of what His Manifestations intended to convey in Their Holy Books.... All the other details are not important to know...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We believe that God is one like the Bible says except He is not composed, comprised or divided into or from 3 persons.

God exists independently of both the Holy Spirit and the Manifestations as He created both of them. They appear to be as God just as the sun ‘appears’ to be in a mirror facing it but if we break the mirrors, the sun still exists and shines.

So we believe that God does not require us or the Holy Spirit or Jesus to exist. He exists independently of all creation and beings.

We believe His Essence is even unknown to the Manifestations. All we know is God exists and what the Manifestations have told us about God’s attributes. Otherwise we know nothing.

Thank You. Christianity and scripture has a different take on relationships and god. Scripture has jesus and god as equals in authority. So, as high prophet (I think Acts) he speaks for god. The general consensus among all christians is only a divine perfect person can speak for god. Whether they call jesus god is personal preference. Its not divided just expressions are different with each "person" based on their roles not tbeir nature (creator, human, spirit).

Its like if I had a daughter, my love (abstract emotion), daughter, and I are different. Love is an emotion. My daughter is not a mother. Im not my daughter. So there is no division.

However, because we are One United family, my daughter is not seperate than me and our love we have for each other. We are one unit; unity. No one else.

So, when my daughter refers to me, she doesnt know what I think but because she is my daughter, she has an already inherited reason and permission to speak on my behalf. What I tell her, I give her permission to tell others.

My relationship with my daughter via love is the same concept as the trinity. Its a union with Three people (tri) not two (duality) nor four.

Not divided. They are seperate just their relationship to christians and scripture are christians use IS and scripture uses Image.

Its all in words and concepts. Not wrong just bias over demominations makes people misinterpret scripture when its there blunt. Maybe the spirituality makes one bias compared to being objective. Dont know. Interesting topic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Carlita

I do not believe that the Son was the creator of the heavens and the earth because it makes no logical sense. Jesus was a man with Godlike qualities who manifested the attributes of God. No man can create the heavens and the earth.

It is all in how we think about it. I see the sun in the sky and it stays in the sky. The rays come down from the sky so they are from the sun but they have left the sun after they came down from the sun.

God is one and alone. Nobody is like God. Manifestations of God manifest God but they are not God. There is a difference between the Manifestations and the Creator according to Baha’i beliefs. Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of anyone’s body because I consider that irrational and it is not a Baha’i belief. Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care.

Jesus did not exist when the Torah was written. Christians wrote Jesus into the Old Testament because they believe He is the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for, but He isn’t. Christians are free to believe whatever they want to, I don’t care.

Nobody owns any scriptures. They came from God. Reinterpreting implies that someone had the correct interpretation but who is to say who has the correct interpretation.

I do not know why we are still talking about scriptures that are thousands of years old. It is time to move on to the new age, Imo.

I never heard of any christian calling jesus the creator. That would mean there'd be no creator. They believe he has the same authority with the creator and a perfect relationship with the creator that in prophet faiths one can only get through that said prophet or manifestation.

As for the holy spirit, its just the spirit of god working as the love, mercy, compassion of god.

Bahai doesnt have that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita, I see your confusion, it has been one of the most debated topics in Christianity, as in the end it is a mystery, they can not explain how the Trinity works.

Now if you want to see the contradictions as to what Christians think the Trinity means, then I did the search for you on CAF Forums. Check out the replies in this threads that I participated on CAF

Understanding the Trinity

Anytime I and any other Baha'i discussed the Mirror analogy of the Trinity on CAF, we are told that was a wrong understanding. Such as this comment by IgnatianPhilo to the same quote you do not see a difference with; "That's not trinity. That's a different sort of doctrine. In fact that definition is arrianism, not trinity."

Look for posts By Arthra - Then look at the replies using link on bottom left to all comments,
Also look for posts by me, Tony BS - Ditto
Look for posts by Servant19 - Ditto
There were a few Baha'is that came onto this Forum, David was there for a while as well....we got the size 12

They stopped posts when they reached 1000 posts. Many made the 1000 posts as well.

Regards Tony

If you define the trinity from a scriptural view it is easy to understand. If you depend on christians (especially a chrisian forum) and not part of the body of christ, and define it by hearsay, your definitions, like christians, will be all over the place.

If you want to use christian definitions, I cant help you with that. There are too many.

If you want to tall about scripture definition of the trinity, I can so that. But you got to see it there first.

Not hearsay, what you experience (if you did?) Not what you read.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you want to talk about scripture definition of the trinity, I can so that. But you got to see it there first.

Muhammad cleared it up for us in the mid 600's with this passage;

"People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

That says it in a nutshell.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Muhammad cleared it up for us in the mid 600's with this passage;

"People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

That says it in a nutshell.

Regards Tony

Unless you give me a definition of the trinity, this quote is not referring to the christian trinity but what it "thinks" the trinity is. Christians think pagans are worshiping the devil; they are wrong. They think LGBTQ sin because we identify as such; they are wrong. Muslims think christians divide the god up; they are wrong. Bahai think The Buddha and krisha point to the god of abraham; they are wrong.

If you cant see it in scripture, how can you prove it wrong?

I go by scripture. You do not.

It has to be there to make an arguement against it. You say its not (going by hearsay ) I say it is (going by scripture).

What trinity are you and Muslims (quote) referring to since god is not divided in christianity nor mentioned as divided in scripture?​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I go by scripture. You do not....

.....What trinity are you and Muslims (quote) referring to

We are not talking about your view of the Trinity which is a mix of many ideas. Your view is not a mainstream Christianity view.

I accept the scriptures as they are, with the explanations given by Gods Messengers.

I am not offering you my ideas of scriptures, I give you Gods Words of explanation and that is the God that also gave the Biblical Scriptures.

I can explain the subject if the Trinity no more than what has already been posted.

As you do not beleive in God, or His Messengers, you rate their teachings on the same level as your own ideas. Thus you may have to consider if your ideas of scripture may be flawed in doing this.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We are not talking about your view of the Trinity which is a mix of many ideas. Your view is not a mainstream Christianity view.

I accept the scriptures as they are, with the explanations given by Gods Messengers.

I am not offering you my ideas of scriptures, I give you Gods Words of explanation and that is the God that also gave the Biblical Scriptures.

I can explain the subject if the Trinity no more than what has already been posted.

As you do not beleive in God, or His Messengers, you rate your opinions on the same level as your own ideas. Thus you may have to consider if your ideas of scripture may be flawed in doing this.

Regards Tony

Thanks a lot, Tony.

You have yet to explain your view of the trinity.

It is not my view. My view of the trinity is: it not true and does not exist.

Scripture says it does.

If you do not understand what a relationship is, of course you go by mainstream view. Which I actually dont know since Roman Catholics teach the father is not jesus.

That and I know jesus exist. Since jesus has a relationship with god (trinity), I only know god Through jesus.

Repeating this again.

If I need to believe in your god to converse, then thats a problem

especially with unity among diversity.

If you dont want to insult, what is scripture's definition between the relationship between three "people" father, son, and holy spirit?

Relationship. Trinity is a relationship. Unity means one. Christians use trinity. Scripture has the trinity. None has unity.

Oh: If god was not one you would have three gods. Christianity doesnt teach polytheism. Its not hindu.

I do not need to believe Muslim view of the trinity to talk with anyone about it. Thats silly. Especially if you believe in unity among diversity.

You Dont. This post is proof. Thanks

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You have yet to explain your view of the trinity.

It started this conversation;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

I also told you my view comes from God's Word to which that quote is in that category.

It is not my view. My view of the trinity is: it not true and does not exist.

Thus you and I and all Baha'i do not beleive in a Doctrine called a 'Trinity'.

Especially if you believe in unity among diversity. You Dont. This post is proof. Thanks

How does a difference of opinion have anything to do with our Unity in our Diversity?

You are welcome for a coffee, tea, milo, bonox, biscuit, cake, pavlova, cheesecake anytime.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

Im speaking from a roman catholic definition not protestant. Not mine (no trinity) and not yours. Only bible scripture.

Roman catholics believe father, son, "and" holy spirit.

Father

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

Son
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

-not to himself, to his father

Holy spirit

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

God: divinity
Lord: Ruler/king/title of authority

They have a relationship with each other


6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
1 Corrinthians 8:6
Colossians 2:9

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Ephesians 4:4-6

JW

Then, too, Jesus is called “the Word.” (John 1:14) This tells us that he spoke for God, no doubt delivering messages and instructions to the Father’s other sons, both spirit and human.



JW doesnt believe in the trinity either. They do believe in scripture. Trinity, by definition, is the relationship between three things as one. Its like unified and duality.

As such, in scripture it does not use the wors trinity but describes it as father,son, and holy spirit in relationship to each other. That is the whole NT. Its not the Muslim god. They dont believe you have to go "through" christ (meaning two people are involved not one) to get to god. No salvation through christ.

So, you are not referring to the christian god.

Protestants believe in the trinity but define it more explictly than roman catholics. Instead, they use the term IS because they see no difference between father and son. To them the son is no different than the father. The son is a image of, mirror, manifestation of god. Not divided.

Think about it in english

Trinity -three together

Duality -two together

Unity -all are one

jesus, father, holy spirit are a trinity.

If they were one person they would be unified.

Scripture does not teach that
Protestants dont teach it
catholics dont teach that.

They teach the trinity not unity

Its not bahai
its not muslim

It is christian

If you want to tall about the trinity, you MUST go by christian and scripture definition. Bahai and Muslim does not explain christian (scripture) views.

Its like talking about a country you dont claim citizenship of.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It started this conversation;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

I also told you my view comes from God's Word to which that quote is in that category.



Thus you and I and all Baha'i do not beleive in a Doctrine called a 'Trinity'.



How does a difference of opinion have anything to do with our Unity in our Diversity?

You are welcome for a coffee, tea, milo, bonox, biscuit, cake, pavlova, cheesecake anytime.

Regards Tony

The last part is how you expressed your opinions. Its not humble and not by far peace.

We dont believe in the trinity. I dont like math but I can talk about it. Thr only experience I know of gods existence is through christ (in him, through him (RC), not As him). I dont know the muslim, bahai, jewish god because there is no christ said equal to god himself.

Outside of that, if you are taking jesus Is god as literal, then yes, you are right.

Thats not christian doctrine. Its father, son, And holy spirit not father is son is holy spirit.

And is a conjunction to relate more than one seperate individual thing, concept, idea, or person (noun) together. I dont know the hebrew and greek original interpretation just english.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Carlita

I never heard of any christian calling jesus the creator. That would mean there'd be no creator. They believe he has the same authority with the creator and a perfect relationship with the creator that in prophet faiths one can only get through that said prophet or manifestation.

I have heard Christians say that Jesus created the earth because Jesus is God.

As for the holy spirit, its just the spirit of god working as the love, mercy, compassion of god.
Bahai doesnt have that?

The passage below explains what the Holy Spirit is and how the Holy Spirit works. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that comes from the Manifestations of God to humanity. The Holy Spirit reflects upon humans and is associated with their intellectual reality but it does not descend into their bodies as most Christians believe.

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT
Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror. Some Answered Questions, p. 108

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The only experience I know of gods existence is through christ (in him, through him (RC), not As him). I dont know the muslim, bahai, jewish god because there is no christ said equal to god himself.

Knowledge of Christ includes all the Prophets of the Torah and is the same God as the Christains.

Christ has said in John 5:46"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."

Then in Luke 24:44 Christ Said "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Knowledge of Christ includes all the Prophets of the Torah and is the same God as the Christains.

Christ has said in John 5:46"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."

Then in Luke 24:44 Christ Said "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Regards Tony

Another reason I left christianity is I dont want to base my life on the bible. Its not a source to where I can understand the world around me. I understand christ given the sacraments. I dont relate to the bible.

That said, the scriptures do nothing for me. Scripture does not align moses and other prophets with jesus. They arent equal. Jesus saved gentiles/pagans, christian pagans, and father-observant jews. You and I are pagans. Christians are not. Our relations with the bible are different (not wrong, different) than that of a christian and scripture. Most pagans understand the difference, Muslims do, and Jews do. If not, they'd be christian.

Knowledge or christ is only through god. All prophets know this. Muhammad knows this. Jews no this. JW knows this. To know the prophets, you must know god. If you dont know god, why trust the prophets? They speak of something you trust them to reveil gods existence. If no prophet, for you no god.

To me, that does not make sense. Though, Im not christian, bahai, muslim, nor zoarastar for that matter. Id rather speak to god direct. Cant understand the rays/prophets if you cant look at the sun. You cant look at the sun without the grace and love (sun shades) of god. Its god first then prophets.

Least that makes more sense. Prophets always pointed to god first. They didnt look at prophets to go to god. They went directly. In the last X amount of years that changed.

Which lead me to the question only adrian answered. Bahaullah is pretty recent. My great great grandmother would be around his death.

Given bahai is a recent religion, if my gg-grandmother was born say ten years earlier, would she have met a man with direct knowledge and experience of god? Would his experience, in her presence, would be different than that of hers and other christians in their era?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

When I used to go to a southern baptist church and somewhat baptized in a pentocastal church almost fifteen years ago or more, I thought christians believed jesus is the father and holy spirit. Christians pound this a lot. I read the bible in full but never thought twice about it.

Seventeen years ago, I went into Roman Catholicism. I practice Buddhism for the years in between. Witchcraft from mothers side from young to about twelve. If she didnt take us to church (shes not christian), I would have never heard the word god nor bible.

When I took the sacraments, I read the bible again. Then, I understood what it meant for jesus to be god and spirit.

Jesus is the son of god (image of/like father, like son). You cant get to god unless through christ.

The holy spirit (christ spirit). Came in acts to let people who believe potest to the love and salvation of christ

God/father himself: the person with whom all living prophets, pagans, jews, etc owe their worship and existence.

These things are one family: unified. As one. a body. Trinity (creator/salvation/grace) thats the trinity.

Then I met JW friends who invited me to the Hall. Their explanation of the trinity was interesting. Though, I understand since they define trinity like you do not how its experienced in Thr Church by far a Catholic one! baptist maybe. According to the nicene creed (if you took the time to read my other post), the trinity does not have IS.

It has: through, image, of, from, alike.

Not Is, As, are, am.

Totally different. Its not what Bahai is referring to at all. Not from a long shot.

Instead, according to your posts, you guys go off of hearsay. So basically, like muhammad, yall go off of what you hear and interpretations of scripture from a nonchristian. Its interesting.

But christians dont claim unity among diversity. I dont think muslims do. Jews do not at all. So, I respect why they call us lost etc.

But bahai, and universist, wow. I did see a bahai temple on the way to class. If I didnt come on this thread, Id probably visit. That is if they can hold a conversation on diversity. Probably can but this thread is a bad inpression or you guys faith.

Anyway, your version of the trinity is not catholic. They dont believe in god division. Youre defending a claim that doesnt exist in mainstream thought.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Another reason I left christianity is I dont want to base my life on the bible. Its not a source to where I can understand the world around me. I understand christ given the sacraments. I dont relate to the bible.

What is reality, is found in the Bible, a spiritual story is contained in each passage. This world is a vapor in the desert, it is the illusion, it is the trap that allows material senses to dominate the Spiritual senses.

What is it we look for? It is to the example of Jesus in the Bible, where we can see it is to be used to become the embodiment of virtues, to do unto others as you would have them do to you.

The aim is to put the Will of God over our own will and desires. If you do not beleive in God, then all your motivations do come from your view of the world.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Given bahai is a recent religion, if my gg-grandmother was born say ten years earlier, would she have met a man with direct knowledge and experience of god? Would his experience, in her presence, would be different than that of hers and other christians in their era?

You Grear Grandmother would have met the One all Faiths pray and wait for.

All those that met Baha'u'llah had an experience they would not forget. Many were new people when they left.

Many stories are available to read.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What is reality, is found in the Bible, a spiritual story is contained in each passage. This world is a vapor in the desert, it is the illusion, it is the trap that allows material senses to dominate the Spiritual senses.

What is it we look for? It is to the example of Jesus in the Bible, where we can see it is to be used to become the embodiment of virtues, to do unto others as you would have them do to you.

The aim is to put the Will of God over our own will and desires. If you do not beleive in God, then all your motivations do come from your view of the world.

Regards Tony

Its not reality. Its only your interpretation of it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You Grear Grandmother would have met the One all Faiths pray and wait for.

All those that met Baha'u'llah had an experience they would not forget. Many were new people when they left.

Many stories are available to read.

Regards Tony

Id find that kinda odd, really. There are many god like humble people today. There is no change on humanity from then till now. Car models. Modern electronics. Food, yes. Spirituality, no. If there is no "bahaullah" today why would I think there was a manifestation back when?

What reason would anyone (anyone) think bahaullah has anything to do with god from books?