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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate. Did your practice of Catholicism for four years prove to you that God exists and Jesus is God? I think the answer to that question is 'No.'

    Can the practice of Christianity help you determine whether or not the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden is literally true? Once again, it can not.

    You may believe that Jesus is God incarnate, and you may believe a serpent really tempted Eve with an apple, but believing them does not make it true.
     
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  2. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Its the addictive nature of religious discussion forums.:)

    That itch you just have to scratch in the vain hope that if you do, it will go away and you want have to scratch no more.:D
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I never attributed anything to Hinduism. Hinduism has nothing to do with Bahaullah.

    If you want to understand Buddhism, you have to practice it. YOU. Not my version. Not Tony's version. The Dharma version. The Method; the Way. Not god. Not bahaullah. Not Brahma. Not Christ. Not Muhammad. The Dharma. It is about man not The Buddha and any other revealed religion nor of any god.

    Where would you start?

    I can't speak for Krishna. The little Hinduism I know and my visit at the temple gives me the impression, like Catholicism and Buddhism, that it isn't about scripture and the suttas it is about what you DO. How you Experience the Holy Spirit or not and Brahman.

    I'm not a guru, monk, or nun. If you want formal teaching you'd have to go to a temple and practice with monastic instruction. If you want to practice for yourself (which is the goal; practice of man), read the suttas from The Buddha's perspective: not Bahaullah. Not Brahma. Not Christ. Not God.

    Start with meditation: watching your breathe. It's not "Buddhist" nor "Hindu" teachings specifically, anyone can meditate and experience the results. However, in Buddhism it is essential to start with the basics before going into specifics. That and you can breathe on your own. Many visualization techniques rely on a monastic in Buddhism.
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Question with a question. Also, I'm referring to Hinduism. Christianity is a scripture based faith. Hinduism is not. That is my point.
    (I think the answer to that question is 'No.') You don't have to be rude about it. No arguments. Debates are not arguments so no need to be sarcastic.

    Jesus has the holy spirit (the spirit of god) within him. When you take the sacraments of Christ, you take the Passion of Christ within you. Christ's spirit is in union with god's spirit. When you are in union with Christ, you are in union with god.

    I am not a protestant at all. I am fully 100% Roman Catholic.

    The only experience of god I know is through Christ. I cannot be a Jew, Muslim, nor a Bahai because I do not know what a god is separate from the physical sacraments of Christ.

    That is your belief. Why ask the question if you answer it for me?

    I never looked into the story of Adam and Eve. When you take the sacraments of Christ, it's about your relationship with Christ not whether Adam and Eve story is symbolic, if you like, or literal. The point is that sin came into the world through Eve and that the sacraments of Christ through baptism lets Catholics know they are forgiven by Christ (thereby god) and continue living the sacraments in the name of Christ to god.

    Experiencing them does. That's my whole point. It is not a belief. It's not symbolism. It is literal. It is a fact because you experience it. Unless you are calling my (and millions of Catholics) experiences fake, this whole post is rude to many people who believe differently not wrongly than you do.

    Again, I never looked into the story of Adam and Eve. The bible says we sinned. I sin. You sin. It's a fancy word for doing something wrong against your nature. Whether you agree that you literally or symbolically sinned is up to you.

    Let me also ask. Is god literal to you or symbolic?

    (I can't prove god [an entity] from a book nor can I prove Adam and Eve and both are written from books.)
     
  5. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    God is real to me, and that is my belief. How do I know God? Through His Manifestations. Does my believing Him to be real, make Him real? No. Believing Him to be real, makes him real to me, but in truth He may be no more real than Santa Claus. Does Santa Claus really exist for the child who believes? He doesn't.

    I'm not trying to be rude, sarcastic or difficult. There is no offense intended. I'm simply trying to make a point.

    We had this discussion early in the thread about beliefs and truth. We have different ideas about the relationship between beliefs and truth.
     
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  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    But how does anyone know that they themselves aren't doing exactly that? In prophet based religions, don't all adherents claim they heed the words of their prophet? Also, don't many accuse everyone else of not following the words of the prophet? In many Christian sects, that's what they do. In Islam, the Sunnis and Shia each claim they're the ones listening, and the other guys aren't. Who is right?
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    This is confusing.

    1. God is real to you: Literally?

    2. Was god literal to the manifestations?
    If so, why would their connection with god be literal to them but real to you (if you see the two definitions differently)?

    3. Believing in manifestations doesn't make him real? What makes the manifestations real? It can't be you. It's not about man, right?

    4. Believing in him makes him real to you? So they aren't facts? (Did you say you were agnostic on the idea of god? You or Lover said it, I can't remember)

    5. How can you compare god to santa?
    This is probably why you see the bible as symbolic, though. If you compare god's "realism" to santa, than your relationship with him is different and foreign to those I am around and to my experience with christ. I'm not agnostic.

    Online makes it sound sarcastic. Plus, asking me a question and answering it for me is a sarcastic way of making a point.

    I'm not talking about truth. I'm talking of the word literal.

    If god is not literal, is he symbolic?

    I know he is real to you but is he a fact. Does he exist literally regardless of what other people believe?
     
  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I will answer that by quoting and organising your remarks and end with my one input;

    "If you want to understand Buddhism, Where would you start?"

    "Not my version. Not Tony's version. The Dharma version."

    "The Method; the Way."

    Find what the Buddha really taught and follow that guidance.

    Call it what you may, to practice it in your own way, you are making a God/Buddha of your own Practice, in doing so one makes themself equal to God, or Buddha.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I see this as being incredibly central to this entire debate. Most Hindus simply do not read scripture. They go to temple, they work, they get samskaras (rituals) done for their family, they enjoy living a full life, they go to weddings and funerals, they talk and socialize when given the opportunity.

    (There is a parallel to sect socializing organisation structure based on language.) Here in my city we have 10 temples, but also maybe 20 cultural associations. The Kannada Association, the Malayalee, the Tamil, the Bengali, the Gujarati (3 of them) , and the list goes on. They have picnics, put on dance performances with the kids, celebrate festivals of maybe 3 religions, and live full joyous lives. Music, dance, food, religion ... it's all in there. That way of life is just so different. Sitting around philosophising is the last thing anyone would want to do, let alone read a ton of scripture. Yes it is done by some, but only the scholars take is seriously. Political discussion is 10 times more common.

    Contrast that to Abrahamics ... It is almost entirely about the book, the prophet, gaining more adherents, and maybe some social work thrown in.

    In this thread, when Didymus and Adrian, and you start discussing philosophy, especially Christian philosophy, I am just totally lost. Most of the Bahai's here have read the Bhagavad Gita, and I haven't, and I'm the Hindu. That says a lot. My Guru taught ... go to temple, meditate, do japa, help people, be uplifting, and DON'T READ much. All you need is the basic idea.

    Very different paradigms, and I still don't think they get that.
     
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  10. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Yes

    He is the source of my being, of all-creation.
    He is the generating impulse for all humanity.
    Just as the mystic dove warbles her melody, beyond the realms of human comprehension.

    Yes

    Real is a much stronger word than literal.

    I believe Christ, Baha'u'llah, and Krishna were real people who walked upon the earth as other men do, but they were spiritually much greater than the rest of us. That is why they have inspired so many millions of souls throughout many generations.

    Believing in these people makes them real to me. Just because I believe in them doesn't mean they existed.

    Another said I was agnostic about the idea of reincarnation, not God. Those weren't my words. The reason that came about was my statement that I don't believe in reincarnation but it could be true.

    I'm not comparing God to Santa. I'm comparing a belief in God to a belief in Santa. One I believe in, the other I don't. Most of us here (I would hope) agree that Santa doesn't exist, yet millions of children all around the planet believe he is real.

    Its just my style of debating and discussing...nothing more to it.

    God is real and literal to me.
     
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  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Tony. It is not my way. You go by written text. I can quote a book full of suttas that point to You. Man. Its a man-teaching. The Dhamma is applied to man. Lived by man. Man goes through rebirth. Man experiences liberation.

    Show me where The Buddha talks about enlightenment involving anyone other than man. Tendai believe all living-plants and animals-have Buddha nature (potiential to be enligtened).

    It is about man. Where in the suttas does it not. We can go from there.

    Not bahaullah. The actual suttas.
     
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  12. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I understand that, not that it ends there.

    Everything your guru said would apply to my Faith too, except reading. Education is very important to Baha'is.

    I see its hard for you to properly understand the Abrahamics and the way you describe us, isn't a fair reflection IMHO of who we are.

    We probably understand it better than you think we do, and not as much as we believe we do.:)

    It does seem to me, the Baha'is for all our faults are interested and willing to learn. LH is married to a woman from Burma and my wife is part Japanese. We have a bridge between the East and West in our day to day lives.
     
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  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    LOL I was reading yesterday about Rinzai and zen and in Renzai during meditation if you feel like you fallin asleep, you raise your hand to signal the master. He comes up wih a pattle or stick and its your shounders to "wake up the enlightenment" in the practitioner. No books. Sit. Stand. Eat. Sit. sleep. Etc.

    Catholicism, the opposite of Roman, are eastern oriented. Not quite theological as Roman Catholics though RC has a practice-only religion. The older catholics were allowed to read their bibles. Its all mystics and very involved. Probably the only christian denomination that doesnt depend on reading the bible to practice it.

    Weidly enough, bahai are debsting from a protestant view and they arent protestant (denominations separated from catholic-protested against The Church)

    I honestly dont know. Ive not met a christian who did not get it. If anything, they are on the other extreme. Its so different they call yoj a devil worshiper. Cant win.
     
  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Hi Carlita.

    For me it’s similar. I first knew God through Jesus and then I developed a personal love and inner attachment to His Spirit and through His Life and example.

    Although I was born and raised a Catholic my passion for Jesus came but from His Self and Life. And I always carry that around with me.

    It’s the same with Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad and Zoroaster. My passion for Them comes from Their Life and Teachings.

    One can still have a strong passionate belief for all the Divine Educators through Their Lives and Teachings.

    The first disciples of Christ knew no sacraments. All they knew was the Words Jesus spoke to them so their belief was based directly upon Jesus Life and Teachings.

    We can come to know and love and have strong passionate belief for all the Educators through Their Lives and Teachings independent of others.

    Indeed, independent investigation of truth demands that our belief is based upon our own research not what others may think or say.

    But sharing is important in the learning process to be able to see things from more than just our own perspective.

    Think of all the grains of sand discovered or not in the universe and my knowledge is not yet an atom of one of those grains of sand.

    You speak a lot of truth I believe as do others here.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Adrian. I dont understand. They are real to you but symbolic to someone else? The Eucharist can be symbolic to you and real to someone else? Id never say what you believe is not real and symbolic. I dont believe that anyhow. I dont have a right to believe anyone believes anything wrong because my belief says the opposite.

    That is all god-Abrahamoc faiths.

    If you believe in Krishna, than why is he a human (real human not incarnation) and not god?

    Do you think Hindu just make up their beliefs just because they dont read their scripture? What do you think the scripture came from? People or did it write itself?
     
  16. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Education is incredibly important to Hindus, just not scripture. Secular education, it could be argued, is too important, even leading to an unbalanced life. You falsely extended my statement. Just where did you think all those Indian doctors and engineers came from?

    Some Baha'i are interested, yes, but some aren't. Being married to a person from another culture may not mean much at all. Some of the most evangelical hell-fire Christians going are converts from India, at least in my experience. So, for me, we have to get to know people as individuals, and since Baha'i women seem to have an aversion to the internet, that isn't really easy.

    I did not know you went to a temple ( I meant a HINDU temple where God is invoked, and lives, through statues) and did japa.
     
  17. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Good to see you're still following the Baha'i belief, totally disrespecting the Hindu belief as it does. That shows strength and loyalty.
     
  18. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    No, but we recite the greatest name of God, Allah'u'Abha 95 times each day.

    Alláh-u-Abhá - Wikipedia

     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @adrian009

    I just thought of something when you mentioned the glass houses. I do take things literal. When you answer a question with a question, it doesnt mean anything else but dodging an answer by not actually posting. Just dawned on me when you said thats your conversation style.

    Facinating.
     
  20. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    So those names are the greatest? All this time I though the 108 names of Ganesha I recite are the greatest. Good to know. And you guys actually claim it isn't at all like Islam?
     
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