How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Start of discussion



End of discussion.

And if we had the knowledge of how to create peace then why isn't it here yesterday? Millions starving? Poverty, drugs, the environment all a wondrous result of our own making. I suppose this is paradise for some.

Don't you think that if we can't solve a problem then we should think about other ways? I suppose God's ways are off the table yet our learning is just leading to more countries with nukes, more starvation and more refugees.

Why are we so intent on going down a path that leads to just more war and conflict?

 

[loverofhumanity]

How does that at all relate to "our holy man knows better than anyone"? He is only a man, after all, and no different than any other prophet that claimed to speak for god, and brought war.

He came with a plan from God to bring the Most Great Peace.

I'm sick of wars and this system of violence and greed. I want a better world, a peaceful world so I'm building it brick by brick. Better than just doing nothing.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I'm sick of wars and this system of violence and greed. I want a better world, a peaceful world so I'm building it brick by brick. Better than just doing nothing.

Find me a period in all of human history that is free from war and greed. Your god and his messengers have had well near 2,000 years, and while their influence has undoubtedly been felt, it had brought no peace, and only brought more war and greed.

 

[siti]

Why are we so intent on going down a path that leads to just more war and conflict?

Er...dunno...could it be because so many people think that...

...the Divine infallible knowledge possessed by the Central Figures of our Faith, we believe, trumps any amount of human learning and cannot be wrong.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Find me a period in all of human history that is free from war and greed. Your god and his messengers have had well near 2,000 years, and while their influence has undoubtedly been felt, it had brought no peace, and only brought more war and greed.

And had their followers listened to Them we would have had peace long ago, but they didn't and power corrupted the leaders of religion so they went astray and led their followers into needless wars.

However this cannot happen in this age.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Er...dunno...could it be because so many people think that...

If we all followed what the Prophets taught, to,love all humanity, there would be world peace.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we all followed what the Prophets taught, to,love all humanity, there would be world peace.

Each world teacher taught different things and TLC. Since both are embedded, peace only happen when people agree with each other. The Buddha will agree on compassion but how to get the culture he would disagree if it did not mirror his methods of peace.

Jesus taught peace was only through himself to get to his father. Muslims agree but where Muhammad and Jesus differ is also How to get that world peace. Christians believe to get there is throuh jesus. Muslims believe one can get to the father directly by understanding the Teachings of the Quran. Their TLC are extremely different. Without agreement, both will be follow god different ways. War will happen because one person doesnt like how the other person worships god. Agreement is needed for peace.

Hinduism and Buddhism are different. Mahayana has gods, devas, and humans. Hinduism has gods, I think devas, and various incarnations. In hinduism, the gods play a Higher role in worship. In Buddhism they have the same status as The Buddha and humans. They all hear the same Dharms regardless of who they are. There must be agreement between the two for peace. Unlike christianity and muslim, though, they can agree to disagree without needed their partners religions founders in their religion to do so.

Bahai believe that god is the creator and no other god. They believe the prophets of each religion brought teachings of peace in their day. They also believe the prophets prophecied the coming bahaullah.

They say this is true of all religions.

To have peace, they MUST agree with you. These religions/religious/their TLC do not. However you continue to say they do without considering their beliefs as true.

That is rude and it is not world peace.

If you cannot accept that these religions dont teach the beliefs you say they have, how can you build world peace?

What is it founded on when you have one god, hindu have many, buddhist have non, and christian believe a human is god?

Where is the facts of your beliefs in these religionz that are interpreted by the religous of those religions not by your nor bahaullah?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Each world teacher taught different things and TLC. Since both are embedded, peace only happen when people agree with each other. The Buddha will agree on compassion but how to get the culture he would disagree if it did not mirror his methods of peace.

Jesus taught peace was only through himself to get to his father. Muslims agree but where Muhammad and Jesus differ is also How to get that world peace. Christians believe to get there is throuh jesus. Muslims believe one can get to the father directly by understanding the Teachings of the Quran. Their TLC are extremely different. Without agreement, both will be follow god different ways. War will happen because one person doesnt like how the other person worships god. Agreement is needed for peace.

Hinduism and Buddhism are different. Mahayana has gods, devas, and humans. Hinduism has gods, I think devas, and various incarnations. In hinduism, the gods play a Higher role in worship. In Buddhism they have the same status as The Buddha and humans. They all hear the same Dharms regardless of who they are. There must be agreement between the two for peace. Unlike christianity and muslim, though, they can agree to disagree without needed their partners religions founders in their religion to do so.

Bahai believe that god is the creator and no other god. They believe the prophets of each religion brought teachings of peace in their day. They also believe the prophets prophecied the coming bahaullah.

They say this is true of all religions.

To have peace, they MUST agree with you. These religions/religious/their TLC do not. However you continue to say they do without considering their beliefs as true.

That is rude and it is not world peace.

If you cannot accept that these religions dont teach the beliefs you say they have, how can you build world peace?

What is it founded on when you have one god, hindu have many, buddhist have non, and christian believe a human is god?

Where is the facts of your beliefs in these religionz that are interpreted by the religous of those religions not by your nor bahaullah?

Ok let me clarify.

There are two kinds of peace that we are told will occur.

The first Peace is called the Lesser Peace. The second Peace is called the Most Great Peace.

As to the Lesser Peace, Shoghi Effendi has explained that this will initially be a political unity arrived at by decision of the governments of various nations; it will not be established by direct action of the Bahá’í community.

We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First, there will come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be achieved,

then gradually the Most Great Peace—the spiritual as well as social and political unity of mankind, when the Bahá’í World Commonwealth, operating in strict accordance with the laws and ordinances of the Most Holy Book of the Bahá’í Revelation, will have been established through the efforts of the Bahá’ís.

The Lesser Peace many of us will likely see soon but the Most Great Peace will take centuries because that's how long it will take for humanity to recognise Baha'u'llah.

This is a very brief introduction to these topics but they are topics in themselves. Baha'is help promote the Lesser Pewce but will not take direct part in its establishment because it will be a political unity. So the current people of the world will basically agree to the Lesser Peace. But it will not be based on love or spirituality.

 

[Vinayaka]

The only way to clear some things up is to get them out in the open where they can be discussed.

But other things that are part of the Divine Authority of the Bahá'í Covenant are non negotiable such as Krishna and Buddha. It states that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice are infallible so their pronouncements on these matters are Divinely guided not just personal opinions.

In other words, the Divine infallible knowledge possessed by the Central Figures of our Faith, we believe, trumps any amount of human learning and cannot be wrong.

Scholars do not belong in that category.

I've never believed in infallible, and I think such declarations and beliefs foster a great deal of intolerance, because you get statements like, 'It must be true because _______ said so." In an interfaith discussion that leads nowhere. Infallible? Really?

 

[Vinayaka]

And if we had the knowledge of how to create peace then why isn't it here yesterday? Millions starving? Poverty, drugs, the environment all a wondrous result of our own making. I suppose this is paradise for some.

Don't you think that if we can't solve a problem then we should think about other ways? I suppose God's ways are off the table yet our learning is just leading to more countries with nukes, more starvation and more refugees.

Why are we so intent on going down a path that leads to just more war and conflict?

Let's face it. Some people are ignorant. Just because we have such knowledge doesn't mean we can apply it. There are tons of people working every day to keep this planet peaceful. It also starts at home.

When you say 'we' just who do you mean?

 

[Vinayaka]

The idea that you're rich and successful therefore your ancestors must have been benevolent great leaders and you are reaping the rewards of their Karma or the idea that others are poor and suffering is just a result of their ancestors being evil and they are thus paying for their mistakes is such a silly and usually a self serving ideology that it is just wrong.

Clearly you don't understand karma. Firstly, it's not your ancestors, it's you, and secondly, there is no such thing as 'rich and successful' in karmic terms. In karma, 'rich and successful' would be happiness or contentment, in whatever lot you're in.

 

[Vinayaka]

And had their followers listened to Them we would have had peace long ago, but they didn't and power corrupted the leaders of religion so they went astray and led their followers into needless wars.

However this cannot happen in this age.

According to those followers, they were listening. They would tell you that its you who isn't listening. In fact they have told you that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Interesting. This is something new in the conversation. Interesting.

The first Peace is called the Lesser Peace. The second Peace is called the Most Great Peace.

Although I understand what you mean in your post, I always thought that one world peace is a combination of spiritual and, I guess, political. When everyone is agreeing to respect each other and no CA on each other's beliefs, there would hopefully be as a result less wars, more comprise, and better politics. What is also important is that US, for example, won't stick their nose into other country's political concerns without their sayso. A lot of people take advantage of US and put down our culture a lot. World peace will hopefully relieve all of that. That, to me, is greater peace. I don't see how they can be separated and i my language be greater or lesser.

Interesting.

As to the Lesser Peace, Shoghi Effendi has explained that this will initially be a political unity arrived at by decision of the governments of various nations; it will not be established by direct action of the Bahá’í community.

I'd think the lesser world peace will happen as a result of the greater world peace?

then gradually the Most Great Peace—the spiritual as well as social and political unity of mankind, when the Bahá’í World Commonwealth, operating in strict accordance with the laws and ordinances of the Most Holy Book of the Bahá’í Revelation, will have been established through the efforts of the Bahá’ís.

The Lesser Peace many of us will likely see soon but the Most Great Peace will take centuries because that's how long it will take for humanity to recognise Baha'u'llah.

This is not a step towards world peace. Rather, instead of expecting people to recognize Bahaullah, since that's not in everyone's religion, be like a bodhisattva and expect people to derive at world peace through their respective founders, practice, prophets, and/or gods. It's not about Bahai, you, or I. World peace focus on other people not making other people have peace as we define it.

This is a very brief introduction to these topics but they are topics in themselves. Baha'is help promote the Lesser Pewce but will not take direct part in its establishment because it will be a political unity. So the current people of the world will basically agree to the Lesser Peace. But it will not be based on love or spirituality.

This is not a step towards world peace. World peace, greater world peace, will respect people for how they get to love or spirituality by their respectiev faiths. It will not tell others they will not have greate peace on love nad spirituality because to do so is basing it on that person's religion rather than the other person.

This and the other bold comment is exactly what I'm talking about. If you change your perspective and focus on other people and how they get to love and spirituality as defined by their TLC (pun and no pun) you are at a greater chance of being in unity.

If not, to many people on this thread, it's me vs. them. There is nothing wrong with that as long as one can acknowledge it and admit it.

 

[Vinayaka]

In my view, heavily influenced by Hinduism and ahimsa, and Gandhi, peace starts at home with the individual. Changing individuals will change families will change villages will change countries, etc.

So speaking peacefully with other people sets an example for them. The main person we can control is ourselves. Anger of any kind defeats the purpose. Telling other people they are wrong and need changing defeats the purpose.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've never believed in infallible, and I think such declarations and beliefs foster a great deal of intolerance, because you get statements like, 'It must be true because _______ said so." In an interfaith discussion that leads nowhere. Infallible? Really?

There are those who do believe in the concept. They believe in an All Knowing God Who sent Messengers to guide humanity and endowed them with perfect knowledge.

If it's true then such knowledge is of great value to humanity and should not be cast aside lightly.

We've already had two world wars, no matter what we've tried we haven't been able to find peace. We have problems like terrorism and the environment, the refugee crisis and millions on the verge of starvation yet confusion exists as to what to do about these problems.

We believe without Divine wisdom and knowledge we are incapable of solving these problems.

It means honesty in admitting we haven't got the answer and enough humility to look at alternatives if we really sincerely want peace.

 

[Vinayaka]

There are those who do believe in the concept. They believe in an All Knowing God Who sent Messengers to guide humanity and endowed them with perfect knowledge.

If it's true then such knowledge is of great value to humanity and should not be cast aside lightly.

We've already had two world wars, no matter what we've tried we haven't been able to find peace. We have problems like terrorism and the environment, the refugee crisis and millions on the verge of starvation yet confusion exists as to what to do about these problems.

We believe without Divine wisdom and knowledge we are incapable of solving these problems.

It means honesty in admitting we haven't got the answer and enough humility to look at alternatives if we really sincerely want peace.

Just for clarification, 'we' means Bahais? Or does it mean all of humanity. I think you've got both in here. Maybe rather than using 'we' you could use 'humans' or 'Bahais'. I'm confused enough as it is without having to figure this stuff out.

As for peace, I believe we have seen great progress on this planet. For example, because of what happened in Rwanda, the world is watching Bangladesh closely so another genocide doesn't occur. Another example is the Muslim invasions of India and destruction of 100 000 temples, and the largest known genocide in history. I can't see that happening again in today's world. The second world war ended 71 years ago. Yes there have bees some brutal smaller wars since and several are still going on, but we're working on it. None of this progress had anything to do with Bahai. If a prophet was so powerful as prophet based religions seem to claim, he could just wave his magic wand and all wars would just cease immediately.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Interesting. This is something new in the conversation. Interesting.


Although I understand what you mean in your post, I always thought that one world peace is a combination of spiritual and, I guess, political. When everyone is agreeing to respect each other and no CA on each other's beliefs, there would hopefully be as a result less wars, more comprise, and better politics. What is also important is that US, for example, won't stick their nose into other country's political concerns without their sayso. A lot of people take advantage of US and put down our culture a lot. World peace will hopefully relieve all of that. That, to me, is greater peace. I don't see how they can be separated and i my language be greater or lesser.

Interesting.



I'd think the lesser world peace will happen as a result of the greater world peace?





This is not a step towards world peace. Rather, instead of expecting people to recognize Bahaullah, since that's not in everyone's religion, be like a bodhisattva and expect people to derive at world peace through their respective founders, practice, prophets, and/or gods. It's not about Bahai, you, or I. World peace focus on other people not making other people have peace as we define it.



This is not a step towards world peace. World peace, greater world peace, will respect people for how they get to love or spirituality by their respectiev faiths. It will not tell others they will not have greate peace on love nad spirituality because to do so is basing it on that person's religion rather than the other person.

This and the other bold comment is exactly what I'm talking about. If you change your perspective and focus on other people and how they get to love and spirituality as defined by their TLC (pun and no pun) you are at a greater chance of being in unity.

If not, to many people on this thread, it's me vs. them. There is nothing wrong with that as long as one can acknowledge it and admit it.

The Most Great Peace is when the laws of Baha'u'llah will be implemented worldwide in the form of a world civilisation.

"One of the great events which is to occur in the Day of the
manifestation of that Incomparable Branch (Bahá'u’lláh) is
the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By
this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered
together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is
no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a
single nation.

Religious and sectarian antagonism, the
hostility of races and peoples, and differences among
nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one
religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into
one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one
common fatherland, which is the planet itself. (SAQ 65) "

 

[Vinayaka]

The Most Great Peace is when the laws of Baha'u'llah will be implemented worldwide in the form of a world civilisation.

"One of the great events which is to occur in the Day of the
manifestation of that Incomparable Branch (Bahá'u’lláh) is
the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By
this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered
together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is
no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a
single nation.

Religious and sectarian antagonism, the
hostility of races and peoples, and differences among
nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one
religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into
one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one
common fatherland, which is the planet itself. (SAQ 65) "

But what do YOU think? Anyone can cut and paste.

 

[loverofhumanity]

According to those followers, they were listening. They would tell you that its you who isn't listening. In fact they have told you that.

If they obeyed what was in their Holy Books we would have had peace long ago.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just for clarification, 'we' means Bahais? Or does it mean all of humanity. I think you've got both in here. Maybe rather than using 'we' you could use 'humans' or 'Bahais'. I'm confused enough as it is without having to figure this stuff out.

As for peace, I believe we have seen great progress on this planet. For example, because of what happened in Rwanda, the world is watching Bangladesh closely so another genocide doesn't occur. Another example is the Muslim invasions of India and destruction of 100 000 temples, and the largest known genocide in history. I can't see that happening again in today's world. The second world war ended 71 years ago. Yes there have bees some brutal smaller wars since and several are still going on, but we're working on it. None of this progress had anything to do with Bahai. If a prophet was so powerful as prophet based religions seem to claim, he could just wave his magic wand and all wars would just cease immediately.

By 'we' I meant we Baha'is believe that humanity cannot find peace without being forced into it through a third war which could bring about the banning of war but not true peace. That is based on our teachings not just our opinion.

The real peace Baha'is believe, will take many centuries and be a spiritual civilisation. That is the peace we are working towards. It's called the Most Great Peace when all religions become one religion and all races and nations unite as one nation and one family.