Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

The promise of Heaven or the threat of Hell are not valid reasons to have Faith.

It is all balanced around Truth, we are to have faith for truths sake, founded in logic and reason and balanced with science.

Regards Tony

How many Atheists have asked for logic, reason and for Baha'i beliefs to be supported with science? This thread is all about not having logic, reason and science on the side of Baha'is. Just the belief that Gods says homosexuality is unnatural and wrong. How do we know God said this? Because his manifestation said so? And how do we know he is God's manifestation? Most all the Atheists have left this thread. So, has the Baha'i Faith been the cause of unity or division? Obviously, division. But I know Baha'is believe they have God and truth on their side, and Baha'is can't compromise with what they believe is God's truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

No it is not, that is what you are saying.

Now you can see why quotes are appropriate, there are many, but I have to fo to work, here is but one.

"... Such objections and differences have persisted in every age and century. The people have always busied themselves with such specious discourses, vainly protesting: “Wherefore hath not this or that sign appeared?” Such ills befell them only because they have clung to the ways of the divines of the age in which they lived, and blindly imitated them in accepting or denying these Essences of Detachment, these holy and divine Beings. These leaders, owing to their immersion in selfish desires, and their pursuit of transitory and sordid things, have regarded these divine Luminaries as being opposed to the standards of their knowledge and understanding, and the opponents of their ways and judgments. As they have literally interpreted the Word of God, and the sayings and traditions of the Letters of Unity, and expounded them according to their own deficient understanding, they have therefore deprived themselves and all their people of the bountiful showers of the grace and mercies of God....."

Regards Tony

Unfortunately, it's the Scriptures themselves that are also the reason why each new religion claiming to be fulfilling one or more previous religions isn't accepted. Did Jesus even come close to fulfilling the prophecies about the Messiah? If people can't see it from the Jewish perspective and see that to them, he didn't, then they aren't trying.

And same thing going from Christianity to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. They are good reasons not to believe Muhammad or the Bab or Baha'u'llah are returns of the "Christ" spirit. To Baha'is, yes. You have some prophecies that are convincing for you and to you the religion makes sense. But if Baha'is can't see it from the perspective of the other people in the other religions, they will never connect in a meaningful way with those people. It will always be "We are right, and you are wrong."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many Atheists have asked for logic, reason and for Baha'i beliefs to be supported with science? This thread is all about not having logic, reason and science on the side of Baha'is. Just the belief that Gods says homosexuality is unnatural and wrong. How do we know God said this? Because his manifestation said so? And how do we know he is God's manifestation? Most all the Atheists have left this thread. So, has the Baha'i Faith been the cause of unity or division? Obviously, division. But I know Baha'is believe they have God and truth on their side, and Baha'is can't compromise with what they believe is God's truth.

I fully expect to see this level of conflict, in fact I expect the conflict and rejection to widen.

The Logic and Reason a Baha'i has used to determine the truth in what Baha'u'llah offered is as valid as any previois Faith, even more so now, as we do not reject science, we use it to gain deeper spiritual understandings, as would many others, of other faiths also do now.

No the Law will not change by me saying that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unfortunately, it's the Scriptures themselves that are also the reason why each new religion claiming to be fulfilling one or more previous religions isn't accepted. Did Jesus even come close to fulfilling the prophecies about the Messiah? If people can't see it from the Jewish perspective and see that to them, he didn't, then they aren't trying.

And same thing going from Christianity to Islam and the Baha'i Faith. They are good reasons not to believe Muhammad or the Bab or Baha'u'llah are returns of the "Christ" spirit. To Baha'is, yes. You have some prophecies that are convincing for you and to you the religion makes sense. But if Baha'is can't see it from the perspective of the other people in the other religions, they will never connect in a meaningful way with those people. It will always be "We are right, and you are wrong."

The key thought here is, that we can put the right and wrong to the side, it is not stopping the Baha'i from embracing all the other Faiths in the world, even if we see the scriptures in another light.

Will the Jew embrace the Muslim and the Christians, likewise will they each other? The Hindu are better at this than many other faiths.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I would offer any valid intellectual reason one sees they have to refute Baha'u'llah, would likewise refute all Messengers and also refute God.

The reason is all the Messengers are One with God, as they One and All radiate the same given Holy Spirit.

In the Kitab-i-iqan Baha'u'llah explains how with each new Revelation of God, the "Return" is made manifest and at the same time the same rejections used since time began, are also made manifest.

The God given Messages are spread mostly by the rejection, what a quandary indeed! That is how the Baha'i Faith got to Akka and Haifa.

As well as Baghdad, Constantinople and Adrianople, they all had a Messenger live amongst them, yet most recognised Him not!

View attachment 67800

Micah 7:12
New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

King James Bible
In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain

What an excellent prophecy that was!

And this,

Isaiah 35:2
King James Bible
It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Regards Tony

Why do Baha'is reject the Ahmadiyya and their prophet that claimed to be the return of Christ? I would imagine he had some interpretations of some prophecies also.

But this quote from Micah 7:12 What is the context? You're still pulling one verse out and claiming that it is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah going to specific places on his way to Akka. It's not that "excellent" to me. Was the city that became Teheran ever within the Assyrian Empire? Why didn't Micah say Persia? One translation has cities in Egypt the other has fortified cities. But was it "people" or "he"? That's a big difference. Why would Micha say "people" if he meant the "Messiah"? And I don't know, but why couldn't it be exiled Jews returning to Israel?

 

[CG Didymus]

The key thought here is, that we can put the right and wrong to the side, it is not stopping the Baha'i from embracing all the other Faiths in the world, even if we see the scriptures in another light.

Will the Jew embrace the Muslim and the Christians, likewise will they each other? The Hindu are better at this than many other faiths.

Regards Tony

Well, that's the question... Do Baha'is "embrace" all other Faiths? How can Baha'is embrace religions that they believe have false beliefs? Now if you say that you love and embrace the people in these other religions and hope that they see that the Baha'i Faith is the continuation of the truth that their religion once had, that would be different.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do Baha'is reject the Ahmadiyya and their prophet that claimed to be the return of Christ?

Maybe answered this about 20 times now.

The link provided many times before.

Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, that's the question... Do Baha'is "embrace" all other Faiths? How can Baha'is embrace religions that they believe have false beliefs? Now if you say that you love and embrace the people in these other religions and hope that they see that the Baha'i Faith is the continuation of the truth that their religion once had, that would be different.

We visit other holy places and offer prayers, we attend other faith services. I only have the Churches where I live.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think you NEED a religion?

Do you think you are LESS without a religion?

No, I do not think I need a religion or that I am any less without a religion.
I was a Baha'i from 1970 until 2013 and for the majority of that time I had absolutely nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

How old is Baha'ism now? How long has it had to become corrupted? When will a new religion be needed?

The Baha'i Faith is about 160 years old. A new religion will be needed when God decides it is needed, but that will not be any sooner than the year 2852 AD.

 

[dybmh]

I would offer any valid intellectual reason one sees they have to refute Baha'u'llah, would likewise refute all Messengers and also refute God.

The Baha'i teaching violates the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments came from God. The Baha'i teachings do not come from God.

The reason is all the Messengers are One with God, as they One and All radiate the same given Holy Spirit.

Not true. Moses was not infallible, he was prohibited from entering the Holy Land because of a transgression. As usual, what you're saying is not applicable to Judaism.

In the Kitab-i-iqan Baha'u'llah explains how with each new Revelation of God, the "Return" is made manifest and at the same time the same rejections used since time began, are also made manifest.

It doesn't matter what Baha'u'llah wrote. He's not infallible. At best he was a savant, a gifted writer, a future-thinker. But he was susceptible to his own ignorance and arrogance just like anyone else.

Micah 7:12
New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

Ummmm. This translation is WRONG. Here's the Hebrew, where's the word 'Egypt' in the text. Spoiler, it's not there.

י֥וֹם הוּא֙ וְעָדֶ֣יךָ יָב֔וֹא לְמִנִּ֥י אַשּׁ֖וּר וְעָרֵ֣י מָצ֑וֹר וּלְמִנִּ֚י מָצוֹר֙ וְעַד־נָהָ֔ר וְיָ֥ם מִיָּ֖ם וְהַ֥ר הָה

King James Bible
In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain

At least this one is more accurate. But it still has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah, a messiah, or anything.

It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Well, first of all, the word 'all' emphasised above is not in the original Hebrew text. Second of all, this whole "Glory of God' = Baha'u'llah in the Torah is amateur rubbish.

 

[Vinayaka]

No it is not, that is what you are saying.

This is what you said... "I would offer any valid intellectual reason one sees they have to refute Baha'u'llah, would likewise refute all Messengers and also refute God."

How else would somebody interpret that? Please explain.

 

[Vinayaka]

No it is not, that is what you are saying.

Now you can see why quotes are appropriate, there are many, but I have to fo to work, here is but one.

"... Such objections and differences have persisted in every age and century. The people have always busied themselves with such specious discourses, vainly protesting: “Wherefore hath not this or that sign appeared?” Such ills befell them only because they have clung to the ways of the divines of the age in which they lived, and blindly imitated them in accepting or denying these Essences of Detachment, these holy and divine Beings. These leaders, owing to their immersion in selfish desires, and their pursuit of transitory and sordid things, have regarded these divine Luminaries as being opposed to the standards of their knowledge and understanding, and the opponents of their ways and judgments. As they have literally interpreted the Word of God, and the sayings and traditions of the Letters of Unity, and expounded them according to their own deficient understanding, they have therefore deprived themselves and all their people of the bountiful showers of the grace and mercies of God....."

Regards Tony

This is no better, perhaps even worse. I highlighted the insults in bold.

 

[Trailblazer]

The 10 commandments came from God. The Baha'i teachings do not come from God.

How do you know that the 10 commandments came from God?
How do you know that the Baha'i teachings do not come from God?

 

[Vinayaka]

You've not? Here you go then:

I would find the display of Buddhist symbols on Bahai temples insulting. This is because Bahai has appropriated Buddhism for its own agenda, and in doing so attempts to make fundamental changes to the core of Buddhism, claiming Buddhists have got Buddhism "wrong" - such as the Buddha being a messenger of god.
Patronising, arrogant, ignorant, deceptive, disingenuous, insulting ...need I go on?

So now we have Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu adherents objecting. I'm sure there are more. There is another list about non-Bahai's according to Baha'is ... ill, diseased, blind, deaf, and today I add atheist. For a sect that suggests it wants cooperation amongst the people of the earth, they sure seem to be going about it the wrong way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not true. Moses was not infallible, he was prohibited from entering the Holy Land because of a transgression. As usual, what you're saying is not applicable to Judaism.

That is the story you have from the Old Testament, but how do you know it is true? Can any of it be verified as actual history? Even if it did happen a transgression would not preclude Moses being infallible.

It doesn't matter what Baha'u'llah wrote. He's not infallible. At best he was a savant, a gifted writer, a future-thinker. But he was susceptible to his own ignorance and arrogance just like anyone else.

You are free to believe that if you want to but it is not a fact. It is just a belief, a personal opinion. It is also not a fact that Baha'u'llah is infallible, it is a belief. It is not a fact because it can never be proven.

 

[CG Didymus]

I fully expect to see this level of conflict, in fact I expect the conflict and rejection to widen.

The Logic and Reason a Baha'i has used to determine the truth in what Baha'u'llah offered is as valid as any previois Faith, even more so now, as we do not reject science, we use it to gain deeper spiritual understandings, as would many others, of other faiths also do now.

No the Law will not change by me saying that.

Regards Tony

But the Baha'i law forbidding homosexuality has no support from science, does it? And, as I've said, even if science could show that homosexuality was okay, Baha'is couldn't accept those findings over their teachings.

 

[Trailblazer]

And, as I've said, even if science could show that homosexuality was okay,

Science cannot show that homosexuality is okay or not okay since science does not weigh in on morality.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe answered this about 20 times now.

The link provided many times before.

Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

Regards Tony

Yes, why do you reject someone who makes the claim of being a prophet? The important thing is that you do. And how different are those reasons from the reasons people use to reject Baha'u'llah?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, why do you reject someone who makes the claim of being a prophet? The important thing is that you do. And how different are those reasons from the reasons people use to reject Baha'u'llah?

I really like the Ahmadiyya community here. They're very friendly people, at least all I've met. They're also strikingly similar to the Baha'i in terms of dates, origin, and all that jazz. They're also very widespread. They also aren't into proselytising at all the way the Baha'i are. There was one particular storekeeper who was such a nice man. Every time I went to his sore for temple supplies, he'd wink and give me a 'discount'.