Homophobia causes the problems, not homosexuality

[columbus]

I am not going to try to speak for all homosexuals. I am a white gay man, born and raised in the USA, in an extremely ordinary suburban Christian family. That is what I know. I believe that the human experiences of other gay people, including women, Russians, and Muslims are quite different. But there are some commonalities and I hope that other gay people will chime in with their take on the subject.

Gay people tend to be dysfunctional and self-destructive. From the rates of STDs to shallow relationships to chemical dependency, the statistics are pretty ugly. But it isn't because they are gay, it is because they grew up and live in a homophobic world.

We are taught from an early age that homosexuals are hell borne abominations. We are sex-crazed fools who don't care about anything but lust. We really ought to drink ourselves to death, because we cannot possibly have a good life. Decent Christian folks cannot stand to have us around because we are a danger to the children. They will help along to hell, if they get a chance, because gay people are so disgusting that even God Hates F-gs. Who wouldn't want to beaten up with a tire iron if it gave them a chance to repent their evil ways and go to Heaven? We should be grateful that Christians love us enough to take that risk! And then we realize, "OMG, I am one of 'those people'.

That usually happens around adolescence. You know, the most angst and insecurity ridden part of most people's lives? When you really don't know who you are or what you should do? Who can you turn to, when telling anybody is tantamount to admitting that you are the scum of the earth TO YOURSELF! You know that admitting gay feelings, even to yourself, makes you an evil person the world is better off without. Nobody can help you. You can't trust anybody, not even yourself.

Combine ingredients, turn burner up to HIGH, simmer until age 18, dump out on floor.

Putting people by the million through this process results in millions of people who are severely damaged in ways that aren't going to fixed by some Christian telling us "Jesus Loves You". It will result in a whole sub-culture of people who don't care what society thinks is good and "moral", they mostly just care about dick, looks, stuff and how to get more of them. Morality was closed off to them when they were little kids by the Christians who run things.

Homophobes are the ones who cause the problems amongst gay people by saying things like @1robin says. Not that he is unusual, as we all know. It is everywhere here in the USA where I live, and much worse in many other places.

If you want to stop gay people from indulging in self-destructive and socially destructive behavior you have to stop trashing their lives from the time they are little kids. You have to start treating homosexuality as a harmless quirk and not as choosing God's(and society's) wrath because we prefer sin.


Tom

 

[Iti oj]

*claps*

 

[Uberpod]

Gay people tend to be dysfunctional and self-destructive. From the rates of STDs to shallow relationships to chemical dependency, the statistics are pretty ugly

This might be too strongly worded. A significant minority have these issues and it is at a higher rate than comparable heterosexuals. Most gay people do not have these issues greater than the norm.

But it isn't because they are gay, it is because they grew up and live in a homophobic world.

I would also add being different as an adolescent even without homophobia is a bit of a stressor. It's harder to get a date !!

Combine ingredients, turn burner up to HIGH, simmer until age 18, dump out on floor.

A proverbial Hot Mess.

Putting people by the million through this process results in millions of people who are severely damaged in ways that aren't going to fixed by some Christian telling us "Jesus Loves You". It will result in a whole sub-culture of people who don't care what society thinks is good and "moral", they mostly just care about dick, looks, stuff and how to get more of them. Morality was closed off to them when they were little kids by the Christians who run things.

This may be a stage of sexual identity formation, perhaps. Most eventually outgrow this to a great deal.

Homophobes are the ones who cause the problems amongst gay people by saying things like @1robin says. Not that he is unusual, as we all know. It is everywhere here in the USA where I live, and much worse in many other places.

The horrible messages certainly do account for a high percentage of the stress, but again minority status alone also takes a toll, and personal responsibility has it place as well.

If you want to stop gay people from indulging in self-destructive and socially destructive behavior you have to stop trashing their lives from the time they are little kids. You have to start treating homosexuality as a harmless quirk and not as choosing God's(and society's) wrath because we prefer sin.


Tom

YUP

 

[Norman]

I am not going to try to speak for all homosexuals. I am a white gay man, born and raised in the USA, in an extremely ordinary suburban Christian family. That is what I know. I believe that the human experiences of other gay people, including women, Russians, and Muslims are quite different. But there are some commonalities and I hope that other gay people will chime in with their take on the subject.

Gay people tend to be dysfunctional and self-destructive. From the rates of STDs to shallow relationships to chemical dependency, the statistics are pretty ugly. But it isn't because they are gay, it is because they grew up and live in a homophobic world.

We are taught from an early age that homosexuals are hell borne abominations. We are sex-crazed fools who don't care about anything but lust. We really ought to drink ourselves to death, because we cannot possibly have a good life. Decent Christian folks cannot stand to have us around because we are a danger to the children. They will help along to hell, if they get a chance, because gay people are so disgusting that even God Hates F-gs. Who wouldn't want to beaten up with a tire iron if it gave them a chance to repent their evil ways and go to Heaven? We should be grateful that Christians love us enough to take that risk! And then we realize, "OMG, I am one of 'those people'.

That usually happens around adolescence. You know, the most angst and insecurity ridden part of most people's lives? When you really don't know who you are or what you should do? Who can you turn to, when telling anybody is tantamount to admitting that you are the scum of the earth TO YOURSELF! You know that admitting gay feelings, even to yourself, makes you an evil person the world is better off without. Nobody can help you. You can't trust anybody, not even yourself.

Combine ingredients, turn burner up to HIGH, simmer until age 18, dump out on floor.

Putting people by the million through this process results in millions of people who are severely damaged in ways that aren't going to fixed by some Christian telling us "Jesus Loves You". It will result in a whole sub-culture of people who don't care what society thinks is good and "moral", they mostly just care about dick, looks, stuff and how to get more of them. Morality was closed off to them when they were little kids by the Christians who run things.

Homophobes are the ones who cause the problems amongst gay people by saying things like @1robin says. Not that he is unusual, as we all know. It is everywhere here in the USA where I live, and much worse in many other places.

If you want to stop gay people from indulging in self-destructive and socially destructive behavior you have to stop trashing their lives from the time they are little kids. You have to start treating homosexuality as a harmless quirk and not as choosing God's(and society's) wrath because we prefer sin.


Tom

Norman: I believe that same sex attraction people should not be harassed, bullied, discrimitized with employment, housing and no violence towards them. I believe we need to love them. Having same sex attraction is not the sin, acting upon it is the sin according to my belief’s and in the belief’s of my church.

Tom: “You have to start treating homosexuality as a harmless quirk and not as choosing God's(and society's) wrath because we prefer sin.”

Norman: With all due respect Tom we cannot take “God” out of homosexuality. No, you should not have to suffer as, you stated “society’s wrath.” In my opinion homosexuality as you stated a “harmless quirk” is just the opposite, a “harmful quirk.” Society has Core ethical values, just to name a few, Honesty, Integrity, Respect, Fairness and Responsibility. I believe whole heartedly in these five ethical values. These should be attributed to all, even homosexual people. It seems to me that the omphalos of your statement is that society as a whole should look upon homosexuality as harmless.

Tom: “But it isn't because they are gay, it is because they grew up and live in a homophobic world.”

Norman: My response to your comment above is from one of my church leaders. “This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal, and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable.
Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic.” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful. Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach.” (You can read more at my church's website) Interview With Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: “Same-Gender Attraction”


Norman: People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are.(Gordon B. Hinckley)What Are People Asking about Us? - Gordon B. Hinckley

Norman: My church has also created a new website to help members of our church as well as non-members if they choose to read the website.http://mormonsandgays.org/

Norman: Another leader of my church had this to say. Dallin H. Oaks has observed, “Tolerance does not require abandoning one’s standards or one’s opinions on political or public policy choices. Tolerance is a way of reacting to diversity, not a command to insulate it from examination. I would apply this also to the gay community.

Norman: "As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender http://mormonsandgays.org/

Norman: No one fully knows the root causes of same-sex attraction. Each experience is different. Latter-day Saints recognize the enormous complexity of this matter. We simply don’t have all the answers. Attraction to those of the same sex, however, should not be viewed as a disease or illness. We must not judge anyone for the feelings they experience. Members of the Church who have same-sex attractions, but don’t act on them, can continue to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple. Unlike in times past, the Church does not necessarily advise those with same-sex attraction to
marry those of the opposite sex. Same-sex attraction itself is not a sin, but yielding to it is. However, through repentance Jesus Christ will offer forgiveness. http://mormonsandgays.org/

Norman: Tom, I have two friends that are gay, I love them both very much, they know where I come from and I know where they come from. This has not altered our friendship in anyway. I prefer to build bridges of understanding in the gay community instead of burning bridges of understanding in the gay community.

 

[columbus]

Your Church is one of the worst Norman. The hypocrisy is astounding. Complaining of being silenced when you spend millions of tax deductible donations influencing elections in California makes me angry.

Tom

 

[Thana]

I am not going to try to speak for all homosexuals. I am a white gay man, born and raised in the USA, in an extremely ordinary suburban Christian family. That is what I know. I believe that the human experiences of other gay people, including women, Russians, and Muslims are quite different. But there are some commonalities and I hope that other gay people will chime in with their take on the subject.

Gay people tend to be dysfunctional and self-destructive. From the rates of STDs to shallow relationships to chemical dependency, the statistics are pretty ugly. But it isn't because they are gay, it is because they grew up and live in a homophobic world.

We are taught from an early age that homosexuals are hell borne abominations. We are sex-crazed fools who don't care about anything but lust. We really ought to drink ourselves to death, because we cannot possibly have a good life. Decent Christian folks cannot stand to have us around because we are a danger to the children. They will help along to hell, if they get a chance, because gay people are so disgusting that even God Hates F-gs. Who wouldn't want to beaten up with a tire iron if it gave them a chance to repent their evil ways and go to Heaven? We should be grateful that Christians love us enough to take that risk! And then we realize, "OMG, I am one of 'those people'.

That usually happens around adolescence. You know, the most angst and insecurity ridden part of most people's lives? When you really don't know who you are or what you should do? Who can you turn to, when telling anybody is tantamount to admitting that you are the scum of the earth TO YOURSELF! You know that admitting gay feelings, even to yourself, makes you an evil person the world is better off without. Nobody can help you. You can't trust anybody, not even yourself.

Combine ingredients, turn burner up to HIGH, simmer until age 18, dump out on floor.

Putting people by the million through this process results in millions of people who are severely damaged in ways that aren't going to fixed by some Christian telling us "Jesus Loves You". It will result in a whole sub-culture of people who don't care what society thinks is good and "moral", they mostly just care about dick, looks, stuff and how to get more of them. Morality was closed off to them when they were little kids by the Christians who run things.

Homophobes are the ones who cause the problems amongst gay people by saying things like @1robin says. Not that he is unusual, as we all know. It is everywhere here in the USA where I live, and much worse in many other places.

If you want to stop gay people from indulging in self-destructive and socially destructive behavior you have to stop trashing their lives from the time they are little kids. You have to start treating homosexuality as a harmless quirk and not as choosing God's(and society's) wrath because we prefer sin.


Tom

Is it really like that in America? I mean, I'm just finding it difficult to believe that a country that has most states allowing Gay marriage would be so homophobic? Here in Australia we don't have gay marriage but gay people have all the same rights as straight people in and out of relationships, And we don't generally care much about homosexuals. Atleast that's my experience. Gay people walk around together comfortably and no one gives them a second look.

I do believe that Christians need to remember the greatest commandment given to us, That is to love one another, And that the bible says that if you hate your brother than you hate God. But really, I think homophobic Christians just use Christianity as a shield to justify their prejudices and no amount of education is going to change that.

But I cannot let it slide that you would blame homophobes on the choices you've made. Everyone in life suffers, Everyone in life gets beat down and persecuted but that doesn't take away our choices. Everyone has a choice, To do the right thing or the wrong thing. To forgive or to hold a grudge. So you cannot blame homophobes for the actions of homosexuals.

 

[Noel]

On my behalf, I personally am quite ashamed of the way most christian churches treat gay people, Jesus christ literally says in his bible to love everyone, and I don't really know you, or much about you, but God created you, your gay and he loves you. Don't let others tell you your going to hell, or that God hates you, because thats stupid, Jesus died for everyone, no matter their sin, people just over exaggerate homosexuality because their afraid of people really understanding and seeing their sins. Rock on man, and know that I love you (don't know you, but you seem cool) and that Jesus loves you.

 

[Storm]

Is it really like that in America? I mean, I'm just finding it difficult to believe that a country that has most states allowing Gay marriage would be so homophobic?

I don't doubt that you do.

Here in Australia we don't have gay marriage but gay people have all the same rights as straight people in and out of relationships,

Not if they aren't allowed to marry.

And we don't generally care much about homosexuals. Atleast that's my experience. Gay people walk around together comfortably and no one gives them a second look.

Then why can't they get married?

But I cannot let it slide that you would blame homophobes on the choices you've made.

1) It's a very obvious cause to anyone who knows the first thing about human development.
2) Why do you assume that any of the issues he mentions are things he personally struggles with?

Everyone in life suffers, Everyone in life gets beat down and persecuted but that doesn't take away our choices. Everyone has a choice, To do the right thing or the wrong thing. To forgive or to hold a grudge. So you cannot blame homophobes for the actions of homosexuals.

Thank you for the demonstration of soft bigotry and privilege.

Not everyone has to worry about being assaulted, killed, or disowned simply for what they are. That's why persecution is understood to be separate from general life suckitude.

 

[Thana]

Then why can't they get married?

Dunno, It's just never been changed I suppose.
I know they don't have equality in the sense of marriage, What I meant is that they're recognized as couples and get the taxes and benefits associated with that.

1) It's a very obvious cause to anyone who knows the first thing about human development.
2) Why do you assume that any of the issues he mentions are things he personally struggles with?

Seems pretty obvious, He's not speaking for all gay people so he's speaking for himself? An assumption I suppose but seems to fit unless I'm told otherwise.

Thank you for the demonstration of soft bigotry and privilege.

Not everyone has to worry about being assaulted, killed, or disowned simply for what they are. That's why persecution is understood to be separate from general life suckitude.

I'm not a bigot, Soft or hard. Priviledged yes, But not ignorant. I understand that other people struggle to get what comes freely to me. But I also don't think that because I live where I do or am who I am that I don't understand pain or fear or self-hatred or self-pity. We all know and have experienced awful things. To want someone to recognize that they don't have to go down the wrong path because of their pain isn't being bigoted, It's being honest. We all have choices and our bad choices can't be blamed on anyone but ourselves, generally.

Persecution isn't seperate from general life suckitude since almost everyone at some point in their life experiences it, Whether it's because of their gender, their race, their sexuality or their religion.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Humans cause the problems, not specific groups.

While I have nothing against homosexual people or their rights, I am concerned when people think attacking homophobia will help at all. It's best to think of homophobia as a bee hive, and shaking it does no good. The only way we'll ever see equality is when we all put down our guns and notice that the battle is, and always has been, about who has more ammo.


I have no idea how hard it must be for someone to grow up and being in relationships that are completely kept private so they wont be judged. For someone to having to go to prom and not express their love as much as the heteros get to. For someone who has no idea who else is like them - not being sure who to flirt with because it's dangerous. If they're not like you, and catch on to what you're doing, there's a chance they could scar your reputation.

I've known people in real life that are this way. I've gone to school with them, talked to them. Some of them I never would've guessed were gay until they told me. In fact, when I was in my immature middle-school age, I had a friend that I'd call gay jokingly, and he laughed along. Once I hit high school it turns out he was gay. My guilt bottles up to this day about it: I made fun of a homosexual person right to their face without even knowing it!

But at the same time, I've met people who truly believed gay was immoral sexual conduct. There is so much opposition to this opinion that some of these people are ashamed of it. Some people aren't homophobic, but are either Christian or Conservative, or both, but felt afraid to call themselves either of the two because those labels are both stereotyped as homophobic.

Fighting only makes the wounds deeper. What people need to start doing is bandaging each other up.

 

[Storm]

Dunno, It's just never been changed I suppose.
I know they don't have equality in the sense of marriage, What I meant is that they're recognized as couples and get the taxes and benefits associated with that.

Seems pretty obvious, He's not speaking for all gay people so he's speaking for himself? An assumption I suppose but seems to fit unless I'm told otherwise.

Except for the fact that he was obviously, explicitly listing trends, not commenting on personal experience.

I'm not a bigot, Soft or hard. Priviledged yes, But not ignorant.

Sorry, you already demonstrated otherwise.

But I also don't think that because I live where I do or am who I am that I don't understand pain or fear or self-hatred or self-pity.

Nobody didn't. But you clearly don't understand persecution.

We all know and have experienced awful things. To want someone to recognize that they don't have to go down the wrong path because of their pain isn't being bigoted, It's being honest.

Victim blaming is altogether a different thing, though. And what you just did was victim blaming in its purest form.

We all have choices and our bad choices can't be blamed on anyone but ourselves, generally.

Self serving oversimplification.

Persecution isn't seperate from general life suckitude since almost everyone at some point in their life experiences it, Whether it's because of their gender, their race, their sexuality or their religion.

Outright falsehood. Whether it's due to dishonesty or sincere ignorance, I don't care.

 

[Storm]

Humans cause the problems, not specific groups.

While I have nothing against homosexual people or their rights, I am concerned when people think attacking homophobia will help at all. It's best to think of homophobia as a bee hive, and shaking it does no good. The only way we'll ever see equality is when we all put down our guns and notice that the battle is, and always has been, about who has more ammo.


I have no idea how hard it must be for someone to grow up and being in relationships that are completely kept private so they wont be judged. For someone to having to go to prom and not express their love as much as the heteros get to. For someone who has no idea who else is like them - not being sure who to flirt with because it's dangerous. If they're not like you, and catch on to what you're doing, there's a chance they could scar your reputation.

I've known people in real life that are this way. I've gone to school with them, talked to them. Some of them I never would've guessed were gay until they told me. In fact, when I was in my immature middle-school age, I had a friend that I'd call gay jokingly, and he laughed along. Once I hit high school it turns out he was gay. My guilt bottles up to this day about it: I made fun of a homosexual person right to their face without even knowing it!

But at the same time, I've met people who truly believed gay was immoral sexual conduct. There is so much opposition to this opinion that some of these people are ashamed of it. Some people aren't homophobic, but are either Christian or Conservative, or both, but felt afraid to call themselves either of the two because those labels are both stereotyped as homophobic.

Fighting only makes the wounds deeper. What people need to start doing is bandaging each other up.

Screw that. Placating these people only makes them more vicious. Telling the people they delight in hurting to not fight back is obscene.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We are taught from an early age that homosexuals are hell borne abominations.

Gay people suffer enough discrimination as it is, and it disgusts me that so-called Christians add to it.

 

[Thana]

Except for the fact that he was obviously, explicitly listing trends, not commenting on personal experience.

Sorry, you already demonstrated otherwise.

Nobody didn't. But you clearly don't understand persecution.

Victim blaming is altogether a different thing, though. And what you just did was victim blaming in its purest form.

Self serving oversimplification.

Outright falsehood. Whether it's due to dishonesty or sincere ignorance, I don't care.

Your argument is that I'm wrong, But you've not refuted anything I've said other than to call me dishonest or bigoted or priviledged or ignorant.

That's not a debate, That's an attack, so I don't know what more I can say.

Other than I wasn't victim blaming, Simply saying that being a victim doesn't mean you can destroy your life and then blame it on circumstances or people. We are responsible for ourselves and our actions, No matter who you are and no matter what you've suffered.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Simply saying that being a victim doesn't mean you can destroy your life and then blame it on circumstances or people.

Sure, but what we can all do is ensure that we don't victimise anyone else.

 

[Estro Felino]

Let's be honest. Homophobia means not to take homosexuality seriously.
and why don't people take homosexuality seriously?
why do people think it's a choice?

because lots of straight men...(even married people) have occasional sex with gays.
because they are lustful beings. Because straight sex for them is not enough and they want to try something new.
that's squalid.

so...when straight people start being coherent and less perverted, real gays will be taken seriously.
In other words: there are gays who were born gay and straight people that have gay sex our of lust

 

[SomeRandom]

Dunno, It's just never been changed I suppose.
I know they don't have equality in the sense of marriage, What I meant is that they're recognized as couples and get the taxes and benefits associated with that..

No, they have all the benefits up till Common Law couples. That's not the same as being recognized and given the same taxes and benefits of Married Couples. I mean sure, I have never once heard even a whisper of someone being denied access to a dying/sick/injured loved one because they were gay, which is what I see on various Articles from the US. But come on. Different but equal doesn't work, even if it's with the best intentions.

And I have seen homophobia first hand during High School. Now Aussie Schools aren't nearly as "Clique-y" as how American Schools are shown. People just hang out with people, there wasn't really some weird strict hierarchy or whatever. But I have still had more than once nurse the wounds of my gay friends.

But you are right. Even in Queensland, said to be one of the most Conservative States, I haven't really seen or indirectly experienced Homophobia outside of High School. Most people seem to be indifferent.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

because lots of straight men...(even married people) have occasional sex with gays.

Yes, and I think that's more common than most people like to admit.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Your Church is one of the worst Norman. The hypocrisy is astounding. Complaining of being silenced when you spend millions of tax deductible donations influencing elections in California makes me angry.

Tom

The idea that there's a religious institution encouraging people to go from door to door spreading such ignorant nonsense is even scarier. It is like saying "We don't hate black people or harm them; we just don't accept that the black lifestyle is normal or accept that what is not normal is normal. We still respect black people despite our views concerning their lifestyle." And we're supposed to view that as tolerance, not ignorant bigotry.

The double standards and outright hypocrisy are ridiculous.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The double standards and outright hypocrisy are ridiculous.

Yes, it's like saying "Gay sex is an abomination, but we don't condemn gays", which I translate as "I have a prejudice but like to dress it up in case people think I'm just a bigot".
Shallow rhetoric which fools nobody.

It reminds me of a great line from a film called The Outlaw Josey Wales:
"Don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining."