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Hitchens was wildly overrated as a thinker/debater

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Craig has already logically dismantled the entire platform upon which Hitchens worldview rests.
Logical fallacy, "argument by assertion".
Merely asserting your claim true does not make it so.
You can give no logical reasons or evidence to prove your claim is true. You merely believing your hero does not make his claims valid.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Almost as if Johnny Logic can't provide a simple, straightforward answer to a direct, simple question.

Your claim has been proven wrong in post #278.

You therefore demonstrate you are a bad judge of circumstances and character.

Honesty, integrity, and relevant/valid evidence trumps phony 'logic' claims all day. And we see where the bible defender lands on the issue.

Logical fallacy, "argument by assertion" and "ad hominem"
You cannot point to anything in have said and give any logically valid reason to prove your claims are true that anything I have posted supposedly lacks honesty, integrity, evidence, or uses fallacous logic.
Merely asserting it is so doesn't make it true just because you assert it is so.

As such, your baseless accusation is merely a base ad hominem. You're slandering with namecalling because you can't win the debate on the merits of your ideas and logic.


Wow...
Talk about crappy "logic."

No actual evidence, just dopey claims of 'logic' produce absurd conclusions like that.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion and ad hominem.
You cannot give any logical reason why any of the logic I used is supposedly faulty or poor in any way.
Merely asserting it doesn't make it true just because you assert it is so.

Because your accusation is baseless, it amounts to nothing more than you calling an argument names because you can't provide a valid logical counter argument against it - which is a type of ad hominem fallacy.

Go back to your appeal to false authority

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion.
You cannot quote and logical demonstrate your claim is true that I supposedly committed any fallacy of appeal to false authority.
Merely asserting it is true doesn't make it so just because you assert it is so.

and false claims of 'logical fallacies' to prop up your failing beliefs.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion.
You cannot quote and logically demonstrate your claim is true that any of the fallacies I have pointed out were in error.
Merely asserting it is true doesn't make it true just because you assert it is.

I do hope you will one day address your rather naïve take on genetics, but I'm starting to lose hope...:cool:

Logical fallacy, red herring.
Being unable to defend your arguments in this thread or refute my arguments you are instead trying to change the topic.

Merely asserting that I have committed any fallacy of assertion doesn't make it true just because you assert it is true. Projection. Failure to admit own shortcomings. Hiding behindf wall of nonsense.

Your claim is demonstrably false.
Because I gave a logical reason for my conclusion.

What I said:

Merely asserting that I have committed any fallacy of assertion doesn't make it true just because you assert it is true.

You cannot quote a single thing in this thread that would be a fallacy of assertion, much less support your claim that you think it's my "primary form" of argument.


The reason you committed a fallacy of assertion was because you gave no support for your claim but merely asserted it is true without support.

"I believe such a singularity event would be compatible with the Genesis account of creation."

You have failed to quote something that would qualify as a fallacy of assertion. For two reasons.

1. I said "I believe ..." which means I am explaining my perspective but not making a provable claim to truth.

2. Even if you wanted to dispute whether or not it counts as a claim, you left out quoting the parts where I gave my reasons for why I believed a singularity event would be compatible with the Genesis account. So by definition my statement can't qualify as an argument by assertion because I gave supporting reasons for my conclusion.

What I said:

His argument is sound. The evidence shows there was a singularity event that created the universe from nothing. I believe such a singularity event would be compatible with the Genesis account of creation.

The exact dating doesn’t actually matter with regards to proving God exists. The fact that the evidence points to a singular creation event is sufficient enough to prove God’s existence, regardless of the actual dating one believes should be attached to that event.

Some creation scholars and scientists dispute the common ages given for the universe. They think it’s younger.
I have not studied it enough yet to have a firm conclusion on the matter. Some Bible scholars have differing ways of interpreting Genesis that would make it compatible with an old universe age but a short age for life on earth. But I am skeptical of engaging in stretches of the text to make them fit certain ideas which may later prove to be wrong. Because there are many cases where Christianity has tried to distort the Bible text to fit the conclusions of the science of the day only for later more accurate science to actually prove the original narrative of the Bible already reflected what was true all along.

So, although I am open to considering differing interpretations of Genesis 1 as a possibility, I am skeptical of any interpretation that goes too far out of bounds from the text.


The supportive reasons are bolded.

You are so boring.

Logical fallacy, Ad Hominem.
Being unable to refute my arguments or defend your own, you have nothing left but to fall back on namecalling.

Pity you have nothing but assertions and whining.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion.
You cannot prove your claim is true by quoting even a single fallacy of assertion I have supposedly committed in this thread, much less demonstrate it happening multiple times to establish your claim that it's supposedly all I have.
Merely asserting it is true doesn't prove it's true just because you assert it is.

You are also engaging in the psychological behavior of projection by accusing me of that which you are actually doing.
In what I have quoted alone you have committed the fallacy of assertion on 7 different points, ad hominem 3 times, and a red herring fallacy.

It would therefore be factually accurate to say the overwhelming majority of the content of your post is nothing but either fallacious arguments by assertions or other fallacies.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
You claimed I said Craig "established" the historicity of the New Testament.

No, I didn't. Do try to read carefully.


In your post #247 you made this assertion...(my red emphasis)

Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically

I've asked several times for you to specify who had "established the historicity of the New Testament." You keep ducking and dodging. In your latest duck and dodge, you accused me of claiming 'Craig "established" the historicity of the New Testament". Of course, you didn't bother to quote the post in which I allegedly did that. You didn't because you couldn't because there is no such comment on my part. For someone who is always yammering about people making unsubstantiated assertions, you should be ashamed of doing the same thing.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
You claimed I said Craig "established" the historicity of the New Testament.
No, I didn't. Do try to read carefully.

***MOD EDIT***
In Post #273 you claimed I said the New Testament historicity was established:
Craig, shmaig. Who established the "Historicity of the New Testament". You made the statement it was established. Was that just your opinion?

But I never said the historicity of the New Testament was established in this thread. You can't quote anywhere that I did.

In your post #247 you made this assertion...(my red emphasis)

I've asked several times for you to specify who had "established the historicity of the New Testament." You keep ducking and dodging. In your latest duck and dodge, you accused me of claiming 'Craig "established" the historicity of the New Testament". Of course, you didn't bother to quote the post in which I allegedly did that. You didn't because you couldn't because there is no such comment on my part. For someone who is always yammering about people making unsubstantiated assertions, you should be ashamed of doing the same thing.

Logical fallacy, "argument by repetition" and "failure to meet the burden of rejoinder".

I already explained in post #278 why your claim was false with logical reasons and evidence.
You haven't attempted to give a counter argument to any of my arguments or evidence.

Merely repeating your refuted arguments doesn't make them stop being refuted just because you repeat them.

By being unwilling or unable to offer counter arguments to my arguments, you are have failed to meet your burden of rejoinder. Which means you have tacitly conceded the debate by being unwilling to meet the requirements of engaging in a debate.



I will repost it again or you if you want to try to offer a logically valid counter argument:


You claimed I said Craig "established" the historicity of the New Testament.
But I said no such thing in what you are quoting.

I said that it was not even necessary for Craig to establish the historicity of the New Testament in order to disprove Hitchens' position of atheism if he has already proven the first three arguments are true and they go unrefuted by Hitchens.

There is nothing in my statement that claims Craig did establish the historicity of the New Testament. Nothing in my statement even implies or assumes he did. It says simply that it would not be necessary for him to even do so.

I have therefore above proved you were wrong to falsely claim I was dodging anything. You simply had poor reading comprehension and didn't listen to the first time I tried to point out why you were wrong.



But you won't be able to offer a valid counter argument because your claim was false.
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
"Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically"

Hilarious!

"Self evident experience".... man, that is something else.... A super low bar for the god stuff, it seems...
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You posted...
Post #247 (my red emphasis)
Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically,
I responded, asking...
"Historicity of the New Testament"? When was that established?
You deflected...
I didn't say Craig established it. I said he argued for it.
I responded to your deflection and asked again Who established...
Post #273
Craig, shmaig. Who established the "Historicity of the New Testament". You made the statement it was established. Was that just your opinion?

Now you accuse me of lying...
You are lying.
In Post #273 you claimed I said the New Testament historicity was established:

See your comment in post # 247 at the top of this rebuttal. See the part in red.

You need to be really careful with the accusations of lying. Especially since I did not lie as anyone can plainly see. I'm not going to report you. I very rarely do that.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You posted...
Post #247 (my red emphasis)

I responded, asking...

You deflected...

I responded to your deflection and asked again Who established...
Post #273


Now you accuse me of lying...


See your comment in post # 247 at the top of this rebuttal. See the part in red.

You need to be really careful with the accusations of lying. Especially since I did not lie as anyone can plainly see. I'm not going to report you. I very rarely do that.
Do you think it is possible to find a creationist that does NOT engage in this sort of thing? Denying their own words is a classic. Almost as common as plagiarism.
 
Watch his debate with William Lane Craig.

You’ll notice that throughout the entire debate he really doesn't even attempt to present a real logical argument of his own that God doesn’t exist. He also never even tries to dispute Craig’s logical arguments for why God does exist. You can't present an argument that something "doesn't exist", when in fact it's never been proven to exist. As far as Craig's "arguments", it was the Cosmological argument, which is basically "The universe had a beginning, it's complex, it can't have been natural, therefore god". It's not actually a logical argument at all, it's the fallacy of argument from ignorance. Hitchens did address this though by saying that science points to a natural origin and that every time science makes a discovery, religion either denies it outright, or absorbs it into the dogma. He said with the cosmological argument specifically, that it wasn't falsifiable. That is true.

So what does Hitchens fill all his time doing? Trying to slander God’s character by calling God’s behavior bad or pointing to bad things and blaming God for it. It’s the logical fallacy equivalent of an ad hominem. That makes up basically the entirety of Hitchens time. Which logically has nothing to do with disproving God’s existence even if you assumed the slander were true. He did spend quite a bit of time slandering what the bible says about "god's character", because it is important to point to the idea that we are a special creation of this god. The idea being that the entirety of creation was created with us in mind, which is not a humble concept. Also speaking to the mentality of believers to look past all of the bad and just look upon the world with rose colored glasses. Again, you can't disprove something that is a negative to begin with. It's like trying to disprove that a virus killed someone, when there's no evidence of a virus, no body to examine, just a claim by someone. It's not the burden of the skeptic going "So where's the body for me to examine?" to disprove that the claim is untrue, it's on the claimant to provide the evidence. Otherwise, the claim will likely be dismissed.

I think the only reason he had gotten away with that for so long and gained admiration for it is because the eloquent manner in which he speaks makes him sound far smarter and more poignant than what the logical substance of his argument actually is.

This exposes the root of what I have noticed with most militant atheists - their objection to God is not based on logic, but anger. Anger at God. They don’t want to believe He is real, not because the evidence is in their favor but because they don’t like Him or don’t like the implications of His reality being true. There's nothing "angry" about Hitch. This is a common misrepresentation by christians that is dishonest. Any and all critiques of the bible, or the "character of god", even if biblically accurate, are dismissed and the atheist is called "angry". We can't be angry at something that we do not believe in, that doesn't make any sense and calling out the "character of god" as evil, or bad, isn't anger, it's a critique that is either valid or invalid. If it is invalid, then it should be easy to attach the argument and not the person. It's ironic that you call him out for an ad hominem...then commit it yourself. You might want to actually listen to his arguments in the future and be more honest about your critique, because he did directly counter Craigs arguments.

Hitchens displays unbridled anger and resentment at God, but puts forth no logical arguments or counter arguments against the reality of His existence.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. If the claim flies in the face of well understood science (for example), the default position shouldn't be "I don't know". For example, if I say invisible fire breathing dragons the size of elephants exist in my backyard, you are already 99.99% certain I am incorrect. A) There is no evidence of the existence of any fire breathing dragons. B) There is no evidence of any other animals that breath fire. C) There is no evidence that any living animals the size of elephants have the ability to become invisible, or any other animals for that matter. In this example, I believe the default position has to be that they do not exist until sufficient evidence proves otherwise. To say you don't know, would mean you are unaware that fire breathing and invisibility in large animals has never been proven in any way, and that it's just as likely to be true as them not existing.

Your analogy is a fallacy of false equivalence with regards to what hitchens was required to show.

Because Craig did provide positive evidence and arguments for the existence of God. You therefore cannot claim atheism is a default position in light of those arguments.

If you want to continue to be an atheist you are first required to refute those arguments or disprove that evidence.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I rest my case.
I'm going to slip into a coma now.

Logical fallacy, failure of the burden of rejoinder and argument by assertion.

Merely asserting by implication your case is proven doesn't make it so just because you assert it.
You cannot provide arguments or evidence that has not been refuted to prove your claims are true. Nor can you offer valid counter arguments in defense of your claims.

By failing to offer counter arguments in defense of your arguments, you have failed your logical burden of rejoinder.

If you are unwilling to meet your burden of rejoinder then you have tacitly conceded the debate.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
@ecco

I am adding in my the quotes into your quote in italics so it will be easier to track with what was being said and claimed:

You posted...
Post #247 (my red emphasis)

Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically,

I responded, asking...

"Historicity of the New Testament"? When was that established?

You deflected...

I didn't say Craig established it. I said he argued for it.

I responded to your deflection and asked again Who established...
Post #273

Craig, shmaig. Who established the "Historicity of the New Testament". You made the statement it was established. Was that just your opinion?
Now you accuse me of lying..
.

In Post #273 you claimed I said the New Testament historicity was established:
See your comment in post # 247 at the top of this rebuttal. See the part in red.

You need to be really careful with the accusations of lying. Especially since I did not lie as anyone can plainly see. I'm not going to report you. I very rarely do that.

You are falsely claiming I claimed the historicity of the new testament was established - even though it should be plain to you by now your claim is not true.

It is very plain in your own quote of me that I was not saying that it was established, but was saying that Craig did not need to establish it in order to prove his general arguments about theism are true.

I don't know how to make this any easier for you to understand than I already have.

Let's look at what you are quoting as proof of your claim:
Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically,

Do we need to break this down fragment by fragment for you? I suppose we do:

Without even needing to get into the arguments:


This is me saying that we don't even need to talk about this argument.

about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically,

This is me specifying what argument we don't need to talk about: the historicity of the new testament.

Put them together and what does that mean? It says we don't need to argue about whether or not the new testament is true in order for Craig's arguments to refute hitchens.


You also were engaging in wrong behavior by cutting my quote in half where there is a comma - not even waiting for the period. Which would add important context to what I said and why I said it.

I will provide the context you keep leaving out:

Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically, Craig has already logically dismantled the entire platform upon which Hitchens worldview rests. And with that being done, Hitchens has no basis from which to attack theism as untrue. Nor does his undermined platform even get him a reasonable basis from which to attack Christianity specifically as an untrue type of theism.

Here it should be very clear to you that the reason I am saying Craig does not need to talk about the historicity of the new testament in order to disprove Hitchen's is because Craig's other arguments already prove general theism and therefore disprove atheism.


That is why you are completely failing to comprehend what you are reading from me in the most basic way possible; and I don't know how to help you comprehend what I said anymore than I already have because there's no way for me to say it anymore simply to you than I already have.

That is why I had previously assumed you must be being dishonest at this point because I simply don't see how you can so completely fail to comprehend what I said to you after repeated attempts to explain this to you in simple terms.

Rather than assume you are being dishonest, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and instead assume you simply more confused than I have ever seen someone be here. I will therefore try to help you by giving you the most simplistic analogy I can so that may help you understand why you are so completely failing to understand what I said at a most basic level:

I said "Craig doesn't need to even bother proving if the ball is red because the other things he said already prove hitchens is wrong."

You demand I give proof for my claim that the ball is red

I ask why should I have to do that? Because I never claimed the ball was red.

You respond: "no no, you did claim the ball is red, here's a quote"

You quote me saying Craig didn't need to prove the ball is red for his argument to be right.
That is obviously not me claiming the ball is red.

You respond; "no, but it is!"

And I'm like, look, I don't know how to make this anymore plain to you - it says right in what you are quoting that I am clearly not making a claim about what color the ball is but I am simply saying there is no need to talk about the ball's color in order for Craig's claim to be right.

If you can't see that I am not making an assertion about the ball being red in that simple short quote, even after I explain why, then I don't know what else can be done to help you comprehend what you are reading.

It just escapes me as to why this is so difficult for you to process when I am trying to make it so easy for you.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
"Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically"

Hilarious!

"Self evident experience".... man, that is something else.... A super low bar for the god stuff, it seems...

Logical fallacy, appeal to mockery.

You don't attempt to make any logical argument against anything I said.

Being unable to do so, you can only fall back on ad hominems.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
No logic in your child-like grasp of genetics. You are too afraid of being refuted on facts - that is why you hide out here in the opinion-based threads like a spoiled boy.

So does this mean you concede that your understanding of the "genetic code" and genetics in general are that of a middle schooler's?
That is what I conclude - but doubtless you will wait a while and make the same silly claims. All creationists engage in such antics.
You seem to suffer far too much from the Dunning-Kruger effect to be taken seriously on fact-based discussions - especially when you employ the logical fallacies that you hide behind when accusing others of using them. You just cannot handle that you do not know as much as you think you do.

Sad what religionism does to people.

Logical fallacy, red herring and ad hominem.

Trying to change the topic, and stringing personal attacks in there, doesn't change the fact that were engaged in a fallacy of mockery because you cannot refute any of my arguments in this thread using logical arguments.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Your analogy is a fallacy of false equivalence with regards to what hitchens was required to show.

Because Craig did provide positive evidence and arguments for the existence of God. You therefore cannot claim atheism is a default position in light of those arguments.

If you want to continue to be an atheist you are first required to refute those arguments or disprove that evidence.


Nonsense. You guys are the ones supporting the concepts of the actual existence of supernatural entities. The burden is not on our shoulders to prove there are no supernatural entities. The burden is on your shoulders to prove there are.

Should I expect you to disprove the Tooth Fairy? If you want to support belief in the Tooth Fairy, it is your burden to show that the Tooth Fairy actually exists.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
@ecco

I am adding in my the quotes into your quote in italics so it will be easier to track with what was being said and claimed:



You are falsely claiming I claimed the historicity of the new testament was established - even though it should be plain to you by now your claim is not true.

It is very plain in your own quote of me that I was not saying that it was established, but was saying that Craig did not need to establish it in order to prove his general arguments about theism are true.

I don't know how to make this any easier for you to understand than I already have.

Let's look at what you are quoting as proof of your claim:
Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically,

Do we need to break this down fragment by fragment for you? I suppose we do:

Without even needing to get into the arguments:


This is me saying that we don't even need to talk about this argument.

about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically,

This is me specifying what argument we don't need to talk about: the historicity of the new testament.

Put them together and what does that mean? It says we don't need to argue about whether or not the new testament is true in order for Craig's arguments to refute hitchens.


You also were engaging in wrong behavior by cutting my quote in half where there is a comma - not even waiting for the period. Which would add important context to what I said and why I said it.

I will provide the context you keep leaving out:

Without even needing to get into the arguments about self evident experience and the historicity of the New Testament as evidence for Christianity specifically, Craig has already logically dismantled the entire platform upon which Hitchens worldview rests. And with that being done, Hitchens has no basis from which to attack theism as untrue. Nor does his undermined platform even get him a reasonable basis from which to attack Christianity specifically as an untrue type of theism.

Here it should be very clear to you that the reason I am saying Craig does not need to talk about the historicity of the new testament in order to disprove Hitchen's is because Craig's other arguments already prove general theism and therefore disprove atheism.


That is why you are completely failing to comprehend what you are reading from me in the most basic way possible; and I don't know how to help you comprehend what I said anymore than I already have because there's no way for me to say it anymore simply to you than I already have.

That is why I had previously assumed you must be being dishonest at this point because I simply don't see how you can so completely fail to comprehend what I said to you after repeated attempts to explain this to you in simple terms.

Rather than assume you are being dishonest, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and instead assume you simply more confused than I have ever seen someone be here. I will therefore try to help you by giving you the most simplistic analogy I can so that may help you understand why you are so completely failing to understand what I said at a most basic level:

I said "Craig doesn't need to even bother proving if the ball is red because the other things he said already prove hitchens is wrong."

You demand I give proof for my claim that the ball is red

I ask why should I have to do that? Because I never claimed the ball was red.

You respond: "no no, you did claim the ball is red, here's a quote"

You quote me saying Craig didn't need to prove the ball is red for his argument to be right.
That is obviously not me claiming the ball is red.

You respond; "no, but it is!"

And I'm like, look, I don't know how to make this anymore plain to you - it says right in what you are quoting that I am clearly not making a claim about what color the ball is but I am simply saying there is no need to talk about the ball's color in order for Craig's claim to be right.

If you can't see that I am not making an assertion about the ball being red in that simple short quote, even after I explain why, then I don't know what else can be done to help you comprehend what you are reading.

It just escapes me as to why this is so difficult for you to process when I am trying to make it so easy for you.


I hope you enjoyed wasting your time by writing that long post. I have not bothered to read it. That topic has been hashed and rehashed . I'm done with it.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I don’t watch video debates between atheists and theists, because I don’t like wasting my times in watching videos. I am just not interested.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
You can't present an argument that something "doesn't exist", when in fact it's never been proven to exist.

...


Again, you can't disprove something that is a negative to begin with. It's like trying to disprove that a virus killed someone, when there's no evidence of a virus, no body to examine, just a claim by someone. It's not the burden of the skeptic going "So where's the body for me to examine?" to disprove that the claim is untrue, it's on the claimant to provide the evidence. Otherwise, the claim will likely be dismissed.

Your claim is false. Craig has erected a positive case for belief in theism which means that Hitchens bears the burden of having to refute Craig's arguments if he wants to claim Craig's conclusion isn't true.

In the absence of Hitchens doing that, or erecting his own case for materialism that would be superior, we are forced to conclude that theism is a better and more likely explanation for reality than atheism.
lieve God exists.

As far as Craig's "arguments", it was the Cosmological argument,

Your claim is false.
Craig had three arguments for general Abrahamic theism and two arguments for Christianity specifically.

1. The cosmological argument.
2. The teleological.argument.
3. The moral argument.
4. Evidence for the historical reliability of the New Testament.
5. Personal experience - proper basic belief.

which is basically "The universe had a beginning, it's complex, it can't have been natural, therefore god".

You show that you either don't understand the cosmological argument at all or you are committing a gross strawman fallacy.

The fact that you throw in the phrase "it's complex" also suggests you are confusing the cosmological and teleological argument as the same.

The cosmological argument is based on proving the following premises and conclusions:
1. That the universe had a beginning.
2. That the universe needs a cause.
3. That the cause can only be uncaused and timeless if we are to avoid an impossible infinite regress.
4. That past eternal universes are logically impossible.
5. That it is logically impossible for materialism to provide an uncaused and timeless cause for the universe.

What you also probably don't understand is that the cosmological argument is not meant by itself to prove God exists.

The cosmological argument is only meant to establish that there was a cause to the universe that had to be both uncaused and timeless and why materialism cannot possibly provide an answer for such a thing.

It is the teleological and moral arguments which establish for us that this uncaused and timeless cause must be a personal being with a mind.


It's not actually a logical argument at all, it's the fallacy of argument from ignorance.

Your claim is false.
Craig's argument is a form called "Inference to the best explanation".

It is a method of scientific explanation that is used in any field of science that cannot directly observe things so we must make an inference to the best explanation of what could have caused what we are seeing by appealing to how we currently know things work.

Craig gives positive reasons to shows how a personal being with a mind is a better way of explaining what we see in reality and gives specific reasons why materialism cannot explain what we see.

His conclusion is therefore proven correct that basically says "theism is a better way to explain reality than atheism, based on what we currently know about reality".

Hitchens did address this though by saying that science points to a natural origin

...

You might want to actually listen to his arguments in the future and be more honest about your critique, because he did directly counter Craigs arguments.

You can't point to a single argument hitchens made that refuted the validity of Craig's first three arguments which establish theism is more likely true than atheism.

Hitchens did not even try to argue against points 1 and 2 as far as I recall.

Vague statements like "science points to a natural origin" don't prove anything about any particular point Craig made.

You are committing the fallacy of assertion by merely asserting that hitchens disproved Craig's arguments without being able to give a single example of such a thing supposedly happening.

and that every time science makes a discovery, religion either denies it outright, or absorbs it into the dogma.

Your statement is the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.

Whether or not religions have ever changed what they believe based on science doesn't prove any of Craig's first three arguments are logically invalid or factually untrue.

Those three arguments demonstrate that theism explains what we see but materialism can't.

He said with the cosmological argument specifically, that it wasn't falsifiable. That is true.

Your statement doesn't even make sense. It seems you don't understand the difference between a scientific theory and a deductive logical argument.

falsifiable - capable of being tested (verified or falsified) by experiment or observation

Deductive reasoning, or deductive logic, is a type of argument used in both academia and everyday life. Also known as deduction, the process involves following one or more factual statements (i.e. premises) through to their logical conclusion. In a deductive argument, if all the premises are true, and the terms correctly applied, then it holds that the conclusion will also be true.


Cosmological argument:
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2. The universe began to exist.
2.1 Argument from the impossibility of an actual infinite
2.11 An actual infinite cannot exist.
2.12 An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
2.13 Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exit.
2.2 Argument from the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition
2.21 A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
2.22 The temporal series of events is a collection formed by successive addition.
2.23 Therefore, the temporal series of events cannot be an actual infinite.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.



A deductive logical argument doesn't have to be "falsifiable" to be valid.

If the premises are true then the conclusion is true.

The only question is are the premises true?
Craig showed why they are. Hitchens didn't try to dispute it.

He did spend quite a bit of time slandering what the bible says about "god's character", because it is important to point to the idea that we are a special creation of this god. The idea being that the entirety of creation was created with us in mind, which is not a humble concept.

Your statement is the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.

Your opinion about the humbleness of the Biblical narrative has no bearing on doing anything to disprove the validity of Craig's arguments for theism.

Also speaking to the mentality of believers to look past all of the bad and just look upon the world with rose colored glasses.

Fallacy of irrelevant conclusion again.

Whether or not you think believers look at anything with rose colored glasses doesn't do anything to disprove the validity of Craig's arguments for theism.

There's nothing "angry" about Hitch. This is a common misrepresentation by christians that is dishonest. Any and all critiques of the bible, or the "character of god", even if biblically accurate, are dismissed and the atheist is called "angry". We can't be angry at something that we do not believe in, that doesn't make any sense and calling out the "character of god" as evil, or bad, isn't anger, it's a critique that is either valid or invalid. If it is invalid, then it should be easy to attach the argument and not the person. It's ironic that you call him out for an ad hominem...then commit it yourself.

If you don't see the disgust, resentment, and bitterness in Hitchens voice and demeaner when talking about God in the Bible then I can't help you see it.

That's a lot of emotion over a being you claim to not believe in.

I have never seen anyone get emotional like that when talking about how bad the greek/roman gods, or the mayan gods, etc.
You probably haven't either.
They talk about them as though they are fiction. They are dispassionate by default.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Hitchens was wildly overrated as a thinker/debater."
How does it matter if Hitchens was over-rated or under-rated? I am an atheist but I have read absolutely nothing written by Dawkins, Hitchens or any other Western atheist (barring a small books of essays by Bertrand Russell). My atheism originates from ancient Hindu philosophy (Advaita - non-duality).
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I hope you enjoyed wasting your time by writing that long post. I have not bothered to read it. That topic has been hashed and rehashed . I'm done with it.

By being unwilling to meet your burden of rejoinder to offer a counter argument in defense of your refuted claims you have conceded the debate.

You are not able to defend your claim any longer because it is plainly obvious now you misunderstood or misrepresented what I said.

You're now trying to bow out without having to admit you were wrong.
 
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