[Hindus Only] Question for Hindus

[jac515]

Hello, my religious perspective could be described as pantheistic, polytheistic, animistic, and even in a way monotheistic. I am not going to explain completely. Anyway, various aspects of Hinduism appeal to me very much. The idea of Bhraman to me seems self evident; I have also had visions of Hindu gods who's names I do not know while using visionary sacraments (I believe any more detail would violate forum rules). My understanding of the gods is that they are aspects of or manifestations of But on the other hand, I have heard it described as duty to accept your lot in life, and as the basis of the Caste system. Basically, this interpretation sounds like it can be used as a justification for oppressing certain groups of people; lower castes (or in capitalist countries other than India the poor classes) have a duty to play the role they were born into, and they were born into such low status as punishment misdeeds in past lives. To me, this sounds wrong. I would like to know how Indian Hindus actually understand the concept of Dharma, and what it means for how people should live and treat others. Thank you.


--Jesse Clark

 

[Terese]

Hello Jesse. For Hindus, the concept of dharma is of right living. What you are saying, about the 'lower class' is overly simplified and wrong. If you accumulate bad karma, You are at risk of reincarnating in an unfortunate position, for the benefit of realisation. The fact you are human is a great gift, however poor or disabled, you have the capability to attain moksha. There is no role, and the current cast system is a corrupted form of the original one. It's not like the feudal system. From what I know, you can go up or down classes. I'd love to hear the godly experiences you had!

 

[jac515]

Thank you for your reply! So can someone in a low caste move up during their life time? The experiences I have had with gods have occurred after consuming "hallucinogens"/entheogens. I have been warned that discussing such things on these forms is a violation of the rules, but I would be happy to discuss this with you in private massage or email.

 

[Terese]

I would not call taking 'psychedelics' a real experience of God, more like your brain adapting to the chemicals. But yes, pm me, I'd like to know. You will have to wait for a reply who is more knowledgable of the caste system than me. I don't live in India, nor am I Indian. Why do you care about these casts? They are societal only, not God ordained.

 

[Madhuri]

I'm also not an Indian Hindu though I am born into the religion (am European). That is perhaps why I can confidently say that castism is a cultural development and should not be interpreted as a status one cannot move away from. I also believe that castes will become less relevant to Hindus in the future and we can see the newer generations of Hindus just don't care as much (especially those not brought up in India).

In other words, I would never base my opinion or belief in Hinduism on the existence of castism in Indian culture.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So can someone in a low caste move up during their life time? The experiences I have had with gods have occurred after consuming "hallucinogens"/entheogens. I have been warned that discussing such things on these forms is a violation of the rules, but I would be happy to discuss this with you in private massage or email.

Jesse, you need to know that 'caste'/'jati' is an old/outdated concept and that discrimination based on caste is illegal in India and punishable by a sojourn in jail. There is no bar in India on a person belonging to any caste or religion to further his/her studies, take up any job or profession and attain any position in government. The Indian Constitution provides for strong affirmative action in case of people belonging to caste which were considered lower at one time. The caste restrictions are now dissolving and a large number of inter-caste marriages are taking place in India. For example, none of the four daughters-in-law in my extended family belong to our own caste. Even our current prime minister, Narendra Modi does not belong to a so-called higher caste. Hindus strongly advice against use of mind-changing hallucinogens/entheogens, mind and thinking being our most valuable assets. Decent questions are not unwelcome in Hinduism forum.

 

[ShivaFan]

I wrote a long (perhaps too long) explanation of "caste", jatil, gotra etc from a historical context on another forum... perhaps too long, actually, and it wasn't specific to "caste" but delved into some other historical aspects such as invasions, disease and such ... instead of repeating it, it might be of interest to the OP, not sure if this is allowed but here is the link to that post (I am also known as "Brahma's Fifth Head" instead of ShivaFan on other places):

http://www.thehinduforum.com/posts/3871/

Let us just put it this way - what some call caste while using it to misrepresent varna is actually jati (the birth based system where your specific profession can only be what your father's was, e.g. if your father was a rag picker than you can only be a rag picker) is total b.s. of caste extremists, and varna is simply a description of the basic divisions of society in a broad sense viz priests, warriors-soldiers-police-royals, business men-farmers-traders, workers-labourers, these four are found pretty much ever since the first city-states were established all over the world and while you may inherent some skills from your parents, these four categories are based on gunas that is character and characteristics not birth-specific, certainly none of this is a race. In regards to karma, there is karma that extends to a next birth but there is also instant karma that can happen in the very next hour and need not wait for a birth. This can be good or bad. A God can make you a World Conquerer or a Great Siddhi (mystic or almost magic powers) the next second based on something you do, a priest can fall to be a murderous tyrant or become a perverted freak all in the same day, or a dog eater could find a devotee of pure heart and become a Swan Teacher... not birth, this can happen in a single life.

Caste is actially jati - which is not the Vedas. Before the British came to India, but after the Buddha, there were about 300 jati (birth based profession - this was created during times of high stress in society,, invasions, wars, to protect "self interest" from foreigners, invaders, other villagers fleeing into your village or province while running from the plague or armies, others tried to protect their own "jobs" during times of limited resources which were threatened and so on.

Later, the British expanded 300 jati to OVER 6000 JATI as part of "managed production" methods and divide and rule... almost all jati were British instigated and invented. It has zero to do with race. Varna of Veda is not jati. Also, gotra is not race, it is tribes, regional community and clans, it is more about geography than anything else, like saying "I am Texan" or "I am Bostonian" or New York, or am "A Johnson" or a "Baldwin" and such.

It is amazing how ignorant caste extremists are.

By the way, what are "entheogens"? Be careful. I knew some ISKCON members who (these were only a few, they were also rejected from ISKCON) who started following a popular "leader" who was taking LSD and then engaging in "kirtans" under this drug...

... he got others involved. I kid you not, this led to them KILLING others, they even went insane and using a blunt knife beheaded their own "leader". One of the "devotees" was found out of his mind, sitting on a bloody floor holding the other guys head in his lap and arms and talking to it when the police arrived.

If you describe any God or Goddess you truthfully had a vision of and not imagined, in detail, I can probably tell you Who the God is.

There ARE true visions or seeing. I have had them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If there is a question about caste, let Hindus answer it. Why should non-Hindus interject? You can surely visit any section but Hinduism DIR rules do not allow non-Hindus abuse and explanations on their behalf. Non-Hindus can only ask respectable questions if they have any.

 

[निताइ dasa]

The caste system is a degradation of the original principles of Varnashrama Dharma as described in Scriptures. No-one is born into a Varna (Caste) (as @ShivaFan has said) but accepts one in accordance with their qualities (guna) and actions (karma) which will allow them to perform certain tasks and duties in society. The proof for this is everywhere in scripture. Lord Krsna says in Gita 4.13

"catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam"

"The four Varnas (Brahmin, Kshastriya, Vaishya and Sudra) are created by Me, and are determined by one's qualities and actions. Although I am the creator of this system, know Me to be non-doer, who is unchangeable"

"yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ
puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiśet"

"If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification" (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.35)

Furthermore, in Vedic society, in order to keep the balance of power, each Varna was in charge of one source of power. The Brahmans had knowledge (of Karma Khanda-Vedic Sacrifices) and hence they were considered the spiritual guides of society, as they would lead society in the correct direction according to scripture. The Kshatriyas had weapons (and military), and hence they were the leaders (Kings and Queens) responsible for administration and dispensation of justice. The Vaisya were given the wealth, and hence they were in merchants, in charge of the regulation of economy and trade. The Sudras had land, and hence they were manual labourers and farmers. No Varna is lower than the other in the spiritual sense (though there was a clear ranking of authority), because the Vedas understood that every living being is the spirit soul, not the body. The aim of the Varnashrama system was not for society to grow and revolutionize, but to create a stable environement where people could easily maintain their bodies and hence focus their lives on spiritual goals. Ultimately this system is useless if it does not create an attachment to the Lotus feet of Lord Hari, as put by Sutadeva Goswami:

"dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed yadi ratiṁ
śrama eva hi kevalam"

"The occupational activities (dharma) one performs according to their own position are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of Lord Visvaksena (Sri Hari)" Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.8

Nitai!

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram jesse ji

Hello, my religious perspective could be described as pantheistic, polytheistic, animistic, and even in a way monotheistic. I am not going to explain completely. Anyway, various aspects of Hinduism appeal to me very much. The idea of Bhraman to me seems self evident; I have also had visions of Hindu gods who's names I do not know while using visionary sacraments (I believe any more detail would violate forum rules). My understanding of the gods is that they are aspects of or manifestations of But on the other hand, I have heard it described as duty to accept your lot in life, and as the basis of the Caste system. Basically, this interpretation sounds like it can be used as a justification for oppressing certain groups of people; lower castes (or in capitalist countries other than India the poor classes) have a duty to play the role they were born into, and they were born into such low status as punishment misdeeds in past lives. To me, this sounds wrong. I would like to know how Indian Hindus actually understand the concept of Dharma, and what it means for how people should live and treat others. Thank you.


--Jesse Clark

To first adress the system of Caste , ...
the Caste system if used opressively is adharmic , ....(against Dharma)....and whilst one could say that the caste system restricts ones freedom , ...in truth none of us are free we all have resopncibilities towords eachother as a balanced society is like one big family there must allways be someone who is trained to take responcibility , ..there must allways be a father and a mother and they are trained by their own parents and given the wisdom to look after their own offspring, ...but of course one has to do ones duty lovingly , ..the ruling clas should not take advantage of their subjects , their duty is to care for them , likewise the preistly caste is there to look after the spiritual wellbeing of the society and to advise the rulling classes as to what is just and to support them in their decission making , ...the merchant classes are there to work in between the farming and labouring classes ensuring that their goods can be fairly distributed amongst this class are the artists and craftsmen who provide services , all of these jati train their own ofspring in their own profession thus if the system is uphel as it was intended it provides work for all , ...

where this system falls down or fell down is where personal greed or hunger for position crept in , ...Krsna explains in the Gita that it is better to do your own work even if one does it imperfectly than it is to do another persons duty , ...
if this is done society will support it self nicely everyone will respect each others position , ...
however if any one of the ruling or merchant class abuse their position they will bring hatred and suspicion upon them selves , ...if the Bhramins do not act equaly to all they will dishonour to the entire religion , ...thus if the three higher classes do not behave prefectly , if they cheat and abuse the working classes there will be poverty , unhappiness and unrest , .....

Thus this system is supposed to provide for the wellbeing of all if it is adhered to as prescribed and kept in acordance with Dharma all can live happily accepting their position and their responcibility with grace , ...but if it is abused as it has been over the centuries then it will as has happened , ..Fall down , ...

to address the other issue of mind altering substances , ...., ..the aim of any religion is to develop a Love of God and an ability to live well with respect for others , ..having a vission of an unknown God may well inspire one to explore a religion more , but it canot be relied upon in any way , ...what a sincere Sadhaka strives for is oneness with God in every aspect of his life , thus it is generaly considered that mind altering substances are unhelpfull if not obstructructive , ...thus any one on any path of realisation generaly stays away from all intoxicants even coffe and tea , ....

How should we treat others ? ...as we ourselves would like to be treated , ..with fairness and respect , .....our aim is to see the divine aspect of all life , ...and to love eachother as we love God , ....

 

[Madhuri]

Caste is our Inditity, it's our Race, it's our ethnicity.

Like you said, caste = / = religion

Luckily with the loss of caste does not come loss of Hindu religion as these are separate things.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aryans did not have a caste system. They had the four 'varna' system - Brahmins, kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. The Zoroastrians also have it. The caste system is indigenous to India depending upon languages, beliefs, professions, regions, traditions, food, etc. When the two systems merged, the castes were adjusted into the 'varna' system. So, now we have a double classification. For example - Varna: brahmin, Caste: Gaur Saraswat brahmins (that probably means the brahmins from the valley of River Saraswati who moved eastwards towards Bengal. If I could say Varna is the label, caste is the description.

Yes, all religions in India have castes whether Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Jain or Buddhists. I do not know about Jews and Zoroastrians.

 

[atanu]

..... I have heard it described as duty to accept your lot in life, and as the basis of the Caste system. Basically, this interpretation sounds like it can be used as a justification for oppressing certain groups of people; lower castes (or in capitalist countries other than India the poor classes) have a duty to play the role they were born into, and they were born into such low status as punishment misdeeds in past lives. To me, this sounds wrong. I would like to know how Indian Hindus actually understand the concept of Dharma, and what it means for how people should live and treat others. Thank you.
--Jesse Clark

This gives me an opportunity to note my understanding of the issue.

1. The word 'varNa' was used in scripture to depict 4 types of mental tendencies. Today some people equate 'varNa' with jAti or kUla, which indicate station of birth and are somewhat equivalent of 'Caste'. 'Varna', on the other hand, primarily means veil and covering, as shown from Cologne Digital dictionary:

varNa m. (or n. g. %{ardharcA7di} , prob. fr. 1. %{vR} ; ifc. f. %{A}) a covering , cloak , mantle L.; a cover , lid Ya1jn5. iii , 99 ; outward appearance , exterior, form, figure, shape, colour ......

Hinduism holds that the essential self (atman-soul) in all of us is of the nature of Supreme truth, called Supreme Self or Supreme Brahman. But each one of us, unless Self Realised, associates the self with the body-mind and functions in this existential plane as a limited body bound living being. The quality (colour) of 'varna' (veil) determines our nature at a point of time. Through spiritual practice the veil becomes more and more transparent and the reality of a non dual Self (Soul) that pervades all forms become realised and the awareness attached to an ego body form is detached and the cyclic re-birth stops.

'Varna' is mainly determined by one's nature and by one's works. It is true that the combined effect of one's nature and one's works determines the station of birth also. And once a station of birth is obtained, scriptures prescribe appropriate mode of living that helps to free the bonded mind and render it free. This guidance is optional and not mandatory. Following a prescribed path is easy but one is free to pursue other vocations as well. There are many examples of such in Upanishads and other scriptures. The story of Satyakama -- who did not know his father but was still initiated into priesthood because he was truthful -- is an example. No doubt there are also stories depicting how some persons were obstructed when they wanted to pursue some calling not conforming to their varna at the time. This often happened to stop undue powers falling unto unripe-immature persons.

2. When we judge others, usually we see things in negative light. Within same group also one can see that a person tries to point out fault elsewhere rather than within. The universe actually runs based on such dialectical interactions: 'You and Me' and "Us and Them'. On the contrary, Hinduism teaches that such apparent 'You and Me' divisions are arbitrary and unreal in truth.

Towards this, Gita teaches:
Sages see the selfsame thing (sama) in a Brahmana (priest) with learning and humility, as in a cow or elephant, also in a dog,
or even an outcast. (5.18)

He, whose self is integrated in yoga, sees the Self abiding in all beings, and
all beings in the Self, seeing the same everywhere. (6.29)

So, it is far from the truth that Hindu dharma teaches any discrimination. Rather just the opposite -- sage is one who sees the same Self everywhere.

3. catur-varnyam maya srishtam
guna-karma-vibhagashah “According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me.” (4.13)

In Gita, Shri Krishna says that He himself is the author of the four varna-s, grouped as per the nature and work of an individual. If a person is a true follower of Hindu religion, will that person oppress so-called other varna people? I do not think so. Purusha suktam of Rig Veda states that the four varna are different body parts of Purusha Himself. So, again those who abide by dharma will not oppress people of other varna because all varna-s originate from God.

4. Just as we tend to judge others harshly, we also tend to judge self leniently. Surely, everyone perceives opposition from other individuals, other groups, and other castes. But actually such perceived obstructions are projections of one's mind.

The knowledge of varna, should actually help one to understand the nature of things and own up responsibility for one's station in life and not blame others. IMO, that is what the teaching of varna Is. It teaches how we are responsible for our own state of affairs and what we need to do to come out of the bondage.

Further, the works prescribed for different varna people are different, suitable for different mentalities and abilities. But the goal for all is lofty -- to prepare our mind to soaring heights when the following will be true.

He, whose self is integrated in yoga, sees the Self abiding in all beings, and
all beings in the Self, seeing the same everywhere. (6.29)

 

[kalyan]

Aryans did not have a caste system. They had the four 'varna' system - Brahmins, kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. The Zoroastrians also have it. The caste system is indigenous to India depending upon languages, beliefs, professions, regions, traditions, food, etc. When the two systems merged, the castes were adjusted into the 'varna' system. So, now we have a double classification. For example - Varna: brahmin, Caste: Gaur Saraswat brahmins (that probably means the brahmins from the valley of River Saraswati who moved eastwards towards Bengal. If I could say Varna is the label, caste is the description.

aup- you should stop with the aryan myth-------there are no aryans, none whatsoever, the rishis who used to revise their present based on their thinking of past and present are called aryas (from the sanskrit dhatu-aarath) -----It has been long proved that aryan migration is a myth injected by britishers and you took that poison to heart.

 

[kalyan]

Hello Jesse. For Hindus, the concept of dharma is of right living. What you are saying, about the 'lower class' is overly simplified and wrong. If you accumulate bad karma, You are at risk of reincarnating in an unfortunate position, for the benefit of realisation. The fact you are human is a great gift, however poor or disabled, you have the capability to attain moksha. There is no role, and the current cast system is a corrupted form of the original one. It's not like the feudal system. From what I know, you can go up or down classes. I'd love to hear the godly experiences you had!

+100, wow, could not have said it better and how nicely put, it is said that the past samskaaras or past records drive us..In some birth, you might have been definitely bhAratiya . I also want to mention that, this is is the exact path what Ramanujaacharya showed us, this is how bhakti/prema spread, take Ramanuja out of equation and then we would even not know such a thing as bhakti exists and would have never possessed a shred of knowledge about tattvam.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Friend, I am a historian's grandson, this is what he taught me in my younger years, I cannot deny/falsify history.

And I do not understand why it bothers people! What is wrong with migrants accepting the ways of the land and getting assimilated? That is what happened to Aryans and many other migrants to India from East or West (there was an equally large migration of people in India from the East also).

And also there is nothing wrong with local population accepting things from the migrants. After partition of India the character of Delhi has changed. It has become Punjabi and relishes tandoori chicken and chhole-bhature. Similarly, who does not like Dosa, Vada and Sambhar in Delhi? Or for that matter Dhokla and Rashogollah? Or pizza or chow mein?

 

[Terese]

+100, wow, could not have said it better and how nicely put, it is said that the past samskaaras or past records drive us..In some birth, you might have been definitely bhAratiya . I also want to mention that, this is is the exact path what Ramanujaacharya showed us, this is how bhakti/prema spread, take Ramanuja out of equation and then we would even not know such a thing as bhakti exists and would have never possessed a shred of knowledge about tattvam.

Thank you Kalyan

 

[ShivaFan]

Actually, I am not a Gaudiya, but I might know enough that may be a point of view of one sect of Gaudiya pertinent to this subject, viz caste, which again is not varna but caste is this modern jati nonsense (in my "opinion") that is not in the Vedas either.

But it is something which is interesting, they speak of a "new caste". Now I am a Saiva, but I am also a Hindu and I find this interesting, it might be interesting to others as well. By the way, I am going to mention Vrindavan, India, not that it matters but yes I have been there, I do know something of which I found out about this "new caste". It has to do with this certain Gaudiya sect of Hinduism. ISKCON for example derives from it.

In this other sect of Gaudiya, Krishna's girlfriend was Radha, the peasant cow girl of the pastures.

The "pastures" in this language which sometimes is called The Twilight Language, is "Braj" - The Pastures. But in this sect, when one hears Braj, they think of Krishna. Because in these leelas or "playtimes", this entire realm of Vrindavin, Mathura and beyond are the "pastures" or the land of Krishna and the Cowherd Boys and Girls, viz Braj.

The Residents of Braj are called Brijwasi, Americans say "Brija-ba-sees".

Being the girlfriend of Krishna, then it doesn't matter if you are a peasant cow girl. So then even a Vaishya (farmer) girl, this Radha, suddenly is now a Rani, a Queen. In one leela, Radha is now Radharani, Queen Radha, and has gone from a Vaishya to a Kshatriya in a "wink". Just because.

And now, She is the Queen of Braj.
She is the Queen of The Pastures.

All the Brijabasees are Her subjects. She is the Queen, and they are all Her subjects.

In this sect, a "new caste" was "created". None of them are Sudra, Vaishya, Kshatriya or Brahmin, instead this "new caste" is devotees, servants, the subjects of The Rani.

In this new hierarchy, anyone born in Vrindavan for example is a Brijabasee. This is higher. From then, until even now, they are all special. How long this will be, who knows. But only the very special are born a Brijabasee which is now the "new caste", the highest of them all.

Even a leper is higher than a Brahmin. If born a Brijabasee. Then you are Brijabasee. The highest.

So that is why for example you had Prabhupad, who was a subsect of this wsy, who came to Amedica, who said, "...if you American boy goes to Vrindavan, you must first give worship to the Brijabasees. There is no other caste. There are those who are Them, and those who are not."

What does this mean. It means once you go to Braj, there are Brajabasees, the highest "caste", you must give them "special respect". Then you will get a blessing. Then you will get to be with the subjects of the Queen. Who is Krishna's girlfriend. The peasant cow girl Queen of Braj.

Then you will see Vrindavan. Otherwise YOU WILL NOT SEE even if you are there. Then you will hear. The Twilight Language. Then you will smell. The electric smell. Then you will taste. The nectar. Then you will feel. The devotion.

That means even if they are a leper, or an "outcaste", or anything, if they are HIV, or gay, or not gay, or a Muslim, or a Christian, or a Hindu, or whatever, if they are born there, then there must be a reason.

So treat them very special. Because they are the new caste. The highest caste. Where no one is any other caste. But a Brijabasee.

You may not agree with this sect. But millions do. You might be outnumbered. Big numbers doesn't mean one is correct. But you probably won't fit in. You will be an outcaste in Braj. Not because you are an untouchable. But simply because you won't even SEE Vrindavan, even if you are there. Thus "caste out". You never entered it. Never entered the Pastures of Krishna. Even if you are there. Oddly, you will still be blessed. But blind, also. A blindman may get a dime for a pencil. But maybe not draw. Maybe you shouldn't go to the Pastures of Krishna at all. You might insult Radha. Which wouldn't be a very good idea. At least, according to this sect.

But it is only one sect of many. In Hinduism.

 

[kalyan]

Friend, I am a historian's grandson, this is what he taught me in my younger years, I cannot deny/falsify history.

And I do not understand why it bothers people! What is wrong with migrants accepting the ways of the land and getting assimilated? That is what happened to Aryans and many other migrants to India from East or West (there was an equally large migration of people in India from the East also).

And also there is nothing wrong with local population accepting things from the migrants. After partition of India the character of Delhi has changed. It has become Punjabi and relishes tandoori chicken and chhole-bhature. Similarly, who does not like Dosa, Vada and Sambhar in Delhi? Or for that matter Dhokla and Rashogollah?

aupji, history has not started with your grandfather...It's much bigger than that..Just based on someone's word, we cannot twist the history...There are much bigger historians who confirmed this theory is a complete myth. There is no migration, there was no such concept of anything recorded in any of our scriptures. You know that there used to be a big land below Tamila nadu called Kumari Kandam which used to connect South Africa to Australia which got submerged? well it is said that this is all recorded in tamil pallava scriptures...Either it should have been recorded or confirmed by prominent historians, the aryan myth does not fall into either...Because of knowledge contained in the vedam, the max mueller along with other sheep injected this myth, as to why, just to say that some outsider gave knowledge to bharat...Many are still not coming out of this programmed mindset, just like when I say 'Please abandon or reduce the usage of english language' and introduce 'Sanskrit' as the first language, I would receive a total backslash because the mindset of indians have been programmed to the lowest possible levels.

 

[kalyan]

Actually, I am not a Gaudiya, but I might know enough that may be a point of view of one sect of Gaudiya pertinent to this subject, viz caste, which again is not varna but caste is this modern jati nonsense (in my "opinion") that is not in the Vedas either.

But it is something which is interesting, they speak of a "new caste". Now I am a Saiva, but I am also a Hindu and I find this interesting, it might be interesting to others as well. By the way, I am going to mention Vrindavan, India, not that it matters but yes I have been there, I do know something of which I found out about this "new caste". It has to do with this certain Gaudiya sect of Hinduism. ISKCON for example derives from it.

In this other sect of Gaudiya, Krishna's girlfriend was Radha, the peasant cow girl of the pastures.

The "pastures" in this language which sometimes is called The Twilight Language, is "Braj" - The Pastures. But in this sect, when one hears Braj, they think of Krishna. Because in these leelas or "playtimes", this entire realm of Vrindavin, Mathura and beyond are the "pastures" or the land of Krishna and the Cowherd Boys and Girls, viz Braj.

The Residents of Braj are called Brijwasi, Americans say "Brija-ba-sees".

Being the girlfriend of Krishna, then it doesn't matter if you are a peasant cow girl. So then even a Vaishya (farmer) girl, this Radha, suddenly is now a Rani, a Queen. In one leela, Radha is now Radharani, Queen Radha, and has gone from a Vaishya to a Kshatriya in a "wink". Just because.

And now, She is the Queen of Braj.
She is the Queen of The Pastures.

All the Brijabasees are Her subjects. She is the Queen, and they are all Her subjects.

In this sect, a "new caste" was "created". None of them are Sudra, Vaishya, Kshatriya or Brahmin, instead this "new caste" is devotees, servants, the subjects of The Rani.

In this new hierarchy, anyone born in Vrindavan for example is a Brijabasee. This is higher. From then, until even now, they are all special. How long this will be, who knows. But only the very special are born a Brijabasee which is now the "new caste", the highest of them all.

Even a leper is higher than a Brahmin. If born a Brijabasee. Then you are Brijabasee. The highest.

So that is why for example you had Prabhupad, who was a subsect of this wsy, who came to Amedica, who said, "...if you American boy goes to Vrindavan, you must first give worship to the Brijabasees. There is no other caste. There are those who are Them, and those who are not."

What does this mean. It means once you go to Braj, there are Brajabasees, the highest "caste", you must give them "special respect". Then you will get a blessing. Then you will get to be with the subjects of the Queen. Who is Krishna's girlfriend. The peasant cow girl Queen of Braj.

Then you will see Vrindavan. Otherwise YOU WILL NOT SEE even if you are there. Then you will hear. The Twilight Language. Then you will smell. The electric smell. Then you will taste. The nectar. Then you will feel. The devotion.

That means even if they are a leper, or an "outcaste", or anything, if they are HIV, or gay, or not gay, or a Muslim, or a Christian, or a Hindu, or whatever, if they are born there, then there must be a reason.

So treat them very special. Because they are the new caste. The highest caste. Where no one is any other caste. But a Brijabasee.

You may not agree with this sect. But millions do. You might be outnumbered. Big numbers doesn't mean one is correct. But you probably won't fit in. You will be an outcaste in Braj. Not because you are an untouchable. But simply because you won't even SEE Vrindavan, even if you are there. Thus "caste out". You never entered it. Never entered the Pastures of Krishna. Even if you are there. Oddly, you will still be blessed. But blind, also. A blindman may get a dime for a pencil. But maybe not draw. Maybe you shouldn't go to the Pastures of Krishna at all. You might insult Radha. Which wouldn't be a very good idea. At least, according to this sect.

But it is only one sect of many. In Hinduism.

Yes you have established one case, I would establish another reason.

previously there used to be 4.
1. Brahmins (high) 2. Kshatriyas 3. Vaisyas 4. Sudras


Due to some social reformist fools trying to get rid of the caste system, failed and instead helped in creating more castes. This is their fault, the fake social reformists. Why can't just accept these 4 established castes and move on....... Brahmins are undoubtedly high in their birth(their voice ability to chant veda mantras is exquisite) , but all are equal in eyes of god and once you are born here in this earth, it depends all on the karma you do. A sudra should not come and say, I will wear yagnopavitham (sacred thread that brahmin wears) and perform the priest's job in a temple with veda mantras. That is complete blasphemy. Nowadays we hear this feminine movements as why they can't be priests in temples...oh god! Each sect has their karma established that they should do but not interfere with other sect's karma. That way everyone remains peaceful and no further castes arise and as Terese said "The fact that you are human is the great thing, poor or rich", use that and move forward.