Hindus & Buddhists: Why we should not kneel to God

[psychoslice]

I suspect that sometimes people find it easier to project out what-ever-it-is, think of it as something "out there". Maybe they don't know how to find it inside?

maybe yes, maybe not ?.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Moko kahan dhundhe re bande, main to tere pas mein - Kabir
(Where are you serching for me, I am here with you)

Moko kahan dhoondhe re bande, Main to tere paas mein
Na teerath mein na moorat mein, Na kanth niwas mein
Na mandir mein na masjid main, Na Kabe Kailas mein
Na main jap mein na main tap mein, Na main barat upaas mein
Na main kiriya karam mein rehata, Na hi jog sanyas mein
Na hi pran mein na hi pind mein, Na bramhand aakaash mein
Na main prakrati pravar gufa mein, Sab swason ki saans mein
Khoji hoye turat mil jaoon, Ek pal ki taalas mein
Kehat Kabir suno bhai saadho, Main to hoon vishvas mein

Where are you serching for me, I am here with you,
Neither in the place of pilgrimage nor in the idol, nor in the beads that you wear around your neck,
Neither in a temple nor in a mosque, neither in Holy Kaba nor in Mount Kailas,
Neither in chanting the name nor in austerities, neither in vows nor in fasts,
I neither live in rituals, nor in ascetism or renunciation,
Neither in the soul nor in the body, nor too in the sky,
Neither in live in nature nor in caves, I live in all breaths,
Search for me there I will be found quickly, within a moment of search,
O people, listen! says Kabir, I am in your belief.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram RamaRaksha ji

As for Surrender - looks like we are totally different in our outlook - I was greatly influenced by the episode where Arjuna and Duryodhana go to God Krishna to beseech him for his help and he refuses to fight and says he will only advice and instruct - just as a Teacher would - to me he was talking to all of us - we need to ask God for advice and instruction but the battles of life are ours to fight -

Agreed yes , ...Gita tells us things on many levels , ..yes you must do your own Dharma , ...your own duty , ..it is not Krsna's position to do it for you , ...but also the Gita is very clever here there are many levels on which this can be veiwed , ...in Mahabarata both go to Krsna to ask for his support , ...Krsna's action is very clever , ...he asks Duryodhana and and Arjuna to choose between himself or his army who will take the support of Krsna , who will take Krsna's mighty army , ....Krsna knew out of love and loyalty that Arjuna would choose Krsna himself and that Dhurodhana thinking materaily would be happy to take the might of Krsna's army , .....all the way through the Gita it self Arjuna is taking the advice of Sri Krsna , but also meaasge of the Gita is that we are not this body we are Jiv atma , ....so all idea of the battles of this life are mere illusion , what appears to be a battle what appears to be a personal problem , ..everything is overcome with the wisdom of this simple knowledge , ...

Kurukshetra that Arjuna fought - happens within all of us - we have problems in life that we must fight and overcome

yes yes , battle between material illusion and understanding of our true reality , ...

and i fear you are running away from life and hoping God will give you an easy life - that's where the Saranam word comes in - no i do not surrender, i do not ask God Rama for Saranam - instead i ask my Rama for Enlightenment - just as the Buddha once did - enlightenment so that i may follow in his footsteps - make this a better world, become a better person

no I am not running away , I am learning to face reality , .....when say Saranagati , when I say Saranam this surrender is surender of ignorance , ....if you do not surrender ignorance what room is there for Knowledge , ...when Saranagati is going for or asking for protection , it is asking for the wisdom that protects us from ignorance

...here you speak of Buddha , ...His mantra from the Heart sutra , ....TaYaTa Om Gate Gate Para Gate Para Sam Gate Bodhi Soha. ...this same Gate Gati in sanskrit is the act or atainment of going beyond worldly perception , ...so Saranagati going for protestion is the seeking of wisdom that enlightens that takes us from worldly and bodily conceptions to the realisation of our true nature , ...so to throw our bodies on the floor infront of God is no more than saying , ...this body is inconsequential by comparison to the realisation of our true nature and our eternal relationship to God , .....the humility of surrender is only the first step in this pricess of rising above bodily and worldly conception , .....

As for kneeling i already told you - you are taking a picture drawn by someone way too seriously - do you not have any independent thoughts? The concept of Caste - one of the most evil ones - came from Hindus also. At one time women who lost their husbands, were burnt alive! Other women couldn't remarry - that's Hindus also.
There are a lot of problems in Hinduism and we are not going to solve any of them if you blindly follow whatever is written or painted in this instance ,

yes , agreed Concept of Caste as it has been missconstrued and as it is now practiced is an abomination brought about by Worldly and Bodily conception of life , ....it is pure ignorance , ..all are Jiv atma this is why before I said to you there is hell yes but it is here now , ..Hell is Ignorance and the suffering caused by Ignorance , ...similarly Heaven exists also here right now in the minds of more realised Human beings , ..Heaven is the Bliss of Knowledge , ...

The Painter was not wrong - YOU are! The Painter lived in a different time - a time when Kings ruled - there was no democracy - it was a Top-down society - the King basically decided how his subjects lived - the people looked to the king to give them the good life & that is what the painter painted - his view of God Rama as a King
But as i have written God Rama never viewed Hanuman as a servant - he looked at him as his own son - Mother Sita did the same

When Rama ruled it was rightious rule , ....now you think we have democracy ? ...but this is a big illusion democracy would be wonderfull if all were as enlightened as Ram then there would be true fairness, but democracy in this Kaliyuga is only a sham , it is the Ignorant fighting to fullfill only their material needs which they are hapy to do at the expence of others , ...this is not Dharma , ...

Amazing that you call yourself a devotee of God Rama, yet you discard how he viewed God Hanuman and take the view of a lowly painter?

how Rama veiwed Hanuman ji has no bearing upon how Hanuman ji chooses to pay his respects to Ramaof course Rama loved Hanuman ji as a brother , ...but this does not prevent hanuman ji paying his respects to Sri Rama , there is no shame in paying ones respects to God , ...

As for Bharata - there is no evidence that he worshipped the sandals of God Rama - he said he would not rule the kingdom that Rama was the rightful king and he asked for Rama's sandals and he put them up on the throne and became a minister and conducted affairs that way

yes he 'Served' as a minister , ....this is the very important point , ..there is no shame in Seva , ...Seva is putting oneself in a lowly psition next to greatness , it does not denote worthlesness it denotes selfllessness , ...this it is showing Knowledge of our relationship to God

 

[ratikala]

continued , ....

We are not going to get very far if we continue to blindly follow old ideas - fact is that we are influenced by our society and the economy - being ruled by others for so long, first under the mughals and then under the British - we were basically slaves - forced to follow orders and that, sadly has warped our view a bit. We have become weak - hoping for some God to come to our rescue

it is not waiting for some god to come to our rescue it is waiting for us to come to our sences and realise our relationship to God , ....it is not only about india , ....Hindu have been supressed by others for economic gain this is true , ...but still Sanatana Dharma has not been supressed , it is not possible to supress truth completely , ..what is important is to realise this truth of our relationship to the Supreme concentrating on recent history will not help in this , nor will it help to concentrate on Cultural habits and trying to atribute them to outside influence , why , ..?
Why try to explain away greatness ??? ...Humility is Greatness , ..takes a great and realised person to be truely Humble , ...Humility is a sign of Greatness of inteligence and knowledge of God , ....

That is not Hinduism - never has been - every thing about Hinduism tells me that this is a faith for the Strong - not for the weak.

exactly yes , ...''.faith for the strong'' ....it takes a strong and coragious person to even begin to look at the Greatness of God , and even sronger man to say I am nothing next to the Greatness of God , ...Hanuman ji is very Great , his humility is like a beautifying Garland , ..his Humility makes him even Greater , .......

That is why God Krishna refused to help Arjuna - this was his fight and God Krishna would not interfere. That is why Hinduism teaches Reincarnation - we die, we come right back - we are not running away to some magic lands in the sky

this is where Krsna is so very clever , ...He did not refuse , ...first of all choice was between army or Krsna , ..which means choice betwen Material Might or the Personification of Wisdom , Krsna said I will not Fight , this means only that he will not engage in physical warfare , Krsna did not say I will not interfere , ....he does not need to he is the supreme controler , ...he is very clever he does not need to act in this way , ...but when in the Gita itself Arjuna would not fight Krsna got down from the chariot and said if you will not fight then I will , ....and yes Krsna taught that we are not this body that we will take on new bodies as a man puts on fresh clothing , ...agreed we are not running away , we can not run away , ...but we can take on different states of mind , ....and likewise as is said in the Heart Sutra ....Om Gate Gate Para Gate Para Sam Gate Bodhi Soha. ....there comes a time when one goes beyond the need to take on any further human Births , ...

Just because you don't jump up and greet your boss when he walks in does that mean you don't respect him? Plenty of people do that - the same way - God won't think any less of you if you don't kneel. You can show your devotion just by sitting and folding your hands in namaste - in fact, if you go to the Temple - the vast majority of Hindus are doing just that. Do you understand that is what Hinduism IS teaching us?

God and Boss are two different scenarios it is like choice between Krsna and Krsna's army , ....one is material the other trancends materiality , ....but when we go to the temple or we greet another person we salute God , ..I say to you Namaskaram to salute and respect Jivatma , ....if you are my boss I give same Namaskaram to you as to begar in the street , ...Namaskaram to Jivatma , ....only the foolish and materialy concerned give Namaskars to the wealth and position of a person , ....

Have you seen pictures of muslims at prayer? Rows and rows of men down on their knees, begging and groveling like weak slaves - that is not us. That is not Hinduism

it is very dangerous to look at it like this , it is dangerous to assume what another is thinking ..you say you realise that we take subsequent Births , then you must ask why is this one born Muslim another born Christian and me Hindu , ...Why Why is this ? ....

 

[ratikala]

Jai Jai , .......Great Sufi poet Bulleh Shah Ki jai

@Aupmanyav ji

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya to me, I am not known

–

Na main momin vich maseetaan
Na main vich kufar diyan reetaan
Na main paakaan vich paleetaan
Na main moosa na firown

Not a believer inside the mosque, am I
Nor a pagan disciple of false rites
Not the pure amongst the impure
Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya! to me, I am not known

Na main andar ved kitaabaan
Na vich bhangaan na sharaabaan
Na vich rindaan masat kharaabaan
Na vich jaagan na vich saun

Not in the holy Vedas, am I
Nor in opium, neither in wine
Not in the drunkard’s intoxicated craze
Neither awake, nor in a sleeping daze

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya! to me, I am not known

Na vich shaadi na ghamnaaki
Na main vich paleeti paaki
Na main aabi na main khaki
Na main aatish na main paun

In happiness nor in sorrow, am I
Neither clean, nor a filthy mire
Not from water, nor from earth
Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya! to me, I am not known

Na main arabi na lahori
Na main hindi shehar nagauri
Na hindu na turak peshawri
Na main rehnda vich nadaun

Not an Arab, nor Lahori
Neither Hindi, nor Nagauri
Hindu, Turk, nor Peshawari
Nor do I live in Nadaun

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya! to me, I am not known

Na main bheth mazhab da paaya
Ne main aadam havva jaaya
Na main apna naam dharaaya
Na vich baitthan na vich bhaun

Secrets of religion, I have not known
From Adam and Eve, I am not born
I am not the name I assume
Not in stillness, nor on the move

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya! to me, I am not known

Avval aakhir aap nu jaana
Na koi dooja hor pehchaana
Maethon hor na koi siyaana
Bulla! ooh khadda hai kaun

I am the first, I am the last
None other, have I ever known
I am the wisest of them all
Bulleh! do I stand alone?

Bulleya Ki jaana main Kaun
Bulleya! to me, I am not known

 

[RamaRaksha]

Namaskaram RamaRaksha ji




...here you speak of Buddha , ...His mantra from the Heart sutra , ....TaYaTa Om Gate Gate Para Gate Para Sam Gate Bodhi Soha. ...this same Gate Gati in sanskrit is the act or atainment of going beyond worldly perception , ...so Saranagati going for protestion is the seeking of wisdom that enlightens that takes us from worldly and bodily conceptions to the realisation of our true nature , ...so to throw our bodies on the floor infront of God is no more than saying , ...this body is inconsequential by comparison to the realisation of our true nature and our eternal relationship to God , .....the humility of surrender is only the first step in this pricess of rising above bodily and worldly conception , .....

how Rama veiwed Hanuman ji has no bearing upon how Hanuman ji chooses to pay his respects to Ramaof course Rama loved Hanuman ji as a brother , ...but this does not prevent hanuman ji paying his respects to Sri Rama , there is no shame in paying ones respects to God , ...

yes he 'Served' as a minister , ....this is the very important point , ..there is no shame in Seva , ...Seva is putting oneself in a lowly psition next to greatness , it does not denote worthlesness it denotes selfllessness , ...this it is showing Knowledge of our relationship to God

The Buddha made 2 mistakes - 1 - he went in search of ending pain and suffering - at the end i hope he realized his error - basically an end to pain and suffering means an end to life as we know it - Life comes packaged with pain and suffering & that is why he taught the middle path - to deal with pan as best as we can
2. At first when he left the palace he did what Hindus taught him - to suffer - sadhus used self-mortification as a way to get to God and the Buddha finally realized that was not the way to God, but he made a mistake as these Sadhus also did in understanding what Hinduism was trying to teach there - as a kid i remember going to Tirupathi - God Venkateswara resides up at the top of a hill and buses will take us there but there are also steps that you can take - the long, slow way and my mother told me that you get more punya if you take the steps- basically Hinduism was teaching us what life teaches us - that good things in life have to be worked for, they are hard to obtain, in our quest for the good things in life, there will be pain and suffering - we must overcome such pain and suffering

I feel your view of life is one of a weak person - running away from life - throwing your body and calling it inconsequential - this is a Gift of Life that God has given you - you are so absorbed in the "I" - all you can think of is yourself - how you can get away from this life and go away to some magic land and take it easy. Have you ever considered the good you can do with your life? There is poverty, discrimination, lots of suffering in this world and God has given you this body, this life so that you can do some good - but that takes strength. Your view of life is that of a weak person - how do "I" get away from this suffering? Gandhiji saw the same suffering and what did he think? How can "I" make things better? It is a totally different view

That's why you don't surrender, that is why you don't beg or think some God is going to rescue you

Just as God Rama saw Hanumanji as his son, Hanumanji felt the same way - your painter was wrong - but again you discard the view of God Rama and Hanumanji and try to justify a painter's view

I can do good things that God might appreciate, but i don't have to lower myself or surrender myself - i am nobody's servant - please see that you are a Child of God, not God's servant - you keep doing this as if God will be pleased and i keep saying God will be ashamed of your views - if you child wants to be your servant, would you like that? If your child says all i want to be is just a lowly clerk in some small shop, will that make you happy? Wouldn't you ask him or her to have higher goals?

Aham Brahmasmi - my favorite Hindu quote - it blew my mind when i read it - I am God! I will follow in God's footsteps just as any Child would. You are Brahma - Brahman is within you - stop thinking like a servant

 

[RamaRaksha]

continued , ....

it is very dangerous to look at it like this , it is dangerous to assume what another is thinking ..you say you realise that we take subsequent Births , then you must ask why is this one born Muslim another born Christian and me Hindu , ...Why Why is this ? ....

We have talked a bit and i hope you will reflect on what i have written. As for being born a muslim - my 2nd favorite Hindu quote - Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - if you feel that you are a weak person needing help from above - then you will be born weak. Some muslims claim that there are 72 virgins in heaven - their mind is clearly on sex, not on God. They will be reborn as bonobo monkeys or chimps or birds - lots of sex - they will get their wish

When i look at life i see the "lower" forms of life have less pain and suffering. A cow or a dog or an eagle feels less pain than we do - yes they feel physical pain but they don't feel the mental pain - the loss of a loved one - as we do. And as you go even lower - a bug or a tree or a blade of grass - pain totally disappears

So, i wish you to be more careful with what you wish for - you seem to be going the wrong way - your wish for a worry-free life will be granted but will you end up trading a human life for the life of a tree? Realize that pain and suffering in life is there for a reason

 

[RamaRaksha]

Some teacher may say 'Go ahead, try it'. And the student will understand (experimentally). (You are not going to be harmed greatly, because by reflex you will remove the hand immediately)

One one hand you accept God and on the other hand you do not want to be a slave. Either accept that or reject God. After all, a God will write your fate, otherwise, he is no God.

Sad - a Child of God all you want is to be a slave? You think God is so pleased his son wants to be a weak slave? You think you say you are weak, a jellyfish with no backbone and that is what pleases God?

No, God is not writing my fate, I do - a clear difference between being Strong and Weak - your view of God and life is that of a weak person thinking your weakness somehow pleases God

Listen, if human life is too tough for you - have you noticed that the "lower" forms of life have much less pain? A cow or a dog feels less pain than we do - yes they feel physical pain but mental pain - the pain of the loss of a loved one - they feel less. And if you go even lower - a tree, a bug or a blade of grass - these life forms feel no pain at all!

I fear you are headed the wrong way - if human life is too tough and all you want is to be taken care of as if you are an invalid child - then you can be reborn as a tree - God will provide you with food - the sun - you won't even have to move

 

[RamaRaksha]

If I can say, I think that the disciple is the one who keels or worship the so called God's, where as the Enlightened one realizes their Divinity, their Oneness with all there is, call that God, the Source, or the pure Consciousness. The one who has truly realized their true Divinity don't worship that which is not who they are, for they have realized their true inner SELF, worship is only for the ignorant.

Worship with - a dancer dances in the Temple singing see my art - this is my worship

Most people use cheap words and they call it worship - those words are filled with Gimme this, Gimme that

True Worship is in not thinking of oneself - when we volunteer at a shelter, during those few hours we forget ourselves - we only think of others - that is True Worship

 

[RamaRaksha]

It is a consistent wonder to me and everyone else here, how you consider your views to be normative on Hinduism without being able to provide any support from the scripture. Firstly, let me be clear, I consider the abolishment of many of the oppressive Hindu social customs like caste, oppression of widows, polygamy a good thing. I clearly see that in many instances, the modern concepts of human rights are significantly superior than older social customs found in Hindu law codes. But Hindu social systems have always conceded that social laws change with the times and those who stick to old social norms merely because they are written in Hindu law codes are merely being prejudicial.
However, Indian philosophy, theology, ways of worship and the theory behind realizing Atman/Brahman/Isvara are part of the core of Santana Dharma and is not beholden to social custom. The way of devotion through selfless service is simply not a reaction of poor oppressed Hindus to Islamic and British occupation, they are mentioned in the Upanisads (Svetaswatara which takes Siva as the supreme God) and the fact that people worshiped Vasudeva and Siva as supreme God is noted by Panini (300-200 BCE). Of course there is Gita (100 BCE-100 CE) which clearly predates all influences from Abrahamic religion.
I find it curious that you mention the Mahabharata and do not mention the fact that in Gita, Krishna contradicts everything you are saying.

Gita Chapter 11:44
Therefore, bowing down, prostrating my body (tasmat pranamya pranidhyhaya kayam) [pranidha means to prostrate http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:5218.apte ]
I ask forgiveness of You, O Lord;
As in a father to a son, a friend to a friend,
A lover to a beloved,
O, Lord, be merciful.
----------------------------------------
So, as you can see devotion by bowing, worshipping and prostration are all acceptable forms of faith and none of them are taken to mean that the devotee is a slave to God.
Next I can quote multiple Upanisadic and Gita and Brahmasutra and Yogasutra verses to show that the universal goal of Hindu religious practice is freedom from rebirth, i.e. moksha.

Almost nothing you are saying Ramaraksha, has anything to do with Hindu practice whatsoever. Devoted worship by selfless surrender to God is an (but not the only) accepted path in Hinduism and has been since the Mauryan era at least.

You write about Hindu customs that are outdated and need to be changed but then you find some that you like and insist they are correct as written?

Fact of the matter is that life is incredibly hard and it was much, much tougher for our ancients - imagine your parents dying in their 30's - diseases running rampant that we knew little about - not much law and order in those days - looting, killing and raping were common - that is how Sati got started - Kshatriya women choosing to kill themselves rather than be raped

It is from this background that a bountiful afterlife was promoted by religions - christianity and islam have created magic lands of comfort for themselves - unfortunately so have some Hindus. But Hinduism has stood alone in asking us to choose Reincarnation - choose Life - yes there is pain here, suffering is here & yet Hinduism says choose this. Why?

Because heaven is a myth - you say freedom from rebirth - sir freedom from rebirth will get you death - that's all. You don't get to go sit in some magic land and take it easy. You think God is some Sugar Daddy? Will just let you sit in some magic land and keep you in comfort?

Surrender to God? God is some knight in shining armor come to save damsels in distress? God is so impressed that you are a weak, jellyfish?

Go back to the Mahabharata - God Krishna has made it clear - i will only advice and instruct - nothing more - don't expect anything more from God. If you do not want to be reborn - that is your right - God will not stop you - you will simply cease to exist - that's all

Reincarnation is like staying in school - you can choose to drop out - but no one is going to give you a medal if you drop out - your parents (God) will not be happy that you dropped out - in fact, they will be ashamed of you, you will have endless days of nothing to do but life won't be better because of it

 

[psychoslice]

Worship with - a dancer dances in the Temple singing see my art - this is my worship

Most people use cheap words and they call it worship - those words are filled with Gimme this, Gimme that

True Worship is in not thinking of oneself - when we volunteer at a shelter, during those few hours we forget ourselves - we only think of others - that is True Worship

Yes I certainly agree with that, and well said.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sad - a Child of God all you want is to be a slave?

Dear Ramaraksha, I am an atheist advaitist Hindu. I do not believe in existence of God. So, whose slave can I be?

I choose my own masters. My family is my master. My religion, my culture, my society, my country is my master. I have chosen these masters myself.

 

[sayak83]

You write about Hindu customs that are outdated and need to be changed but then you find some that you like and insist they are correct as written?

Fact of the matter is that life is incredibly hard and it was much, much tougher for our ancients - imagine your parents dying in their 30's - diseases running rampant that we knew little about - not much law and order in those days - looting, killing and raping were common - that is how Sati got started - Kshatriya women choosing to kill themselves rather than be raped

It is from this background that a bountiful afterlife was promoted by religions - christianity and islam have created magic lands of comfort for themselves - unfortunately so have some Hindus. But Hinduism has stood alone in asking us to choose Reincarnation - choose Life - yes there is pain here, suffering is here & yet Hinduism says choose this. Why?

Because heaven is a myth - you say freedom from rebirth - sir freedom from rebirth will get you death - that's all. You don't get to go sit in some magic land and take it easy. You think God is some Sugar Daddy? Will just let you sit in some magic land and keep you in comfort?

Surrender to God? God is some knight in shining armor come to save damsels in distress? God is so impressed that you are a weak, jellyfish?

Go back to the Mahabharata - God Krishna has made it clear - i will only advice and instruct - nothing more - don't expect anything more from God. If you do not want to be reborn - that is your right - God will not stop you - you will simply cease to exist - that's all

Reincarnation is like staying in school - you can choose to drop out - but no one is going to give you a medal if you drop out - your parents (God) will not be happy that you dropped out - in fact, they will be ashamed of you, you will have endless days of nothing to do but life won't be better because of it

Hindu theology has consistently stressed that freedom from rebirth is the ultimate aim of its practices. Find me a scripture that says rebirth is better than liberation from rebirth. otherwise its another of your made up ideas about what Hinduism is. You can have your own ideas of what to take or not to take from Hindu and Indian theological ideas, but you cannot say something is normative to Hindu dharma when its clearly not.
Till now all you have written here are your own opinions while many of us have defended our views using scriptural passages. I will not reply to you further unless you find scriptural passages that say things like, heaven is not real, rebirth is better than liberation from rebirth, God dislikes people who selflessly surrenders to them, etc.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Rama Raksha ji

The Buddha made 2 mistakes - 1 - he went in search of ending pain and suffering - at the end i hope he realized his error - basically an end to pain and suffering means an end to life as we know it - Life comes packaged with pain and suffering & that is why he taught the middle path - to deal with pan as best as we can

True yes , Siddhattha Gautama went in search of enlightenment , the state of all knowing which revelals the cause and end suffering , ...Buddha as his very name implies attained such a state of enlightenment , ...A Buddha , an 'Enlightened One' does not make mistakes ,He taught that to end pain one must go beyond attatchment to this worldly realm , Beyond attachment to this Body , as it is attatchment that is the cause of pain and Suffering , ......
I think here Lord Buddha was perfectly correct , ....

2. At first when he left the palace he did what Hindus taught him - to suffer - sadhus used self-mortification as a way to get to God and the Buddha finally realized that was not the way to God, but he made a mistake as these Sadhus also did in understanding what Hinduism was trying to teach there -

so you are saying that Bhagavatam is wrong ? you are saying that Siddhatta Gautama did not attain enlightenment , ...in which case Why is he called Buddha , .Enlightened one ?....you are saying that an incarnation of Visnu is making a mistake ? , ...you are saying that the Great Sakyamuni Buddha was not a great sage you are saying he was mistaken , ....
I am sorry Prabhu ji , ....you have not understood the story of the great Sakyamuni Buddha , .....

.....as a kid i remember going to Tirupathi - God Venkateswara resides up at the top of a hill and buses will take us there but there are also steps that you can take - the long, slow way and my mother told me that you get more punya if you take the steps- basically Hinduism was teaching us what life teaches us - that good things in life have to be worked for, they are hard to obtain, in our quest for the good things in life, there will be pain and suffering - we must overcome such pain and suffering

also this is teaching you to make a Sacrifice , ....this walking instead of taking the Bus , this making an effort , this forgoing confort , this is an austerity , ...this is Sacrifice , ..Giving something up , ....yes it is teaching you to overcome suffering , but it is also teaching you the value of sacrivicing your mundane comforts , ...and you are doing this for Punya , as I understand it it is not done to ''get more Punya '' ...this is not the right way , True Vaisnava does not do it to 'get' punya true Vaisnava does it to be close to God , to relish and enjoy every step , ....any pain or discomfort of walking is overcome by the joyfull attitude of the devotee whos mind is fixed on God , ...he does not even feel pain he is beyond pain he has trancended all worldliness thus he is not concerned with the body he is thinking only one thing Soon I will see my Lord Venkatesvara , ......

I feel your view of life is one of a weak person - running away from life - throwing your body and calling it inconsequential - this is a Gift of Life that God has given you - you are so absorbed in the "I" - all you can think of is yourself - how you can get away from this life and go away to some magic land and take it easy. Have you ever considered the good you can do with your life? {/quote]

Here you have so much missed the point , ....it is not running away it is perfecting life , ....it is realising the eternal relationship between ourselves and the Supreme when we say Saranam it is Surrender of the 'I' , it is going beyond the 'I' , ...going beyond the 'I' is not attatching importance to the material body , or the temporary self , ...and you think it is thinking of the self and only the self infact it is the opposite , ....
yes of course we can do good with our lives whilst we are here but for it to be true Good it should be un attatched action , ...

There is poverty, discrimination, lots of suffering in this world and God has given you this body, this life so that you can do some good - but that takes strength. Your view of life is that of a weak person - how do "I" get away from this suffering? Gandhiji saw the same suffering and what did he think? How can "I" make things better? It is a totally different view

jai jai , exactly Ghandi ji went beyond his own bodily concerns , why and how ? because he was devotted to lord Rama he became servant of Lord Rama and servant of Bharatmata , servant of the indian nation , he gave up all sence of self , ...this is True Surrender , ....Do you think Ghandi Ji said ''I will do this '' or ''this must be done'' ? ..
in my oppinion Ghandi ji was the perfect Vaisnava , ...putting him self last and others first , this was his understanding of Dharma , Duty , ...there is no 'I' involved one just does the needfull because it must be done , ....

That's why you don't surrender, that is why you don't beg or think some God is going to rescue you

it is here that you do not understand , Ghandi Ji was surrendered , but surrender does not mean to beg , ...it is here that you are mistaken , .....one surrenders to God as one would to Truth , ...God is Rightiousness , ..all knowingness , Truth and pure Bliss , when a devotee surrenders he does not beg for some benifit he asks fro the strenght to overcome iggnorance and weakness , .....Weakness is self interest , it is this self serving nature that is the cause of all suffering in this world , ....

Just as God Rama saw Hanumanji as his son, Hanumanji felt the same way - your painter was wrong - but again you discard the view of God Rama and Hanumanji and try to justify a painter's view

why is everyone wrong according to you , ...Buddha is wrong , I am wrong , Painter is wrong , ...Humility is wrong , ...No prabhu ji Humility is strength , ...it takes courage to surrender , it takes greatness to show humility , ...

I can do good things that God might appreciate, but i don't have to lower myself or surrender myself - i am nobody's servant - please see that you are a Child of God, not God's servant - you keep doing this as if God will be pleased and i keep saying God will be ashamed of your views - if you child wants to be your servant, would you like that? If your child says all i want to be is just a lowly clerk in some small shop, will that make you happy? Wouldn't you ask him or her to have higher goals?

please do do good things this is a very admirable motivation , ...but all the time you let your pride come between you and God you are simply serving the self , ...you are servant of your own ego , ....you have simply convinced youself that you do not need to surrender , that God dosent want it , because you are not yet ready to give it , ...you think you are God , ....???

Aham Brahmasmi - my favorite Hindu quote - it blew my mind when i read it - I am God! I will follow in God's footsteps just as any Child would. You are Brahma - Brahman is within you - stop thinking like a servant

but even child has to undergo learning he is not born all knowing , so he does not have the full qualities of God , God is all knowing , All inteligent , Eternaly Blissfull and full of Knowledge , .....we are as of yet unperfected , ...God is eternaly perfect , ....
if you are to think literaly ' Aham Brahmasmi ' .....then yes yes, .... in that instance I too am God , so do not call me weak ! ....Buddha is also God so do not call him mistaken ! ...and please do not call devotional painters Wrong , ...they are right in ways you have yet to understand , ....

 

[RamaRaksha]

Dear Ramaraksha, I am an atheist advaitist Hindu. I do not believe in existence of God. So, whose slave can I be?

I choose my own masters. My family is my master. My religion, my culture, my society, my country is my master. I have chosen these masters myself.

I am sorry you talk in riddles - you are the one who posted that one has to be a slave to God now you are talking something else - you can't keep changing your tune all the time - say one thing and stick to it or change your views

 

[RamaRaksha]

Hindu theology has consistently stressed that freedom from rebirth is the ultimate aim of its practices. Find me a scripture that says rebirth is better than liberation from rebirth. otherwise its another of your made up ideas about what Hinduism is. You can have your own ideas of what to take or not to take from Hindu and Indian theological ideas, but you cannot say something is normative to Hindu dharma when its clearly not.
Till now all you have written here are your own opinions while many of us have defended our views using scriptural passages. I will not reply to you further unless you find scriptural passages that say things like, heaven is not real, rebirth is better than liberation from rebirth, God dislikes people who selflessly surrenders to them, etc.

Unfortunately if your were alive when the Buddha first started disagreeing with the Vedas, you would be asking where he was getting his ideas from also

We have to get past from blindly reading texts - the ancients wrote and followed ideas that suited their way of life - caste system, sati, etc etc - you say we should not follow such systems anymore - since these are Hindu ideas, if you do not follow them, does that mean you are not Hindu?

Problem with texts is that over the years anyone could have written them, people could have changed what was written. Another problem is what a word means also changes over time - a sanskrit word that meant one thing at one time, its meaning changes over time

I don't want to blindly follow something that is written in a book - you say Hindu theology stresses freedom from rebirth - fine - then what? You think you get to go off to some magic land and take it easy? Why be born in the first place then? What was the whole point of being born? If one is never born, then one can't ever incur Karmas, correct? Why be born, incur karmas and keep being born until our karmas are exhausted, then be free? Don't even get started, stay in the magic land?

One has to use some common sense - i look for rational explanations to ideas - to me that's all these are. Life is tough, life is difficult, nothing is easy in life and so people came up with magic lands of plenty in the afterlife - heavens. Ancient Hindus saw this as running away from life and so they stressed Reincarnation - no running away for Hindus

Lastly, it gets me immensely frustrated to see the weakness - Life is a Gift! A Gift from God! It is not a burden, it is not something that we have to get thru - it is like going to school - we may hate it but we at what point do we realize the Gift of knowledge? At what point do we say, What can I do to help? To make this a better world?

The next Gandhiji, Subbalaxmi, Einstein, Bohr, Michelangelo, Mozart will be born from those who choose Reincarnation - but it will be limited to those who can see Life as a Gift, not a burden

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am sorry you talk in riddles - you are the one who posted that one has to be a slave to God now you are talking something else - you can't keep changing your tune all the time - say one thing and stick to it or change your views

That is the difference. I take into consideration the views of other people also. Some people talk only about their own views.

One has to use some common sense - i look for rational explanations to ideas .. Life is a Gift! A Gift from God!

You think that is rational. Many people will disagree.

 

[RamaRaksha]

namaskaram Rama Raksha ji

True yes , Siddhattha Gautama went in search of enlightenment , the state of all knowing which revelals the cause and end suffering , ...Buddha as his very name implies attained such a state of enlightenment , ...A Buddha , an 'Enlightened One' does not make mistakes ,He taught that to end pain one must go beyond attatchment to this worldly realm , Beyond attachment to this Body , as it is attatchment that is the cause of pain and Suffering , ......
I think here Lord Buddha was perfectly correct , ....
so you are saying that Bhagavatam is wrong ? you are saying that Siddhatta Gautama did not attain enlightenment , ...in which case Why is he called Buddha , .Enlightened one ?....you are saying that an incarnation of Visnu is making a mistake ? , ...you are saying that the Great Sakyamuni Buddha was not a great sage you are saying he was mistaken , ....
I am sorry Prabhu ji , ....you have not understood the story of the great Sakyamuni Buddha , .....

also this is teaching you to make a Sacrifice , ....this walking instead of taking the Bus , this making an effort , this forgoing confort , this is an austerity , ...this is Sacrifice , ..Giving something up , ....yes it is teaching you to overcome suffering , but it is also teaching you the value of sacrivicing your mundane comforts , ...and you are doing this for Punya , as I understand it it is not done to ''get more Punya '' ...this is not the right way , True Vaisnava does not do it to 'get' punya true Vaisnava does it to be close to God , to relish and enjoy every step , ....any pain or discomfort of walking is overcome by the joyfull attitude of the devotee whos mind is fixed on God , ...he does not even feel pain he is beyond pain he has trancended all worldliness thus he is not concerned with the body he is thinking only one thing Soon I will see my Lord Venkatesvara , ......

The Buddha was just a human being just like you and me - if you read his story then you will see him as one - yes with flaws. Just because someone gives him a title doesn't make him beyond criticism. Did you know that the Buddha refused to let women into his Sangha - not even his own mother? Would you say that is sexist? But it gets worse - finally he agreed but on one condition that any women joining must be lower than even the youngest male member of the Sangha - ie his mother would be considered lower than a teenage male kid who joined the Sangha - so much for enlightenment

you are making the same mistake as the one you did with the painting - the painting clouds your mind - i keep saying Hanumanji considered himself a child of God Rama, he would never stoop to kneeling and God Rama would have considered it an insult - but the painter thought differently and that's what he painted. Just because someone says the Buddha is enlightened, let's not run away with not seeing his faults

When the Buddha first left his palace he kept company with some Hindu sadhus who believed in self-mortification - starving themselves, lying on nails - suffering and that's what they thought would get them God. The Buddha finally realized that this was not the way - but the Buddha misunderstood what Hinduism was trying to teach just as those Sadhus did. Hinduism taught the lessons of life

I remember going to Tirupathi at an young age - buses carried us to the top of the hills where God (please do not use the word Lord - Lord & Master - that is a slave word) Venkateswara's Temple was located - but as you well know there are steps that you can also climb - when i asked my mother why anyone would take those steps, my mother said they would get more punya that way. My mother thought like me, i think she was just trying to explain it to a little kid but that was not the right answer

In life you find that good things don't just fall from the sky - one has to work for them, sacrifice for them - there will be pain and suffering. As a kid i always strove for top marks - getting good enough marks was not for me - i wanted the top marks above everyone else - that made me work hard, study hard - it also made me worry - pain & suffering - and so it is with anything in life - that is what the Buddha misunderstood, what Hinduism is trying to teach us

I fear you are going the wrong way - the closer you get to God, the more the pain and suffering, not less. Human life comes with pain and suffering - like a coin - if on one side there is joy and happiness, the other side has pain and suffering. You have a choice to make - you can opt out - realize that being reborn as a Tree or a little bug you will have less pain and suffering - that is where you are headed. You have latched on to God and hope that God will get you out of pain and suffering, you will get it, but not with human life - you can be reborn as a Tree and enjoy a life of no pain or suffering - you will get what you wanted

 

[RamaRaksha]

That is the difference. I take into consideration the views of other people also. Some people talk only about their own views. You think that is rational. Many people will disagree.

I was asking you to be consistent - one post you say one has to be a slave and then you post something else - if people keep getting different answers from you then there is no reason to keep talking

For a long time life has been incredibly harsh and that has made man weak - we look for an easy life and religions like christianity and islam exploit that need with magic lands after death. Sadly some Hindus have fallen for that trick also - but Hinduism stands alone in asking us to choose Reincarnation - Life, Real Life with all its pains and sufferings. It is tempting to run away - off we go to same magic lands where life will be easy - but it is a myth, just a fantasy. Only Life is Real

 

[sayak83]

Unfortunately if your were alive when the Buddha first started disagreeing with the Vedas, you would be asking where he was getting his ideas from also

We have to get past from blindly reading texts - the ancients wrote and followed ideas that suited their way of life - caste system, sati, etc etc - you say we should not follow such systems anymore - since these are Hindu ideas, if you do not follow them, does that mean you are not Hindu?

Problem with texts is that over the years anyone could have written them, people could have changed what was written. Another problem is what a word means also changes over time - a sanskrit word that meant one thing at one time, its meaning changes over time

I don't want to blindly follow something that is written in a book - you say Hindu theology stresses freedom from rebirth - fine - then what? You think you get to go off to some magic land and take it easy? Why be born in the first place then? What was the whole point of being born? If one is never born, then one can't ever incur Karmas, correct? Why be born, incur karmas and keep being born until our karmas are exhausted, then be free? Don't even get started, stay in the magic land?

One has to use some common sense - i look for rational explanations to ideas - to me that's all these are. Life is tough, life is difficult, nothing is easy in life and so people came up with magic lands of plenty in the afterlife - heavens. Ancient Hindus saw this as running away from life and so they stressed Reincarnation - no running away for Hindus

Lastly, it gets me immensely frustrated to see the weakness - Life is a Gift! A Gift from God! It is not a burden, it is not something that we have to get thru - it is like going to school - we may hate it but we at what point do we realize the Gift of knowledge? At what point do we say, What can I do to help? To make this a better world?

The next Gandhiji, Subbalaxmi, Einstein, Bohr, Michelangelo, Mozart will be born from those who choose Reincarnation - but it will be limited to those who can see Life as a Gift, not a burden

How is reincarnation common sense? If you are going to use common sense and common sense only then you should ditch reincarnation as well, should you not?
The second point is that you spoke throughout the thread as if your views were what true, authentic Hinduism truly is and everything else is superstition masquerading as hinduism. Your can argue your views based on your own rationality, understanding and empiricism and I would have had no issue with it. Hindu society accepts wide variety of viewpoints and I have no issue with it (I myself am far far far from any orthodox position at all.) It was your claim of representing the "true" spirit of Hinduism (and everybody else being somehow deluded about Hinduism) that I took issue with. You have no basis for saying that, you should accept the fact that what you believe is not in accordance with the writings and beliefs of majority of practicing Hindus, but that is okay.