Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Ramaraksha, my Hinduism has made me discard many things; creation, God, soul, birth, death, transfer of karma to a future life, heaven and hell. Trying to force uniformity/regimentation on Hinduism is futile.
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Hindus & Buddhists: Why we should not kneel to God
- Thread starter RamaRaksha
- Start date
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram RamaRaksha ji
if this is Debate then it is very weak debate , it is only you giving your oppinion you give no scriptural evidence to back your claim you do not even discuss Sastra , ....
now to finaly discredit your self you fly in the face of Bhagavatam
Story ? ....whos story are you reading ???
as regards to women , ...I know only this , ...that he started seperate sangha for Bhikshuni , ....the only reason women and men do not mix is that untill fully practiced neither sex need the destraction of the company of the either sex , ...you canot apply the term sexist in respect of sexual discrimination to the subject of renunciation as both genders reject the opposite sex in that by renouncing worldly life one also renounces all worldly fetters such as family life and personal relationships merely because they are distractions , .....
Prabhu ji , ...I assume that you are still young , ....whilst your attitude of equality is touching , prehaps with years and experience you will realise that Kneeling , Bowing , Prostrating or paying ones Pranamas is neither shamefull or wrong therefore you canot without giving scriptural evidence expect any one to accept that Sri Rama would have considered this an insult , ..this proposal has no support what so ever , ....where as countless generations of painters have portrayed Hanuman as he is portrayed in Sastra it is not the painters that impute their own sentiments upon the relationship of Hanuman ji and Sri Rama it is merely you who are offended by such sentients and displays of respect ,likewise it is you who put forward the notion of Sri Rama considering it an insult , ....where in Sastra is there any evidence for this claim ?
Hinduism in the days of Gautama Buddha was very different to the Hinduism of today in reality Hinduism as a blanket term was introfduced at a later date instead there were many regional practices for non Brahmins there was also many branches of Braminism and asthetacism being practiced allong side oneanother each with different aims , ...
So if we are going to be correct about this there was no one unified Hindu teaching in the Day of Gautama Buddha as there still to this day is not one unified Hindu veiw , ....
{quote]I remember going to Tirupathi at an young age - buses carried us to the top of the hills where God (please do not use the word Lord - Lord & Master - that is a slave word) Venkateswara's Temple was located - but as you well know there are steps that you can also climb - when i asked my mother why anyone would take those steps, my mother said they would get more punya that way. My mother thought like me, i think she was just trying to explain it to a little kid but that was not the right answer
In life you find that good things don't just fall from the sky - one has to work for them, sacrifice for them - there will be pain and suffering. As a kid i always strove for top marks - getting good enough marks was not for me - i wanted the top marks above everyone else - that made me work hard, study hard - it also made me worry - pain & suffering - and so it is with anything in life - that is what the Buddha misunderstood, what Hinduism is trying to teach us[/quote]
Here you are speaking of material results and accknowledging that one has to make sacrifices , yes yes , here I agree entirely , simmilarly to make spiritual progress one must also make sacrifices , in this instance the sacrifice is the Ego the false notion of any sence of self , ....adopting an attitude of Humility is a very good way of destroying this false pride , ...
Lord in this instance means Exalted and denotes the authority of Divine personages , ....therefore it is not wrong to use this term as translation it is meredevotional politness , ....
do not worry on my part , ..true this life is full of suffering , my material body is the cause of much suffering , but at the same time my mind is free , ...my mind can know the true happiness gained from the association of God , ...yes you have a chioce , choice is between association with the body or association with God , ..becoming a tree is just association with a tree body it is still identification with A body , ....
prehaps later we shal have a discussion of the meaning behind Patita-Pavana , ...prehaps you will please tell me how you understand this ???
if this is Debate then it is very weak debate , it is only you giving your oppinion you give no scriptural evidence to back your claim you do not even discuss Sastra , ....
now to finaly discredit your self you fly in the face of Bhagavatam
Story ? ....whos story are you reading ???
as regards to women , ...I know only this , ...that he started seperate sangha for Bhikshuni , ....the only reason women and men do not mix is that untill fully practiced neither sex need the destraction of the company of the either sex , ...you canot apply the term sexist in respect of sexual discrimination to the subject of renunciation as both genders reject the opposite sex in that by renouncing worldly life one also renounces all worldly fetters such as family life and personal relationships merely because they are distractions , .....
Prabhu ji , ...I assume that you are still young , ....whilst your attitude of equality is touching , prehaps with years and experience you will realise that Kneeling , Bowing , Prostrating or paying ones Pranamas is neither shamefull or wrong therefore you canot without giving scriptural evidence expect any one to accept that Sri Rama would have considered this an insult , ..this proposal has no support what so ever , ....where as countless generations of painters have portrayed Hanuman as he is portrayed in Sastra it is not the painters that impute their own sentiments upon the relationship of Hanuman ji and Sri Rama it is merely you who are offended by such sentients and displays of respect ,likewise it is you who put forward the notion of Sri Rama considering it an insult , ....where in Sastra is there any evidence for this claim ?
Hinduism in the days of Gautama Buddha was very different to the Hinduism of today in reality Hinduism as a blanket term was introfduced at a later date instead there were many regional practices for non Brahmins there was also many branches of Braminism and asthetacism being practiced allong side oneanother each with different aims , ...
So if we are going to be correct about this there was no one unified Hindu teaching in the Day of Gautama Buddha as there still to this day is not one unified Hindu veiw , ....
{quote]I remember going to Tirupathi at an young age - buses carried us to the top of the hills where God (please do not use the word Lord - Lord & Master - that is a slave word) Venkateswara's Temple was located - but as you well know there are steps that you can also climb - when i asked my mother why anyone would take those steps, my mother said they would get more punya that way. My mother thought like me, i think she was just trying to explain it to a little kid but that was not the right answer
In life you find that good things don't just fall from the sky - one has to work for them, sacrifice for them - there will be pain and suffering. As a kid i always strove for top marks - getting good enough marks was not for me - i wanted the top marks above everyone else - that made me work hard, study hard - it also made me worry - pain & suffering - and so it is with anything in life - that is what the Buddha misunderstood, what Hinduism is trying to teach us[/quote]
Here you are speaking of material results and accknowledging that one has to make sacrifices , yes yes , here I agree entirely , simmilarly to make spiritual progress one must also make sacrifices , in this instance the sacrifice is the Ego the false notion of any sence of self , ....adopting an attitude of Humility is a very good way of destroying this false pride , ...
Lord in this instance means Exalted and denotes the authority of Divine personages , ....therefore it is not wrong to use this term as translation it is meredevotional politness , ....
do not worry on my part , ..true this life is full of suffering , my material body is the cause of much suffering , but at the same time my mind is free , ...my mind can know the true happiness gained from the association of God , ...yes you have a chioce , choice is between association with the body or association with God , ..becoming a tree is just association with a tree body it is still identification with A body , ....
prehaps later we shal have a discussion of the meaning behind Patita-Pavana , ...prehaps you will please tell me how you understand this ???
RamaRaksha
*banned*
???? Where did the idea of Reincarnation come from? Is that not Hinduism? The problem we seem to be having is that if i were born a 1,000 years ago and wrote a book and today it is common knowledge, i trust you would have no problem in accepting it as Hinduism? Sankaracharya believed and taught Advaita, whereas Madhava totally disagreed and taught Dvaita school of vedanta - how can both be Hinduism? They can because Hinduism ultimately is a Teacher faith making room for lots of views
What we have here is a problem of understanding - life is hard, we think we have it tough now but our ancients had it much harder - people built up magic lands in the sky where one could spend the rest of eternity in comfort and yet we see Hinduism teaching Reincarnation - ancient Hindus who were weakened by a tough life felt it was a burden - we have to pay our debts and then we would be free and off we go enjoy. My view is that they were actually saying see that Life is a Gift. When you look upon life with fear - a coward looks upon the oncoming war with fear - all he can see is blood and pain, whereas the Warrior sees greatness, a chance to save his people - once you start viewing Reincarnation from the viewpoint of the Strong - you will see the greatness of Hinduism - the only faith in the entire world to teach this - every other religion in the entire world, in all history teach us to run away to magic lands in the sky - only one religion - Hinduism, disagrees! I swell with pride when i think of this
Tell me, are you able to help others? Donate money or blood? Help at a dog shelter? Distribute food at your Temple? Help others make this a better world?
Tell me, does God need another human being in heaven? Just sitting around doing nothing, enjoying himself? Aren't there billions already, millions more clamoring to get in, get the good life?
You can see that heaven is about being selfish - all about "I", whereas Reincarnation is about being unselfish, thinking about others
The grounded person inside me refuses to believe in magic lands in the sky, i believe that life as we know it is all there is and Hinduism is asking us to not to go chasing after rainbows in the sky, embrace life as we know it, warts and all
RamaRaksha
*banned*
Ramaraksha, my Hinduism has made me discard many things; creation, God, soul, birth, death, transfer of karma to a future life, heaven and hell. Trying to force uniformity/regimentation on Hinduism is futile.
That is your choice - to me what you are saying is like dropping out of school - no more studies, no more choosing what to do with life. Drop out of school, stay home, watch TV, nothing to do, no goals in life, no dreams, no aspirations
Basically you are sending a clear message to God, you want nothing and you shall get it - nothing. After this life, you will cease to exist, just as you wished
These ideas are not complicated - you just have to understand what you are choosing to do, that's all. Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - and you will be what you wish to be
RamaRaksha
*banned*
What Scripture did the Buddha follow? I fear that we blindly accept whatever is written a thousand years ago - has God stopped talking to people? Ancients who were inspired by God Rama - don't know if you understand Telugu - Potana says, "Palikinchinavadu Ramabhandrundata" - meaning Potana is writing what God Rama is telling him - i feel God Rama is telling me what to write also
You want an ancient scripture to say kneeling to God is wrong? And that suddenly will make sense to you? just because it is written in an ancient book? Does casteism makes sense as well? or how about Sati?
At what point do you become what God Krishna said we are? He said he would only advice and instruct, nothing more - he said he would be a Teacher - when will you become a Student and start thinking about life - not as our ancients saw it but as we see it today? Can you break from old traditions and teachings and think differently? We already have dumped caste, sati - no lady is going to marry 5 husbands as Draupadi did - men marrying multiple women is all over our ancient texts - no one does that now
I keep saying, Life is a Gift - this body is a Gift and Hinduism with its teaching of Reincarnation is saying just that and is asking us to savor life over and over - yes this body over and over. If you do not want life or this body or any body - you won't have a brain either - that also comes with the body, remember? No eyes either - no heart or mind either. You won't be any different from an atom or a beam of light or may i say a piece of rock - is that what you want? To be an atom or a piece of rock? As i said, you are heading the wrong way
Yes life is tough, life is difficult but running away from life is not the answer. Instead of focusing so much on how you can find eternal happiness for yourself, maybe you can see the pain and suffering of others? Young kids driven out of their homes, wandering the streets begging for food right here in the USA and a 100 times more in India - can you do something to help? How about animals? Being abused - India recently passed a law banning killing cows and instead of admiring India for it, the western press abuses us Hindus. Can you help at an animal shelter? How about diseases like breast cancer? Can you do something to help?
Now, if you do this - what will you be doing? Going right into the heart of pain and suffering and guess what? when you do that - you will have stopped thinking about yourself, stopped focusing on "I", instead you will be thinking of others and that is when God will smile down upon you
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yes, I am Brahman, what would I wish? I do not change, forms are but illusions. They seem to come into existence, they seem to dissipate. Kindly read second chapter of SrimadBhagawadGita a little more closely. Regards.
RamaRaksha
*banned*
We view Life differently - i see Life as a Gift from God - i see myself as a person who is involved with life, wanting to make a difference
Gandhiji could have had a nice life as a lawyer in England - he didn't have to get involved either in South Africa or here in India, neither did all those who stood with him and fought the British. Schindler did even better - he could have said jews are not my people - why risk myself, my family, my kids - if the Nazis find out what i am doing, they will torture my kids right in front of me
That to me is what God is all about
All i see from you is a selfish self-absorbed person who only cares about himself - doesn't get involved with anything and thinks that he will be happy - yes not getting involved with anything means no one will bother you - it is the weak cowards way of doing things - it is the strong, the involved who will have to face problems in life - if you are weak, useless, no one will ask you for anything, you can be happy
What a waste of human life - God's Gift is wasted
RamaRaksha
*banned*
And how exactly are you Brahman? What an insult - maybe you did not read the Gita either - God Krishna says he doesn't have to do anything but he does - he is always active (Karma yoga) - at no time is he inactive
Blindly rejecting everything is not being Brahman
The jist of your argument is this:-
Whatever you like is TRUE Hinduism (like reincarnation) and whatever you dislike is superstition of those poor ancient folks who had a harsh life (like freedom from reincarnation, devotional service to God, all parts of Gita and Ramayana you don't like). Well, I too can play that game. Reincarnation itself is just as easily considered a mere superstition conjured up and written by those ancient superstitious folks who has nasty, brutal and short lives and wanted another go at it. So is God of course. Now what?
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram ramaraksha ji
agreed it is possible for God to speak to people I am firm beleiver in this , ...and I do not think God is telling us to kneel , we kneel or pay obecances voluntarily ,.....
even if it were there in scripture I would compare and consider it my self as to whether it made sence or not , this is a Buddhist habit which has come with me , ....
and of casteism ? ......the Casteism we know today goes against the original Varnashrama system Casteism is a missinturpretation , in this instance I belive that we should return to shastra on this one and refine our understanding thus abbolishing casteism , ....Sati ? .....this again I feel to be missconstrued , if and only if a woman felt she would be un supported after the death of her husband and feared life alone then Sati would be by choice , enforced Sati in my mind would be incorrect .
Krsna is Bhagavan yes he is teacher and as students ir is not wrong for us to show humility , agreed humility should not be done out of obligatin or dictated by tradition , it should be from the heart , ...
you think that I do not agree that life is a gift ...? however I agree yes yes , ..life is a gift , it is just that i think that it is also appropriate to show ones appreciation and grattitude for that gift and for the guidance of any who lovingly teach us , ....
personaly I do not fel that I am running away , ...or that I am focusing entirely upon the self , and where ever l have the capacity to help eleviate suffering I will do that , ...if I had the recources to help eliviate suffering nothing would make me more happy but sadly the only recources I have at my disposal are my actions so to help aleviate suffering it is only possible for me to refrain from being the cause of suffering , ...all l can do is to help to promote right living , living that causes the least harm , .....
thank you , yes I know this ......
......I allways do what I can and feel blessed in that I know God does smile down on me even knowing what little I can do , ...but in humility and thinking of others I humbly request that he smile down on others too particularly those suffering , ..prehaps sometimes all we have is the ability to act in the right way and to share the Blessings we feel fortunate enough to have received , ...even to the point of writing here , ..we must ask ourselves why am l writing ? ....to prove ones own point ?...or to Glorigy God , to share what experience we have and to be of benifit to others , ...
agreed it is possible for God to speak to people I am firm beleiver in this , ...and I do not think God is telling us to kneel , we kneel or pay obecances voluntarily ,.....
even if it were there in scripture I would compare and consider it my self as to whether it made sence or not , this is a Buddhist habit which has come with me , ....
and of casteism ? ......the Casteism we know today goes against the original Varnashrama system Casteism is a missinturpretation , in this instance I belive that we should return to shastra on this one and refine our understanding thus abbolishing casteism , ....Sati ? .....this again I feel to be missconstrued , if and only if a woman felt she would be un supported after the death of her husband and feared life alone then Sati would be by choice , enforced Sati in my mind would be incorrect .
Krsna is Bhagavan yes he is teacher and as students ir is not wrong for us to show humility , agreed humility should not be done out of obligatin or dictated by tradition , it should be from the heart , ...
you think that I do not agree that life is a gift ...? however I agree yes yes , ..life is a gift , it is just that i think that it is also appropriate to show ones appreciation and grattitude for that gift and for the guidance of any who lovingly teach us , ....
personaly I do not fel that I am running away , ...or that I am focusing entirely upon the self , and where ever l have the capacity to help eleviate suffering I will do that , ...if I had the recources to help eliviate suffering nothing would make me more happy but sadly the only recources I have at my disposal are my actions so to help aleviate suffering it is only possible for me to refrain from being the cause of suffering , ...all l can do is to help to promote right living , living that causes the least harm , .....
thank you , yes I know this ......
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Who said "do not participate in life'? If one does not participate in life, how is one going to fulfill one's 'dharma'? Again a little reading of SriMadBhagawadGita will be useful. "Mā karma-phala heturbhuh, mā sangostu akarmani'. Being inactive is not advocated in BhagawadGita. What is advocated is not to have attachment. "Yoga-sthah kuru karmāni, sangam tyaktvā Dhananjaya .."
What is so strange in this? Are we not all but Brahman? 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Ekameva adviteeyam', 'Aham Brahmāsmi', 'Tat twam asi', 'So Aham', 'Ayamātma Brahma'. Our scriptures have repeatedly said this. One only has to realize this.
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Jedster
Well-Known Member
I agree, however it can also be an outer expression of an inner experience.
Edited to add this after thought : also prostration may have some 'naturalness' to it as we are could be said to be prostrating in the womb.
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RamaRaksha
*banned*
yes there is no one true nice answer in life - life is not math - say you want to be a doctor, you think what a nice life - healing the sick, make good money and then you go talk to a doctor and he might say never make the mistake of becoming a doctor!
What you posted as the view of Reincarnation IS the popular view, is it not? As i have posted, life is harsh, difficult - we think we have it bad now, but today is paradise compared to what our ancestors suffered thru. You and i, if we went back a 1,000 years might not last a day! And from such harsh times came ideas of magic lands of plenty in the after life(heaven), ideas that christianity and Islam have used to divide people and preach hate
Hinduism alone differed - it asks us to come back - most Hindus again misunderstood - they thought it was some kind of punishment - a burden - we get rid of our bad karmas and off we go enjoy!
What i am trying to say is to see the beauty of it - Life is a Gift - Reincarnation is an opportunity - so is Life - in Life all you get is an opportunity, that's all, but your already know that and for some folks they don't even get that. But you and i are some of the lucky ones - we have been given the opportunity and so have millions of others - we can make use of this opportunity to make Life better for ALL - guess what make God Proud! To me that is what Moksha is all about
Freedom from reincarnation? Excuse me? you think after that there is a magic land of plenty just waiting for you to go sit and enjoy? Sir, that is just a fantasy - no such land exists - what you see is what you get - this is ALL there is. If you want freedom from reincarnation, God will not force life on you - you are free to not exist or you can also choose to have the life that you dream about
The life of a tree or a rock - the rock stays eternal (that is where christians and muslims are headed - they want the eternal life) - the rock doesn't get sick, nothing can harm it, it doesn't suffer - even after all humanity is gone, the sun explodes and the earth is burned out, the rocks will still be around
Choosing the life of a rock over the life of a human - what a waste
As for devotional service to God - to me this so-called "devotional service" is full of selfishness - it is all about how can i make myself happy? "If i pray to this God, he will be pleased and give me the good life" - all about me and I. How is God any different from a rich man? Praising a rich man in the hope that he will give you some money
"Manava Seva is Madhava Seva" - Try stopping thinking of yourself - there are so many unfortunate souls in this world - try helping them, try making this world a better place - that is true service to God. If you are a Child of God then what will make your parents happy? Do something that would make them proud of you? Would that be a nice thing to do?
As for things that i don't like in the Gita or Ramayana - when did i write that? All I have said is that there are plenty of contradictions in our holy books - the Vedas say one thing, the Upanishads say another - these books evolved over time - they were not all written by the same people - different people at different times with different ideas wrote these books
RamaRaksha
*banned*
Yes you are Brahman but so is a tiny grain of sand on the beach, so is a fly
There is more to it than just saying Aham Brahmasmi
You got the first part right about the Gita asking us to do Karma Yoga - even God Krishna says He needs to do nothing, He is God but even He does Karma Yoga. What Karma Yoga are you doing besides thinking of yourself and how to get away from this life?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yes. Well said.
Postration, bowing, kneeling in my opinion is an outward expression of an inner devotion. I dont know why its wrong but some cultures have different means of showing devotion so I can see some heads tilt.
RamaRaksha
*banned*
Looks like we are in agreement - hope i have given you a new perspective on life. As for showing one's appreciation - A dancer dancing in the Temple before God says, "See my Art, this is my Aradhana" - true Bhakti is not done with words, it is done with action. Try moving away from the Temple, away from the Murthi and see if you can help others, volunteer at a shelter - whether it is Karma Yoga or Bhakti Yoga or Gnana Yoga - none of these involve visiting a Temple. Stop thinking of yourself, what will make you happy - think of the unhappiness of others - share their pain - and as i have posted, the more the pain and suffering, the closer you will get to God
Last thing about kneeling - if you were to see your parents after a long time, what is the first thing you would do? Say, they have just come out of the train or airport, you go running to them and you do what? kneel? No, you go hug! God wants a hug from his Child, it is the slave that kneels. A Christian presidential candidate recently said that when Jesus comes down, everyone will kneel - Christianity and Islam are Master/Slave religions - they do not view God as a Parent/Teacher - they view God as a Master, they are slaves down on their knees, groveling before the master
Hinduism says we are better than that - your rightful place is God's lap - take your rightful place
RamaRaksha
*banned*
It's all about context. We are naked in the womb too - so let's all just drop our clothes and go about? In the womb, we were cared for, sheltered, protected but we can't stay children all our lives, at some point we have to grow up and the very same mother who protected us, cared for us, will now need our help - it is not our turn to care, shelter and protect the very same woman who did this to us
You can't apply the same rules to everything - that is where context comes in
RamaRaksha
*banned*
lol again with the including bowing with prostration and kneeling - have you done what i have asked? Knelt before your mother? Or how about prostrating before your boss, if you have one? I dare you to do it. Bowing, saying namaste, handshake, saying hi - are all forms of greetings - you can do those to anyone or everyone - no one will take offense or laugh at you - do the other two, and people will either laugh at you or mock you
As for different cultures - yes there are lots of different ideas of God and how to behave - as i have posted - Christianity and Islam made God in the image of their local King - the King was master of his land and these people see themselves as slaves/servants - it is natural for a servant to beg and grovel on his knees - see their Terminology - Commandments, Submit, beg, mercy, wrath, Fear - all Slave/Servant words - Recognize any of them in Buddhism? nope! None in Hinduism either. From slave minds come slave actions. Their goal is Heaven - a place to indulge in pleasures of the flesh and nothing more. Down on their knees begging for 3 square meals a day for eternity - that's where they end up
Is your goal Heaven or Moksha?
You can be a slave if that is how your view God - but don't expect God to be proud of you. If you view yourself as a Buddhist, the Buddha was a Teacher and that makes you a student - behave accordingly. You either stand or sit before the Teacher - and your back should be straight, not bent
RamaRaksha
*banned*
Sorry the words - "it is not our turn to care" - should read "it is now our turn to care"
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Ha. Just saying well said. In my culture we hug and say I love you. The way its said and done tells the recipent how the other feels.
Many Asian cultures bow or postrate insteadnof hugging. Personal affection among strangers is a no-no.
In other words, if I bowed in front of my mother, she would not associate that with anything religious. If I bowed or postrate in front an elder Korean here in my complex both actions are respectful.
You are talking about religious context. My mother isnt religious so youd have to give another example.
My whole point was what you said was well said. I can take that back if you like.
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Please read in context
Postration, bowing, kneeling in my opinion is an outward expression of an inner devotion. I dont know why its wrong but some cultures have different means of showing devotion so I can see some heads tilt.