1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hindu Creationism VS evolution

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by MiniBoglins, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. MiniBoglins

    MiniBoglins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    Hi,

    I am a hindu creationist, i follow all of michael cremo's works.

    A really good book of his

    "Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race ".

    Is anyone else familiar with his work?
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,919
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I've heard of his idea, claiming that humans have existed on earth for hundreds of millions of years, but because it flies in the face of current scientific understanding I'm curious as to what science has said about it. I assume you've read its rebuttals.
     
  3. Gunfingers

    Gunfingers Happiness Incarnate

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,357
    Ratings:
    +135
    As one could always expect from such an awesome site, Talkorigins has an article about this book.

    Hidden History, Hidden Agenda

    If you'd like me to sum up the article's review of the book in one sentence it'd be this: It's full of crap.
     
  4. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,859
    Ratings:
    +556
    Can't back you on this one bro.... How do you support this idea.
     
  5. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,859
    Ratings:
    +556
    I do believe that their might be a case that civilization might have existed earlier ( by just a few 1000 years). Please nobody argue with me on this one I am not defending this hypotheses. But, the idea of advanced civilizations that existed 100,000s of thousands of years ago. And people had the technology to shoot thermonuclear tipped arrows at each other I find just to be absurd. It is not the beliefs of any Hindu's I personally know. It is mostly Hindu fundamentalists that hold these views.
     
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,919
    Religion:
    Atheist
    As would be expected.

    And thanks for the link.
     
  7. MiniBoglins

    MiniBoglins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    Yes Cremo takes the Hindu scriptures as literally true especially the Vedas. He sees the Bhagvat Purana, Bhagvad Gita, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana as literal truth. This is not new it is not only "Hindu fundamentalists" taking this position. Look up Sri Aurobindo, Madame Blavatsky, Swami Vivekananda or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi they all were influenced by the hindu scriptures and taught types of creationism.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. MiniBoglins

    MiniBoglins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    You should buy the book, instead of pasting in a biased hateful review from an anti creationist website. The book is on amazon if you are interested. It is better to buy the book and read it for yourself then you can make an accurate decision for yourself.
     
  9. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    Can you provide examples of some of his evidence rather than making us buy the book?

    wa:do
     
  10. Nepenthe

    Nepenthe Tu Stultus Es

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    4,323
    Ratings:
    +1,183
    Talk Origins has a few different reviews of the book- all devastating. Michael Cremo is a pseudoscientist as was Richard Thompson. Their Vedic creationism has no merit- Forbidden Archaeology is a modern classic in nonsense. They use similar arguments that Christian creationists use but never actually cite the literature of course. Forbidden' is a huge book full of distortions of actual archaeological finds as well as one long argument from incredulity. They are fond of questioning oddly placed artifacts and fossils as evidence for antiquity or at the very least that scientists are part of some massive conspiracy to hide the “Truth”. It's the standard Christian creationist drivel.

    It has been a decade since I read Forbidden' but a cursory glance at the book shows they referred to the Venus of Willendorf as “Neolithic” when it’s actually Paleolithic. They credulously offer the Meister Print (an alleged sandal fossil print found in a middle Cambrian formation) as evidence. Unfortunately for their claim the print is not particularly convincing and is actually a spall pattern- a common consequence of weathering. There are plenty of other similar spall patterns in the Wheeler Formation near the Meister print and while the trilobite fossils are real, the sandal print claims are misinterpretations from credulous creationists.
    [​IMG]
    They trot out the usual creationist nonsense about the Laetoli footprints. The Laetoli prints clearly show evidence of bipedlaism and while the precise gait is hotly contested their small size, providence and dating techniques (the potassium argon method verified the ash below the footprints at about 3.7 mya and the ash above at 3.5 mya. which obviously supports them being Australopithecine in origin). It also raises the obvious question also as to why the 3.5 million year old Laetoli footprints were made by bare feet yet the Meister Print was found in a 500 million year old formation yet that individual wore sandals. Maybe the Laetoli crowd were nudists.

    They present the usual creationist misinterpretation and outright deception concerning radiometric dating, they use the red crag shell as evidence of human antiquity (it likely wasn't man made though some argue it was a hoax too) and defend the Foxhall Jaw and Calaveras Man as genuine (they were clearly hoaxes). See also: A modern human jaw found in geological deposits in Foxhall, England

    These guys are (or were in the case of Thompson) frauds, pseudoscientists and propagandists for their faith who specialize in spreading misinformation.
     
    #10 Nepenthe, Oct 26, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Gunfingers

    Gunfingers Happiness Incarnate

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,357
    Ratings:
    +135
    You want me to spend $30 on a book that real professionals in the field have already told me was bunk? You then want me to take time out of my valuable video game schedule to read this 900 page monster so i can judge for myself something i lack the training to properly judge? Pass.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,058
    Ratings:
    +11,919
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Often times people don't have the wherewithal---typically, education---to make good evaluations, and therefore rely on those better able to do so, such as archaeology and paleoanthropology professor, Dr. Bradley T. Lepper, author of the "biased hateful" review. But, of course, it's your choice to ignore those well educated in the field and instead cling to the pronouncements of mere highschool graduates, such as Michael Cremo. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,859
    Ratings:
    +556
    I know very little about Blavatsky (who is not a Hindu) or the Maharishi lets just say both are not my cup of tea.

    Aurobindo has talked in great detail about evolution. Even his creationism seems to have no need of a creator. Evolution follows Involution.

    Swami Vivekananda did see the Mahbharata and Ramayana as truth but not as History.

    Part of a speech he gave.

    (Delivered at the Shakespeare Club, Pasadena, California, February 1, 1900)

    The other epic about which I am going to speak to you this evening, is called the Mahâbhârata... This epic is the most popular one in India; and it exercises the same authority in India as Homer's poems did over the Greeks. As ages went on, more and more matter was added to it, until it has become a huge book of about a hundred thousand couplets. All sorts of tales, legends and myths, philosophical treatises, scraps of history, and various discussions have been added to it from time to time, until it is a vast, gigantic mass of literature; and through it all runs the old, original story.

    A discourse of Swami Vivekananda on Mahabharata - Articles about Mahabharata , Stories and Characters from Mahabharata, Mahabharatam in Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, Hindi..

    You can see he does not take it as literal history. It is more true then History. I think you have been mislead about the writings of both Swamiji and Aurobindo.

    You would be much better off reading Swami Vivekananda or Aurobindo then Cremo
     
    #13 Wannabe Yogi, Oct 27, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  14. MiniBoglins

    MiniBoglins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    Theres mixed views about Swami Vivekananda but from what you pasted in there, you could be right.

    Aurobindo did teach a type of evolution but this was a spiritual evolution sometimes called "Integral evolution" it is very different than materialistic darwin evolution and it was based on a creator (absolute) are you familiar with his theory of supermind? This is complicated stuff to type up but Sri Aurobindos main work was a book called the life divine you obviously know this. But It is clear from reading this book that Sri Aurdobindo did support a type of intelligent design he maps out his theories about how creation came about and what the nature of brahman (God) is.

    Maharishi Mahesh Yogi the founder of transcendental meditation was a very strong anti darwinist, he taught hindu creation science.

    Madame Blavatsky is where i first learnt hinduism from, i am from the west so to be specific i would probably label myself a "theosophist" i was not brought up as a Hindu, Mr Cremo calls his work "Vedic Creationism". Mr Cremo's work fits into theosophists works. What do you think about lost civilizations? Lost lands? Lost islands? Lost continents? Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu? Yes they were all real they all existed you even yourself said it is possible. There have been people living on earth for millions of years maybe even a billion. Think about how much evidence must be under the sea and under the earth? Clues are being found all the time. Forbidden Archeology is a book actually worth it's price, it brings up loads of anomalies which have been found which certainly do not fit into the standard view of the age of the earth and evolution, evolutionists have no answers to explain all these anomalies.
     
  15. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,859
    Ratings:
    +556
    Yes but, this is a philosophical question not a scientific one. I see my views much like Aurobindo (not that I am is his league because I am not) in the sense that consciousness is endemic to the cosmos and She is always evolving to expose it in a more complete way.
     
    #15 Wannabe Yogi, Oct 27, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  16. Nepenthe

    Nepenthe Tu Stultus Es

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    4,323
    Ratings:
    +1,183
    Are there any specific "anomalous" examples you find particularly convincing or even plausible? I gave several examples in post #10 of just how ridiculous the book is. Give me some examples of anomalies "evolutionists have no answers to explain". Forbidden Archaeology is worthless as a scientific text and an example of pseudoscience at its most pathetic- not unlike a Chariots of the Gods or anything by Graham Hancock.
     
  17. St Giordano Bruno

    St Giordano Bruno Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,375
    Ratings:
    +73
    I would like the ask a specific question, how old is the world according to Hindu creationism? A lot older than 6,000 years I suspect.
     
  18. MiniBoglins

    MiniBoglins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    If you look up Hindu Cosmology you will find the answer but in a nutshell. Most Hindu Creationists believe man has been living on earth for over 2 billion years. Remember Hinduism deals with cycles, Cremo believes the "day of Brahma" lasts 4.32 billion years. He also believes that the "current day of Brahma" began two billion years ago. There is an infinite number of deaths and rebirths in hinduism.
    Bramha's entire life equals 100 Brahma years which is 311 trillion, 40 billion years in human years. Once Bramha dies there is an equal period of unmanifestation for 311 trillion, 40 billion years, until the next Bramha is created.
     
  19. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,859
    Ratings:
    +556
    Some sects do not believe in creation. Those that do, the creation preservation and destruction of the universe is eternal. Creation means something total different then the western concept.
     
    #19 Wannabe Yogi, Oct 29, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
  20. MiniBoglins

    MiniBoglins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Ratings:
    +1
    Yes that is very true. There are some very strict nondual schools who say the earth is neither created nor uncreated. No point in discussing nonduality on this forum becuase most of the posts here are based around beliefs and isms but did you hear about the science and nondual conference? scienceandnonduality.com
     
Loading...