Hindu - Caste system = ?

[Wannabe Yogi]

But Veda Vyas was patrilineally descended from Rishi Vashishta who was one of the Saptarishis, so I don't think that could be used to convince others.

Ya but... He was the son of Satyavati a daughter of a ferryman or fisherman. For the folks who are into caste consciousness no Brahmins mother could be a sudra.

 

[p_shift90]

Thank you guys! I thought the concept of reincarnation began with the assertion that by doing what you were supposed to in regards to your caste you could move up in the next life; at least, that's what I was taught in my high school history class. I think maybe it's a flaw in the western perspective of eastern religious and social principles.

 

[Riverwolf]

Thank you guys! I thought the concept of reincarnation began with the assertion that by doing what you were supposed to in regards to your caste you could move up in the next life; at least, that's what I was taught in my high school history class. I think maybe it's a flaw in the western perspective of eastern religious and social principles.

Here's some advice: disregard (almost) everything you've learned in Elementary, Middle, and High School history classes: most of it is patriotic junk if it's about America, and one-sided and/or completely wrong information if it's about someone else.

The only time I would say not to disregard your lesson is if your teacher hardly ever touched your textbook.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Thank you guys! I thought the concept of reincarnation began with the assertion that by doing what you were supposed to in regards to your caste you could move up in the next life; at least, that's what I was taught in my high school history class. I think maybe it's a flaw in the western perspective of eastern religious and social principles.

You will find some Hindu’s still believe in the caste system to varying degrees. It was never a universally held belief. Caste by birth was not part of the beliefs of the early hindu scriptures. In fact they teach just the opposite. The Tantric scriptures talk about a fifth caste called samanya It is a hybrid class of all people and this is the Highist caste. The all you have to do is want to join up.

 

[Andal]

Thank you guys! I thought the concept of reincarnation began with the assertion that by doing what you were supposed to in regards to your caste you could move up in the next life; at least, that's what I was taught in my high school history class. I think maybe it's a flaw in the western perspective of eastern religious and social principles.

There is some truth to this if you look at it from Varnashrama. If you have the inclination to be a merchant in this life and you do that, following all the prescribed duties, then in your next life maybe you have the inclination to take on a leadership role. Then in the life after that, maybe you want to devote your time to God.

This is all based on inclination though and not birth. No matter what varna one is in though they can gain liberation in this life. They don't have to come back as a brahmin first.

 

[bansal2008]

Who/HOW would you conclude someone's VARNA in today's world?? Please provide answer.

 

[Andal]

Who/HOW would you conclude someone's VARNA in today's world?? Please provide answer.

Varna is based on inclination. It is determined by what a person does and how they behave. For example some one can be initiated as a brahmin in many religious groups. Or, some one may be apt at being a polition or career military person and thus would fall under the category of kshaitrya. This is how varna should work and does in some societies. The problem is jati is the primary understanding of caste in South Asia.

 

[Riverwolf]

Who/HOW would you conclude someone's VARNA in today's world?? Please provide answer.

I believe it is up to the individual to decide what his or her Varna is. (I also try not to believe that any role is better than another; all play important parts.)

 

[bansal2008]

Varna is based on inclination. It is determined by what a person does and how they behave. For example some one can be initiated as a brahmin in many religious groups. Or, some one may be apt at being a polition or career military person and thus would fall under the category of kshaitrya. This is how varna should work and does in some societies. The problem is jati is the primary understanding of caste in South Asia.

Thanks for replying. I am very well aware of the difference between jati and varna.
An individual should be classified in a particular class (varna) irrespective of his birth if he possesses the decisive characteristic of that class. One's class should be decided considering the holistic picture of the qualities of the class of the person and those of the other classes. - Shrimadbhagvat 7.21.35

But my question
Who is going to decide it? You cannot decide it yourself since you can be biased. Let's say you are a student. what would be the varna of the student.

According to the Arya Samaj, the varna of a student used to be decided after an education period of 14 years

This is what I read somewhere..
One has to be beyond the three components (gunatit) to recognise the qualities (gun) and actions (karma) of another. Only saints can do this.

 

[bansal2008]

I believe it is up to the individual to decide what his or her Varna is. (I also try not to believe that any role is better than another; all play important parts.)

An individual should be classified in a particular class (varna) irrespective of his birth if he possesses the decisive characteristic of that class. One's class should be decided considering the holistic picture of the qualities of the class of the person and those of the other classes. - Shrimadbhagvat 7.21.35

A person can be biased in his/her thinking and thus should not/cannot choose his/her varna.

 

[Breathe]

An individual should be classified in a particular class (varna) irrespective of his birth if he possesses the decisive characteristic of that class.

At what age is/should someone's varna be classified for the first time?
And, how often can one change one's varna? For example, if they suddenly become more interested in spiritual things instead of farming, how long do they have to wait to be classified as a member of the varna? Or is a varna not so much a social thing, but a personal, private thing?

 

[agorman]

Well if it's about caste... we westerners have many. Super-rich, rich, high middle class, middle class, low middle class, low class, homeless... If we're talking about religion and guiding ourselves strictly by scriptures, according to Matthew 26:11, Jesus supposedly said there will always be poor people.

About Sanskrit... yes, don't worry, it's a painful obstacle for me too. Maybe it's even more complicated for me, being Spanish my mother's tongue and having to deal with those horrible English transliterations. For example, a friend of mine that speaks Sanskrit, told me that your "jai" is not pronounced "jai" but "shay" . And it took me a while to find out that the English "yei" or "yay" ending it's just my "ié" (e.g. "Om Aim Saraswatyei Namaha" in Spanish would be "Om Áim Sarásvati-ié Namahá"). But the Gods are worth all of this.

Maybe we could take advantage of Navaratri now and ask the help of Sarásvati for help on learning Sanskrit... :candle:

 

[bp789]

How did practices such as caste by birth and untouchability start? Many people say that invasions by the Muslims and British are responsible for this, but I am still pretty skeptical. Nepal and Sri Lanka have a caste system and untouchability, and they were not invaded by the Muslims or British or didn't have much contact. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

How did practices such as caste by birth and untouchability start? Many people say that invasions by the Muslims and British are responsible for this, but I am still pretty skeptical. Nepal and Sri Lanka have a caste system and untouchability, and they were not invaded by the Muslims or British or didn't have much contact. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Caste became fixed over a long time. Indian Rulers at times ruled areas of Nepal even parts of cental Asia. Indians moved to Sri Lanka.

I do not believe that the Muslims or the British in any way caused the caste system. But, conquered cultures do not develop and grow. They stay stagnate and digress.

The story of Satyakama on comment 8 on this thread shows that caste was flexable early in Hindu History.