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Phew! How long have you got?For those of you within dogmatic religions, have you any heterodox beliefs? Not necessarily heretical. Or maybe just beliefs that are considered minority, even though acceptable?
Do share.
Ditto.Phew! How long have you got?
Some forms of Judaism accept reincarnation so I think you as a Christian could at least have that as a basis to do so.My commitment to Christian orthodoxy has been slipping precipitously for some time. I have come to question its sectarian claims to exclusive access to religious truth. God is bigger than any religious sect. I'm also sympathetic to the notion of reincarnation. I think the research that has gone into the supposed past-life memories of young children should not be dismissed out of hand.
I still very much believe in God and I still think Christianity is very much a valid pathway to communing with the divine. (I still identify as Christian). What I have come to question is the claim that any given religion has the whole picture.
I am aware of that. I'm not saying I definitely believe in reincarnation. I just can't bring myself to definitely reject it either.Some forms of Judaism accept reincarnation so I think you as a Christian could at least have that as a basis to do so.
If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, on what grounds to you claim to be a Christian? Just curious.I don’t believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins
I don’t believe in a trinity of persons
I don’t believe you can be saved by faith alone
I don’t believe in Adam and Eve
I don’t believe the earth was flooded
I don’t believe in a second coming
I don’t believe the Bible is inerrant
I don’t believe the Bible is literal
I don’t believe Christianity, in general, represents the Lord’s church
I don’t believe in tithing to religions
I don’t believe angels are created beings
that should be enough for now
If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, on what grounds to you claim to be a Christian? Just curious.
Thank you for answering. Your views are very interesting.There is an alternative view, it holds that the whole purpose of creation is for the Incarnation, God's sharing of life and love in a unique and definitive way. God becoming human is not an afterthought, an event to make up for Original Sin and human sinfulness.
From this perspective, God is not an angry or vindictive God, demanding the suffering and death of Jesus as a payment for past sin. God is, instead, a gracious God, sharing divine life and love in creation and in the Incarnation.
The Prologue of John's Gospel (1:1-18) gives us this magnificent vision, proclaiming that all creation came to be in the Word, God's self-expression who became flesh, Jesus.
John's meditation on God's supreme act of love in the Incarnation (also see 3:16) has led some theologians to consider that this event alone was sufficient to save the world. John's Gospel does not see Jesus' death as a ransom (unlike the synoptic Gospels, for example, Mark 10:45), nor does it use the language of sacrifice or atonement. There is, instead, emphasis on friendship, intimacy, mutuality, service, faithful love—revealing God's desire and gift for the full flourishing of humanity, or in other words, salvation (see the Farewell Address, John 13:1—17:26). Jesus' crucifixion (usually described as being "lifted up") is part of his "hour" of glorification, which also includes his resurrection and ascension. For John, this hour is not sacrifice but epiphany.
This thread may be somewhat helpful Atonement theories. | Religious ForumsThank you for answering. Your views are very interesting.
Actually John does consider the crucifixion to be a sacrifice -- he has Jesus being depicted as the Lamb of God. He even changes the day of Jesus' death to the day BEFORE Passover (unlike the synoptics) in order to line his death up with the sacrifice of the Passover lambs.
I'd like to hear from Christians on what you have said, whether one is a Christian when one does not believe Jesus died for the sins of the world.
Christ means Messiah. So Christian means believing Jesus is Messiah. He was killed like many others but his message of love, faith and inner transformation is salvific for humanity.If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, on what grounds to you claim to be a Christian? Just curious.
Wait. Is it his *message* that saves, or his sacrificial death? Because in all my lifelong associations with Christians, it has always been the latter.Christ means Messiah. So Christian means believing Jesus is Messiah. He was killed like many others but his message of love, faith and inner transformation is salvific for humanity.
For those of you within dogmatic religions, have you any heterodox beliefs? Not necessarily heretical. Or maybe just beliefs that are considered minority, even though acceptable?
Do share.
If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, on what grounds to you claim to be a Christian? Just curious.
I'd like to hear from Christians on what you have said, whether one is a Christian when one does not believe Jesus died for the sins of the world.
This is all very fascinating. Thank you for sharing. I've never heard such a thing before and so it is very interesting to me.It is a view held by the Franciscans. There is a German bishop, criticized by conservatives when he publicly stated this view;
The Chairman of the German Bishops' Conference and archbishop of Freiburg, Robert Zollitsch, believes that Christ’s crucifixion is just a psychological support for those who suffer.
On Holy Saturday, the archbishop denied the Expiatory Death of Christ in an interview with the German TV station 'Hessischer Rundfunk'. Christ "did not die for the sins of the people as if God had needed a sacrificial offering or something like a scapegoat" - the archbishop said.
According to him the dying Christ simply expressed "solidarity" with the suffering of the people even to death. This way, Christ showed, the archbishop said, that even suffering and pain have been taken up by God.
According to Zollitsch "this is the great perspective, the tremendous solidarity," that Christ went so far that he suffered all "with" me.
He stated that God has given "his own son in solidarity with us unto his last agony” to show that: You mean so much to me that I go with you, and I am totally with you in every situation."
"Christ has become involved with me out of solidarity – out of free will" – the archbishop repeated in the interview.
Yet another view opposed to a bloody sacrifice;
The German biblical scholar Hartmut Gese claimed that the todah stands behind what Jesus did at the Last Supper. He goes so far as to argue that Jesus' giving thanks over the bread and wine came in the context of a todah sacrifice rather than a Passover meal. However, no other Scripture scholars have followed Gese's theory about the todah backdrop of Jesus' meal, because the evidence for the Passover in the Gospel narratives is overwhelming but its an interesting theory.
I leave it to you for a Jewish insight as to the Todah.
A todah sacrifice would be offered by someone whose life had been delivered from great peril, such as disease or the sword. The redeemed person would show his gratitude to God by gathering his closest friends and family for a todah sacrificial meal. The lamb would be sacrificed in the Temple and the bread for the meal would be consecrated the moment the lamb was sacrificed. The bread and meat, along with wine, would constitute the elements of the sacred todah meal, which would be accompanied by prayers and songs of thanksgiving, such as Psalm 116.
"In the coming Messianic age all sacrifices will cease, but the thank offering [todah] will never cease."
After David had defeated the last Canaanite stronghold, he decided to bring the ark of the covenant up to Jerusalem. The bringing of the ark to Jerusalem was the occasion of a great national todah festival. The sacrifices were "peace offerings," and the todah was the most important and common peace offering. All the elements of the todah were present. For example, David offered bread and wine along with the meat of the sacrifices (1 Chron. 16:3). Most importantly, David had the Levites lead the people in todah hymns, that is, psalms of thanksgiving (1 Chron. 16:8-36).
The Last Supper celebrated in the upper room is both a Passover and a todah meal. The Passover has all the same elements found in the todah: bread, wine, and sacrifice of a lamb, along with hymns and prayers. Hallel psalms (113-118), that were sung during the Passover meal were all todah psalms! The Exodus narrative itself has the basic contours of a todah hymn, with Israel in distress and lament calling out to the Lord (cf. Ex. 2:23-25), while the Lord in turn hears their cry and delivers them (cf. Ex. 6:5-7). The Passover has both the form and content of the todah, because it is a concrete example of a todah sacrifice.
Are you asking about my (heterodox) belief or established theology?Wait. Is it his *message* that saves, or his sacrificial death? Because in all my lifelong associations with Christians, it has always been the latter.
If it is his message, what exactly is that message?
I personally think the historical Jesus taught Torah, although he argued with other Pharisees about its interpretation, as is Jewish tradition to do. If you stick with just that, then yes, it goes along with Torah.
But the Jesus of the gospels made many other claims, for example, to be the Messiah, the "only begotten" son of God, etc.; claims that are irreconcilable with the Tanakh.
Furthermore, Paul's theology is clearly one of Jesus' death being redemptive. Perhaps you are a person who claims to accept teh Gospels, but not Paul's epistles?