Henry VIII Founding the Anglican Church

[Doodlebug02]

Hi everyone. Someone told me that I should not join the Anglican Church because Henry VIII founded the Catholic Church because he could not get a divorce in the Catholic Church. How do I refute such reasoning?

 

[lunamoth]

Hi everyone. Someone told me that I should not join the Anglican Church because Henry VIII founded the Catholic Church because he could not get a divorce in the Catholic Church. How do I refute such reasoning?

First I don't understand what that would have to do with your choice to join the Episcopal Church even if it came close to capturing the reality of the history of the Anglican Communion (which is does not). Did your friend say why he thought this was important? If you think that the authority of the papacy is important, then perhaps this move is not right for you now, or it needs more consideration. No need to be hasty.

Second, if it is of a concern to you the best thing to do is learn the history the Church of England, Anglican Communion, and the Episcopal Church. Good info is always your best retort to accusations like that. It good to know this history anyway, even if you are not worried about refuting dumb statements like the above from others.

Third, if this statement worries you perhaps it would be a good thing to learn more in general about the Episcopal Church, how we are organized, what we believe, how we worship. From what I have learned there is no religion, much less any flavor of Christianity, that has a history as pure the driven snow. There's corruption, politics, greed, incompetence, you name it in the history of every one. Every religion is made up of people and people are fallible, we are sinners. Even Peter, the disciple upon whom Jesus built His Church, was fallible; he denied Jesus three times.

What do you find in the church today? That is what is important.

Here is a good intro website: Episcopal Chruch

Also, I found a little book by Christopher L. Webber called "Welcome to the Episcopal Chruch" to be a good intro book, it even has a history overview.

When you read it you will find that yes, Henry the VIII had a disagreement with the Pope that resulted in the split between the Church in England and Rome. The straw that broke the camel's back, and the fact that gets the most air-time, is that the Pope would not allow Henry to get a divorce. However, it should be noted that there were other political maneuverings going on (from both sides) before it got to that issue, and the Pope granted annulments to others in those days...it's not like Henry VIII was the first person associated with the Catholic Church to ever request an annulment.

Here's a rather nasty thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47315 in which you can see some of these points being debated.

Hope some of this helps.

Best wishes Holly,
luna

 

[Doodlebug02]

First I don't understand what that would have to do with your choice to join the Episcopal Church even if it came close to capturing the reality of the history of the Anglican Communion (which is does not). Did your friend say why he thought this was important? If you think that the authority of the papacy is important, then perhaps this move is not right for you now, or it needs more consideration. No need to be hasty.

Second, if it is of a concern to you the best thing to do is learn the history the Church of England, Anglican Communion, and the Episcopal Church. Good info is always your best retort to accusations like that. It good to know this history anyway, even if you are not worried about refuting dumb statements like the above from others.

Third, if this statement worries you perhaps it would be a good thing to learn more in general about the Episcopal Church, how we are organized, what we believe, how we worship. From what I have learned there is no religion, much less any flavor of Christianity, that has a history as pure the driven snow. There's corruption, politics, greed, incompetence, you name it in the history of every one. Every religion is made up of people and people are fallible, we are sinners. Even Peter, the disciple upon whom Jesus built His Church, was fallible; he denied Jesus three times.

What do you find in the church today? That is what is important.

Here is a good intro website: Episcopal Chruch

Also, I found a little book by Christopher L. Webber called "Welcome to the Episcopal Chruch" to be a good intro book, it even has a history overview.

When you read it you will find that yes, Henry the VIII had a disagreement with the Pope that resulted in the split between the Church in England and Rome. The straw that broke the camel's back, and the fact that gets the most air-time, is that the Pope would not allow Henry to get a divorce. However, it should be noted that there were other political maneuverings going on (from both sides) before it got to that issue, and the Pope granted annulments to others in those days...it's not like Henry VIII was the first person associated with the Catholic Church to ever request an annulment.

Here's a rather nasty thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47315 in which you can see some of these points being debated.

Hope some of this helps.

Best wishes Holly,
luna

Thank you luna. I honestly do not like the idea of a papacy which is one reason why I am becoming Anglican. I honestly do not see why this issue should prevent me from becoming Anglican but the guy who mentioned this seems to think it is a huge issue.

 

[sojourner]

The basis for this person's fear appears to come out of the thought that the basis for the Anglican Church is apostate -- that is, that it is a departure from the apostles' teaching.

However, if one looks more closely at what really happened, one will see that the Pope was as much at fault as Henry (and Thomas Cranmer). Catherine of Aragon was first married to Henry's older brother as a political move to bring Spain and England closer. When the older brother died before producing an heir, Henry's father (then king of England) petitioned Rome for a dispensation for Henry to marry Catherine, so that an heir could be produced. The Pope granted the dispensation, even though the marriage was clearly in violation of canon law.

From the beginning of their marriage, there was always a question of whether the marriage was licit. Henry's petition for an annulment really had more to do with conscience than with the need for a male heir. That little fact always seems to get covered up by the "nay-sayers."

Thomas Cranmer (first Archbishop of Canterbury in the protestant C of E) believed that the marriage was never licit, and that the Pope should, on that basis, grant the annulment. However, since Catherine's cousin had the Pope under his thumb at that time, the Pope thought it best to remain taciturn on the issue, leaving Henry no alternative but to "fix the problem" himself.

Henry did not "found" the Church in England. He merely created a political schism that allowed the Church to become a self-governing entity, such as it is today. We will never know definitively whether Henry's marriage was licit or not, and it really has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. What is important to note is that the Anglican Church has as much claim to the apostolic succession as do the Romans and the Orthodox.

 

[Halcyon]

Henry did not "found" the Church in England. He merely created a political schism that allowed the Church to become a self-governing entity, such as it is today. We will never know definitively whether Henry's marriage was licit or not, and it really has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. What is important to note is that the Anglican Church has as much claim to the apostolic succession as do the Romans and the Orthodox.

The schism was there before the founding of the CofE by Henry VIII, it began when the Bible was first translated (illegally) into English and allowed people to learn the faith for themselves without Catholic intermediaries.
Henry did found the Church, and Elizabeth I defined what it is, a fusion of Catholicism and Protestantism.

I think it's important to remember that our Monarchy claims its power and authority originate directly from God. Henry, as God's ordained ruler, was perfectly entitled to alter the Church structure of his Kingdom, especially with a growing force of his people questioning Papal authority.

 

[sojourner]

The schism was there before the founding of the CofE by Henry VIII, it began when the Bible was first translated (illegally) into English and allowed people to learn the faith for themselves without Catholic intermediaries.
Henry did found the Church, and Elizabeth I defined what it is, a fusion of Catholicism and Protestantism.

I think it's important to remember that our Monarchy claims its power and authority originate directly from God. Henry, as God's ordained ruler, was perfectly entitled to alter the Church structure of his Kingdom, especially with a growing force of his people questioning Papal authority.

Quite right. But the schism was one of ideology first, that is, Protestant vs. Catholic. What Henry did was not to create a brand new organization, with brand new beliefs. What Henry altered was "Who's in charge here -- me or the Pope?" Henry created a more politically-oriented schism that allowed the fusion to take place. Anglicans assert that Christ founded the Church -- not Henry.

 

[kateyes]

I think it is stretching it just a bit to say Henry VIII had Protestant leanings and the basis for his split from the Catholic Church was ideological.

Henry and his father had to petition and received a dispensation from the Catholic Church for Henry to marry Catherine of Aragon in 1509. In 1521 the pope conferred on Henry VIII the title of Defender of the Faith for writing (with Sir Thomas More), the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum Martinum Lutherum (Declaration of the Seven Sacraments Against Martin Luther). It is interesting to note that "Defender of the Faith" is still part of the English monarch's titles.

By the end of the 1520s, Henry's wife was in her forties, and unlikely to bear more children, and Henry really needed a male heir. In addition he had fallen in love/lust with Anne Boleyn, who was holding out for marriage. Henry and his closest advisor Cardinal Wolsey tried to persuade the Pope to annul of his marriage on the grounds that it had never been legal. However since a previous Pope had specifically granted Henry a dispensation to marry his brother's widow in 1509--this whole legallity issue got very tricky. In addtion the current Pope was under the protection of the King of Spain--who just happened to be Catherine of Aragon's nephew.

Cardinal Wolsey continued negotiations until 1529--when Henry got fed up and dismissed Wolsey having him arrested of what were surely trumped up charges. Wolsey died before he could be tried.

Since they weren't getting anywhere with the Pope, Wolsey's eventual successor Thomas Cromwell (Henry's chief adviser from 1532 onwards) turned to Parliament, using its powers and anti-clerical attitude (encouraged by the excesses of the Catholic Church and a growing interest in Protestanism in England) to decide the issue.

A series of Acts cutting back papal power and influence in England were passed by Pariliment and the English Reformation began.

In 1532, an Act against Annates passed that was a clear warning to the Pope that ecclesiastical revenues were under threat.

In 1532, Cranmer was made Archbishop of Canterbury and, after the Pope confirmed the appointment in 1533 Cranmer declared Henry's marriage invalid, Henry and Anne Boleyn were married a week later.

The Pope answered by excommunicating Henry and the inhabitants of England. Parliament followed by passing a law supporting Henry's break with the Roman Catholic Church. They also passed a law forbidding appeals to the Pope and Rome, essentially saying that England was an empire, governed by one supreme head and king who possessed 'whole and entire' authority within the realm, and that no judgements or excommunications from Rome were valid.

An Act of Submission of the Clergy and an Act of Succession followed, together with an Act of Supremacy (1534) which recognised that the king was 'the only supreme head of the Church of England called Anglicana Ecclesia'.

The English people were forced to choose between the king and the Pope. Lords of the realm were called to London to pledge thier Allegiance to Kind and country. Those who refused were considered traitors-and many were executed, including Sir Thomas More--who had helped Henry write the Defence of Faith in 1521.

The English Protestant Reformation also resulted in the the Dissolution of Monasteries, as a result monastic lands and possessions of the Roman Catholic Church were broken up and sold off, with all the revenues going to the Crown.

I think it would be fair to say--Henry's personal agenda and his quest for a male heir-plus the additional revenues--had far more to do with the founding of the Anglican Church than any great ideologic leanings on Henry's part.

 

[sojourner]

"For five years, the King's ever-tender conscience had been troubling him over the validity of his marriage. He believed that he, good son of the Church that he was, had sinned by taking in wedlock his brother's wife, and that their lack of a male heir was proof of God's displeasure."

Alison Weir, Henry VIII, the King and His Court, 2001, Ballantine Corp., P. 269

 

[applewuud]

All of the legal points about Henry the VIII are interesting and valid, but in reality, they are a top-down view of the situation IMHO. The churches in England and Ireland were island churches, established for centuries before the Norman invasion and isolated geographically and politically from Rome. As such, faith and practice of Christianity in what is now the Anglican Church was, in a way, more traditional and true to the early church while the Catholic church in southern Europe went in a different direction, arguably.

In the 13th and 14th centuries as Europe came out of the Dark Ages and lines of communication and control improved, there was more friction between these two strains of thought. If the parish priests all over England hadn't felt like their tradition was more authentic than that coming in from Rome, I doubt that Henry could have gotten away with the schism, no matter who he wanted to marry.

Of course, there were groups of clergy loyal to Rome, and that's why the great cathedral complex in Glastonbury in the southwest of England was destroyed by Henry's troops, not to mention the problems with Ireland and the back-and-forth of the kings and queens following Henry (thank you for your detailed history, kateyes!)

But that's the ultimate logic behind Anglican authority, that the Church separated to remain true to the apostolic tradition brought there around 500 AD, not just because the king wanted an heir. The king wanting an heir was just the spark to gunpowder that was already there.

 

[Smoke]

Hi everyone. Someone told me that I should not join the Anglican Church because Henry VIII founded the Catholic Church because he could not get a divorce in the Catholic Church. How do I refute such reasoning?

That's pretty much like saying you shouldn't join the Catholic Church because Pope Clement VII provoked the English Reformation through his subservience to Emperor Charles V. Neither side was wholly blameless or wholly at fault.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

But that's the ultimate logic behind Anglican authority, that the Church separated to remain true to the apostolic tradition brought there around 500 AD, not just because the king wanted an heir. The king wanting an heir was just the spark to gunpowder that was already there.

The Roman legions reported monastic Christians in Celtic Britain prior to the year 200
The Roman catholic Church was not established here until St Augustin's mission in 597.
It was not till after this that the two churches came together under the rule of the Pope.
The earliest Form of the Celtic church seems to have followed the Egyptian monastic rule.
Even today Celtic areas use the circled cross as used by the early Coptic's in Egypt.

The eventual leaving the Roman fold in Henry's time does not break the earlier apostolic succession,
which pre-dates most western churches, may be even of Rome.
To join the Anglican Church is to join an exceedingly ancient tradition.
This we feel has both preserved the best of the ancient Church but added the best of the modern understandings.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Holly... there are a number of churches in the USA that call them selves either Anglican or Episcopal who are not in communion with us...
You will find a list here...http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19332
some of them are very strange indeed, But we have no copyright on those two words.