Have you known anyone who was an atheist because they didn't want to obey god?

[Jay M. Brewer]

Have you never met or spoken to an atheist? The whole of that post is an insult! How dare you call me not moral. What depraved things do you think I do?
I have more morals, as do most of my atheist friends than 90% of the religious people I know.
I do not condemn homosexuals, I don't deny women equal rights and choices, I don't seek forgiveness by bowing and invoking an invisible being. If I mess up, I face up to the consequences, apologise to the person and accept the blame. No 'Hail Marys' or similar for me.

You need to get a life and meet people outside the box, you give religion a bad name.

Sorry for the rant but what you said was despicable and if that is what religious people really think then you are more hateful than any atheist I know.

Wait.....how do atoms make morals?

 

[Altfish]

Wait.....how do atoms make morals?

They don't.
Your life experiences give you morals along with empathy and doing what is right.

 

[exchemist]

Wait.....how do atoms make morals?

Don't be silly. Morality is a construct of all human societies, for the sake of harmony in the community. Often, historically, this has been associated with religious beliefs of one sort or another. But it is stupid rhetoric to say that an atheist cannot be moral because "atoms don't make morals".

 

[Altfish]

Don't be silly. Morality is a construct of all human societies, for the sake of harmony in the community.

It comes from evolution, those family members with the best empathy and working for harmony are the most successful.

 

[crossfire]

It comes from evolution, those family members with the best empathy and working for harmony are the most successful.

Not really. Much of the patriarchal values that persist today were based on "might makes right." (The practice of raiding settlements, killing all the men and carrying the women off to be sex slaves. Any children of the sex slaves were also slaves. And who ruled the slaves? The father. Patriarchy = "Rule of the Father")

 

[exchemist]

Not really. Much of the patriarchal values that persist today were based on "might makes right." (The practice of raiding settlements, killing all the men and carrying the women off to be sex slaves. Any children of the sex slaves were also slaves. And who ruled the slaves? The father. Patriarchy = "Rule of the Father")

What bearing does this have on how concepts of morality developed in human societies?

 

[Orbit]

As everyone knows, there are more false notions of why atheists become atheists than their are exaggerated tales of sexual prowess in a high school boy's locker room.

Seems to me one of those ideas -- an idea that is popular in some quarters -- is to believe that people become atheists to escape any demands a god might put upon them.

But the idea strikes me as flawed. For one thing, it seems to contradict itself: How could someone both not believe in a god, and also feel a need to escape from that god? So far as I can see, that's a "locker room idea".

That doesn't mean it could not happen, but I wonder whether someone who was that slow running of a faucet could properly be said to comprehend well enough what atheism is to actually be called an atheist?

I just did a literature review on why people leave Christianity and become atheists. Here are the top reasons, and none of them are "wanting to escape God":

1. They find the Bible is not inerrant (science contradicts it; internal inconsistencies; authorship problems)
2. God's failure to answer prayer
3. Loss of religious experience (God doesn't "talk back to them")
4. The problem of evil (Why did God create evil/illogic)
5. The problem of Hell vs a loving God
6. Church stances on women and sexuality

 

[crossfire]

What bearing does this have on how concepts of morality developed in human societies?

Morality is the distinction between right behaviour and wrong behaviour with an society, no? Well, being a captured sex slave is a society of captured sex slaves would pretty much dictate right behaviour and wrong behaviour for the sex slaves, no?

 

[exchemist]

Morality is the distinction between right behaviour and wrong behaviour with an society, no? Well, being a captured sex slave is a society of captured sex slaves would pretty much dictate right behaviour and wrong behaviour for the sex slaves, no?

No. Why would being a captured sex slave dictate right and wrong behaviour?

Being a sex slave would not tell you whether it was right or wrong to steal, or cheat at cards, or invent lies about a fellow slave, or any of the thousands of moral issues that come up in daily life.

Do you imagine that a sex-trafficked prostitute today has no morals, because of their unhappy state? Don't be silly.

 

[crossfire]

No. Why would being a captured sex slave dictate right and wrong behaviour?

Being a sex slave would not tell you whether it was right or wrong to steal, or cheat at cards, or invent lies about a fellow slave, or any of the thousands of moral issues that come up in daily life.

Do you imagine that a sex-trafficked prostitute today has no morals, because of their unhappy state? Don't be silly.

The cultural hierarchy informs right behavior and wrong behavior within the culture, and therefore informs the cultural morals. (Using the definition of morals being what is considered to be right behavior and wrong behavior. Morality differs from ethics.)

 

[exchemist]

The cultural hierarchy informs right behavior and wrong behavior within the culture, and therefore informs the cultural morals. (Using the definition of morals being what is considered to be right behavior and wrong behavior. Morality differs from ethics.)

How does this deal with my example of the sex slave cheating at cards? How would his or her condition affect what they would consider right or wrong behaviour in this case?

And what about the sex-traficked prostitute? What example can you give, to show that her morality is determined by her condition of life?

 

[crossfire]

How does this deal with my example of the sex slave cheating at cards? How would his or her condition affect what they would consider right or wrong behaviour in this case?

And what about the sex-traficked prostitute? What example can you give, to show that her morality is determined by her condition of life?

If you check my post, (#45) my original response was to Altfish's post, not yours.
Have you known anyone who was an atheist because they didn't want to obey god?

 

[exchemist]

If you check my post, (#45) my original response was to Altfish's post, not yours.
Have you known anyone who was an atheist because they didn't want to obey god?

So? This is a discussion forum, not a private conversation, and you have had no objection to replying to me up to this point. Do I take it you can't support your contention with any examples?

 

[crossfire]

So? This is a discussion forum, not a private conversation, and you have had no objection to replying to me up to this point. Do I take it you can't support your contention with any examples?

My point was that cultural morality does not always "come from evolution, those family members with the best empathy and working for harmony are the most successful." as Altfish asserted, and I gave an example. My giving such an example in no way asserts that all morality comes from that single source I listed (as evidenced by my use of the limiting terms "not really" and "much.") Your example of a sex slave cheating at cards does not derive from the same source I cited. As for a specific example, one would be expecting a wife to be obedient to her husband, and considering it to be immoral for a wife to not be obedient. Another example would be the cultural assertion that it is moral to beat your wife, as she is a slave--your property.

 

[exchemist]

My point was that cultural morality does not always "come from evolution, those family members with the best empathy and working for harmony are the most successful." as Altfish asserted, and I gave an example. My giving such an example in no way asserts that all morality comes from that single source I listed (as evidenced by my use of the limiting terms "not really" and "much.") As for a specific example, one would be expecting a wife to be obedient to her husband, and considering it to be immoral for a wife to not be obedient.

OK I have have no problem with the idea that there will be plenty of influences all combining to define what is thought to be moral. And, as you point out, some of those influences may derive from the self-interest of the dominant members or groups within the society. A real example would seem to be the veiling of women in many muslim cultures.

What I was taking exception to was when you said that being a "captured sex slave in a society of captured sex slaves would pretty much dictate right behaviour and wrong behaviour for the sex slaves". If you what meant was that it would dictate their sexual behaviour, then of course no one could disagree. I was saying I don't believe their morality as a whole would be dictated by it.

 

[crossfire]

OK I have have no problem with the idea that there will be plenty of influences all combining to define what is thought to be moral. And, as you point out, some of those influences may derive from the self-interest of the dominant members or groups within the society. A real example would seem to be the veiling of women in many muslim cultures.

What I was taking exception to was when you said that being a "captured sex slave in a society of captured sex slaves would pretty much dictate right behaviour and wrong behaviour for the sex slaves". If you what meant was that it would dictate their sexual behaviour, then of course no one could disagree. I was saying I don't believe their morality as a whole would be dictated by it.

Well yes, since a given culture has numerous influences for its set of morals, so would a given individual also have numerous influences for their personal set of morals.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This might be true for some Christians, as admittedly some Christians are evil people that to their credit dislike their mentality and use God to try to become good (rather than use religion to excuse and further their evil). These Christians see God as a supernatural cure that can change their psychology.

I’ve never met anyone like this. In my experience, it’s rare to meet someone whose God disagrees with them on right and wrong.

 

[Glaurung]

Believing in a god is the easiest option for sinners because many religions have formal forgiveness procedures. e.g. Roman Catholics go about raping and pillaging, turn up at confession and hey presto! you are forgiven.

Confession without contrition would fall under the sin of presumption.

Presumption is here considered as a vice opposed to the theological virtue of hope. It may also be regarded as a product of pride. It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God's mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Presumption

 

[Altfish]

Confession without contrition would fall under the sin of presumption.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Presumption

So you go the next week and confess the sin of presumption.

 

[Glaurung]

So you go the next week and confess the sin of presumption.

Presumption precludes contrition. Contrition is a prerequisite of repentance. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

Of course, there is no depth from which God will not pull a genuine penitent. With grace even a presumptuous heart can change. Repentance is key.