Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?

[Kathryn]

Unless you've figured out a way to take it with you, your wealth is certain to be redistributed when you die. Your right to decide exactly how it will be redistributed is not unlimited.

If I inherit $5 million and pay $500,000 in estate taxes, I'm $4,500,000 better off than before. Where's the penalty?

If I win $100 million in the lottery and pay $50,000,000 in income taxes, will you feel sorry for me?

On the bright side, if estate taxes really bother you, you can always arrange to die this year. Unlimited exemption from estate taxes, this year only. If you die next year, the feds will tax your estate over $1 million.

Hey, trust me - if I inherited $5 million and only had to pay $500,000 I'd be thrilled - and who wouldn't be? However, the tax rate is much higher than that - sorry.

The tax on $5 million is 45%. In 2011 the max rate will go to 55%.
And here's my question - how is that justified? How is it right and decent for the government to take that?

Also keep in mind that the year in which a person receives an inheritance of anything over about $10,000 , their own personal tax rate will be significantly increased - in other words, they will owe the IRS more taxes on the money they earned that year.

Also - this is the rate that is in ADDITION to the other applicable federal taxes imposed on the inheritance ("earnings" taxes), so the rate is actually higher than 44/55%.

And this is only the FEDERAL taxes - I haven't included state taxes, which vary from state to state,

I'm not saying it wouldn't be great to still be left with one million dollars - sure it would be. But my question is how is such an exorbitant tax justified? Keep in mind that the parents have already earned and paid taxes on that money.

As for winning the lottery - that's hardly the same as inheriting a farm that's been in your family for generations - the house that your great grandfather built with his own hands, in which your grandfather and father were born, the barns that you played in as a child, the ponds that you swam in with your cousins.

The discussion was on estate taxes, not lottery winnings.

From Wikipedia:

"While it may be true that the receiver of wealth may not have a direct moral claim to that wealth, those opposed to the estate tax would argue that logically, neither does anyone else. The moral argument would further assert that the rights to that wealth lie with the deceased person, the person who earned it originally and who paid taxes on it continually while living. The rights lie with the deceased to dispose of his or her wealth as he or she sees fit, whether that disposition be in the form of a charitable gift, a check to the government, or a gift to a chosen heir."

Families shouldn't be required to visit the undertaker and the tax collector on the same day.

Estate tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the death tax being at 0 this year - guess what - it goes to 55% in 2011. Frankly, I much prefer to pay the higher rate and have my parents around for a lot longer, but damn that's highway robbery!

Furthermore, if the government passes this bill for 2011 - GUESS WHAT - it's constitutional and PROBABLE that they will make it RETROACTIVE - meaning that the break families got this year will be taken back with a 55% vengeance.

Let's put this in real terms and quit talking about millions - which most people won't inherit. Let's talk about a modest inheritance of $60,000 which is not an unusual amount to inherit from parents.

You will pay $13,400 in federal estate taxes on that money. In addition to that, you will probably pay state taxes. For example, in Ohio that would be another $1400 - so now you're up to $14,800. So you're at about 20% now, right? Now - add that $80,000 to your taxable income for the year - hmmmm, what tax bracket are you in now? Somewhere between the 27 and 33% tax bracket - at LEAST. Hmmmm...So that estate gets taxed AGAIN - and your own earnings get taxed AGAIN.

And remember, dad already paid taxes on that money and it's earnings when he opened up that CD.

BUY FIXED RATE ANNUITIES! They can't be taxed again upon death.

 

[Kathryn]

In other words, you've completely gone off the deep end, and now you equate all taxes with communism? I guess that's what happens when you spend too much time at Tea Parties.

No, mball - I don't believe that all taxes are indicative of communism, silly boy.

I am opposed to excessive taxation and excessive redistribution of wealth at the point of a gun.

 

[Smoke]

The tax on $5 million is 45%.

Depends on when you die. The exempt amount for 2009 was $3.5 million, and the balance would be taxed at 45% = $675,000.

For 2010, the estate tax is zero.

In 2011, the exempt amount is $1 million and the balance would be taxed at 55% = $2.2 million.

I do agree that 55% or even 45% is excessive. I also think this arbitrary and radical swing in rates over three consecutive years is absurd.

 

[Magic Man]

No, mball - I don't believe that all taxes are indicative of communism, silly boy.

Then I guess you misspoke.

I am opposed to excessive taxation and excessive redistribution of wealth at the point of a gun.

Of course. Everyone is opposed to excessive taxation. The question is "what is excessive taxation". I don't think taxing someone's money/assets when it's given to someone else when they die as long as it's over a certain amount (like $1-2 million) by 45% is excessive.

"Redistribution of wealth" is a term like death panels that should go away. It's silly, as is your hyperbole of "at the point of a gun".

 

[Magic Man]

Depends on when you die. The exempt amount for 2009 was $3.5 million, and the balance would be taxed at 45% = $675,000.

For 2010, the estate tax is zero.

In 2011, the exempt amount is $1 million and the balance would be taxed at 55% = $2.2 million.

I do agree that 55% or even 45% is excessive. I also think this arbitrary and radical swing in rates over three consecutive years is absurd.

Why do you insist on using specific numbers and facts?

I don't think 45-55% is excessive, as long as it's not the entire amount that's getting taxed. If the exemption is $1 million, and the rest of, say, $2 million is taxed at 45%, then the total percentage taken is 22.5%, for instance.

 

[KatNotKathy]

American tax rates are laughably low. A max rate of 55% is completely ridiculous. Maybe a top bracket of 95% at 1m would be a decent start if we could sort out the mess that is capital gains. Once again, the top 400 taxpayers each paid no more than 16.62% of their income in taxes in 2007. As a percentage of income, I can almost guarantee you that every member of this forum pays more than that.

Kill the rich. Eat their children.

 

[Random]

Inheritance taxes should be confiscatory. Otherwise, you risk setting up a hereditary aristocracy in America.

They're called Billionaires.

 

[Reverend Rick]

opcorn:

 

[Kathryn]

Then I guess you misspoke.



Of course. Everyone is opposed to excessive taxation. The question is "what is excessive taxation". I don't think taxing someone's money/assets when it's given to someone else when they die as long as it's over a certain amount (like $1-2 million) by 45% is excessive.

"Redistribution of wealth" is a term like death panels that should go away. It's silly, as is your hyperbole of "at the point of a gun".

I most definitely did not "misspeak." I never implied, nor do I believe, that paying taxes, even high taxes, equals or creates a system like communism. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. Stick to the facts.

Speaking of facts, here's one:

If you don't pay your taxes - in fact, if you don't file your tax returns, whether you owe taxes or not - and you continue to ignore and/or evade the IRS, men with guns will hunt you down and take you to prison.

Therefore, most people file their tax returns and pay their taxes. They don't want men with guns coming to their house.

We pay them whether we think they are exorbitant or not - not necessarily because we believe our tax dollars are used wisely, or because we believe our government runs efficiently at our expense - but it's hard to argue with an entity that can destroy your life, whether by the stroke of a pen or the site of a gun - in one instant.

 

[Magic Man]

I most definitely did not "misspeak." I never implied, nor do I believe, that paying taxes, even high taxes, equals or creates a system like communism. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. Stick to the facts.

I am sticking to facts. You used an example of diamond rings, and the government taking two out of the three you had at gunpoint.

Speaking of facts, here's one:

If you don't pay your taxes - in fact, if you don't file your tax returns, whether you owe taxes or not - and you continue to ignore and/or evade the IRS, men with guns will hunt you down and take you to prison.

Very true. It's called a crime.

Therefore, most people file their tax returns and pay their taxes. They don't want men with guns coming to their house.

We pay them whether we think they are exorbitant or not - not necessarily because we believe our tax dollars are used wisely, or because we believe our government runs efficiently at our expense - but it's hard to argue with an entity that can destroy your life, whether by the stroke of a pen or the site of a gun - in one instant.

Um, I thought we were sticking to facts. What does this have to do with anything?

 

[Falvlun]

Let's put this in real terms and quit talking about millions - which most people won't inherit. Let's talk about a modest inheritance of $60,000 which is not an unusual amount to inherit from parents..

I thought that anything below $1 million dollars was exempted.

I am opposed to excessive taxation and excessive redistribution of wealth at the point of a gun.

I don't know about you, but I did my taxes this year from the comfort of my futon with only my dog looking on. Hardly at the point of a gun.

If you were referring to the repercussions that could happen for avoiding paying your taxes, then what would you suggest instead? It's not like taxes could by simply voluntary. There has to be a rule that you have to pay your taxes, and there has to be consequences if you refuse to do so. What is your solution?

 

[Kathryn]

If you were referring to the repercussions that could happen for avoiding paying your taxes, then what would you suggest instead? It's not like taxes could by simply voluntary. There has to be a rule that you have to pay your taxes, and there has to be consequences if you refuse to do so. What is your solution?

I am not talking about NOT paying your taxes. What I am talking about what our options are in the face of EXCESSIVE taxation, which is inevitable considering the national deficit and debt, unless we make some very big changes. We certainly cannot afford to add MORE social programs AND maintain a war in two countries - only to pour additional tax dollars into re-building the very places we bomb.

If you believe your tax dollars are being spent foolishly, or unethically, it doesn't really matter. Even when we vote, we can't seem to get anyone into office who actually has the kahunas to CUT programs - their only answers seem to be to continually EXPAND government spending, which is funded SOLELY by our taxes.

You may sit on your futon to do your taxes, but if you're paying out rather than getting a refund, I can't imagine that you're having a pleasant time on that futon.

I'm the middle class. We are paying over 1/3 of our income in taxes this year. Personally, I think that's excessive.

In fact, I figured out the other day that my ENTIRE salary goes to pay our "married filing jointly" taxes. And I make a decent salary.

Yes, boys and girls, I work full time at the bank, all year long - just to pay our tax bill.

Honestly, if that was your story, wouldn't you be a bit concerned?

 

[Sunstone]

I think we can safely say at this point that it is indeed the case the uber-rich have gone to war against the other social classes in this country and that they are pillaging those classes -- as Warren Buffet suggests.

 

[Kathryn]

Sunstone, you may have a point. I have never argued that I represent the WEALTHY in the US - because I certainly don't. I am the middle class - comfortably upper middle class most likely - by some standards, but definitely in that class making less than $250,000 a year -- which has been promised not to experience a tax hike.

By the way, both mine and my husband's federal taxes went up - by about $10 per pay period, the first of January. Everyone, check to see if yours did. All but one person I've asked has had a federal tax increase on their paychecks this year. Ten times 24 times millions of working class people equals...ummm, a lot more tax revenue. And isn't that a TAX HIKE on the middle class?????

And why isn't THAT on MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NPR and Fox?

 

[no-body]

Sunstone, you may have a point. I have never argued that I represent the WEALTHY in the US - because I certainly don't. I am the middle class - comfortably upper middle class most likely - by some standards, but definitely in that class making less than $250,000 a year -- which has been promised not to experience a tax hike.

By the way, both mine and my husband's federal taxes went up - by about $10 per pay period, the first of January. Everyone, check to see if yours did. All but one person I've asked has had a federal tax increase on their paychecks this year. Ten times 24 times millions of working class people equals...ummm, a lot more tax revenue. And isn't that a TAX HIKE on the middle class?????

And why isn't THAT on MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NPR and Fox?

I remember news stories that analyzed both tax plans and you wouldn't have been taxed any different under Mccain's plan whose only difference was he would have given more tax cuts to the wealthy and his "wealthy" was higher than $250,000 there was never any promise of only those in the 250,000 range or higher being taxed.

People only gripe because the republicans are good at blame talking points that stick in simple peoples minds "redistribution of wealth" "socialism" "bail outs"

I'm convinced if Obama spent his days on a ranch in Hawaii doing nothing he would be seen a lot more favorably. It's refreshing to have a president that is actually trying to keep his campaign promises despite insurmountable odds, instead of making everyone forget them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Everyone, check to see if yours did. All but one person I've asked has had a federal tax increase on their paychecks this year.

I'm paying much less in taxes. At my last job, when the taxes initially went down, it was a blessing as even just an extra 10 or 20 dollars on my checks made a world of differences. At my new job, making easily twice as much as my old job, I'm still paying less taxes than what I was the last time I was there. My employer takes out too much, but it only means that I got an even bigger tax return. Because of the extra being taken out, making my return bigger is going to be paying the bills while I'll be off work for about 4 weeks after I get wrist surgery.

 

[Smoke]

It's refreshing to have a president that is actually trying to keep his campaign promises despite insurmountable odds, instead of making everyone forget them.

The odds aren't insurmountable, or at least they weren't when he started. Trying to keep his promises and please the Republicans at the same time, however, is impossible. I'd be much happier with him if he'd quit trying.

 

[no-body]

The odds aren't insurmountable, or at least they weren't when he started. Trying to keep his promises and please the Republicans at the same time, however, is impossible. I'd be much happier with him if he'd quit trying.

I wish he would leave all this stuff for his second term. There are many historical reasons why it's unlikely he'll lose--see even Bush getting a second term--but what can you do he's still a politician and only thinking about future elections.

 

[Smoke]

I wish he would leave all this stuff for his second term. There are many historical reasons why it's unlikely he'll lose--see even Bush getting a second term--but what can you do he's still a politician and only thinking about future elections.

Bush got a second term largely because he promoted himself as a "war president." If it hadn't been for 9-11, Bush would have been headed back to his "ranch" in 2005. I don't think the war president billing is going to play as well in 2012 as it did in 2004, though.

Anyway, if Obama doesn't plan to get anything done till his second term, then one term is all he really needs, and it might as well be this one. What's the use of waiting?

 

[Rain Drops]

My parents have worked hard all their lives. They are in their seventies.

My father owned a small business. In fact, they only had three employees - themselves and one other person for clerical help. They paid that person well, including a nice benefits package that included education benefits, bonuses, and vacation.

My dad's dad had a farm that has been in the family for 120 years. My grandmother worked at a drug store for 40 years, lived in a small frame house, and somehow - SOMEHOW managed to save $100,000 over her frugal lifetime. (his parents were divorced.)

My dad inherited these since he was an only child. He invested the $100,000 wisely and has made some more money off that. He has mineral rights and timber rights on the farm and those are income producing as well. He manages his property well.

Technically, my parents are millionaires now. But every bit of their money is the direct result of our family's hard work - over 100 years of hard work.

How is it fair that their "wealth" be redistributed to others who have not worked for this land and income producing property? And when I inherit this, and continue to maintain and grow the income from this place - remind me again why Uncle Sam should get 1/3 of it in the form of an inheritance tax? It's already been taxed, over and over again.

I dunno, you could always ask Jesus?:

Matthew 19:16-23 (New International Version)

The Rich Young Man

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.