Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner?

[Sunstone]

...it seems like those that have a radical viewpoint are the ones the media focuses on...

Of course the media tends to focus on the most controversial people. But it's not just that tendency of the media that's behind the attention the extremists get. Extremist organizations like Focus on the Family or the Christian Colition are very sophisticated at marketing their points of view. They have public relations departments that would be the envy of large corporations. And they get their message out much more effectively than does the local pastor of a moderate church. So, yes at times, it seems like the only one speaking for all Christians are the extremists. Sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Dave]

If you see somebody doing something that could endanger their physical life (e.g. doing drugs, jumping off a cliff, etc.), then wouldn't it only be right for you to stop them? That's love.

In the same way, if you see somebody doing something that could endanger the life of their soul (that is, sinning) and see nothing wrong with it, then it's only right for you to correct them too. That too is love. The person who said unconditional love wouldn't even notice sin is mistaken -- our parents love us unconditionally, but that doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't correct or punish us when we do what is wrong.

And SOGFPP. I realize God is love, but how can you say that you don't think God hates sin? Sin angers Him. That doesn't mean He hates sinners, of course. What do you think He thinks of sin if He doesn't hate it?

 

[Feathers in Hair]

What do you think He thinks of sin if He doesn't hate it?

Disgust? Confusion? Ambivilence? (sp?) Patience?

My view of God is that s/he is complex enough to have more 'modes' than "Love" and "Hate."

 

[Dave]

Never mind. I'm just confusing myself and others.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Disgust? Yes, I'd agree there. But wouldn't it only be logical that He'd hate sin if it disgusted Him?

Confusion? No, God, being omnipotent, can't be confused.

Ambivalent? No, God already knows how He feels about sin.

Patience? Yes, He's patient with us. He may not like our sins, but He gives us opportunity after opportunity to repent until we die. Of course, after that we won't get any more chances, so if we die unrepentant, it'll be too late, and we'll be condemned to hell.

Does anyone else find it odd that we sit here surmising what God is capable of from an emotional standpoint? Are there verses in the Bible that tell us about the limits (or limitlessness) of God's emotions? If not, what we really have is a human (like any other) telling us what God wants, needs, knows, etc. Maybe we should get together and write a book about these things....:sarcastic

TVOR

 

[true blood]

I can understand the concept. Let's say your kid does something wrong... You can hate what he did, but you don't hate him. So I think the trouble with "love the sinner, but hate the sin" is not in the concept itself, but in how often it's actually applied -- and how often it's merely a mask.

Although some think its crap, I understand as well and agree with the concept. If my brother or sister killed someone I wouldn't stop loving them but I'd hate what they have done.

 

[Dave]

Again, never mind. I'd just be bringing more confusion if this post stayed as it was. Read my most recent post in this thread after SOGFPP's most recent one.

 

[Scott1]

And SOGFPP. I realize God is love, but how can you say that you don't think God hates sin? Sin angers Him. That doesn't mean He hates sinners, of course. What do you think He thinks of sin if He doesn't hate it?

It's not what I think Dave... it's what the Church teaches:

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight." Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods," knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God." In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

1848 As St. Paul affirms, "Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." But to do its work grace must uncover sin so as to convert our hearts and bestow on us "righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Like a physician who probes the wound before treating it, God, by his Word and by his Spirit, casts a living light on sin.

 

[Dave]

It's not what I think Dave... it's what the Church teaches:

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight." Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods," knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God." In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

1848 As St. Paul affirms, "Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." But to do its work grace must uncover sin so as to convert our hearts and bestow on us "righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Like a physician who probes the wound before treating it, God, by his Word and by his Spirit, casts a living light on sin.

That passage from the Catechism doesn't say what you claim it says. God will still give us the grace to overcome sin and turn from it, of course. Why? Because He loves us poor sinners infinitely, and He wants to have us in heaven with Him after we die. And we have to allow His grace to work in us so that we can be rid of it. But that's not the same thing as saying that God loves sin.

 

[true blood]

Sin is broken fellowship with our God, thanks be to God through the Lord Jesus Christ that we have a cleansing of our sins continually. Its a daily process to renew our minds, and only the peace of God shall absolutely keep our hearts and thoughts in Christ Jesus.

It's possible to break that fellowship with God in a moments thought, and its possible get back into the fellowship with God in a moments thought. God's divine favor [grace] is exceedingly good.

 

[Scott1]

But that's not the same thing as saying that God loves sin.

Never said that he did. I just said that God does not hate.

Do a search of the Catechism for the word "hate"....

Sin is an offense against God..... did the Catechism forget to mention He hates it and it makes Him angry, as you mentioned? I think not.

Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it.

Sin removes the Grace of God's love from us, never the Love of God FOR us.

Peace,
Scott

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Oh, there are plenty verses in the Bible that tell us about God and His emotions! I'd be here forever if I tried to find and identify every single one, though.

Okay Dave - I'll bite - does the Bible speak of God being confused or ambivalent? If it does, I'll accept that (even though I reject the Bible as the Divine Word of God) as being your basis of what God thinks, knows, wants, etc.
If it doesn't then it would seem that someone's thoughts on God being confused or ambivalent is merely speculation on their part. Would you agree?

Thanks,
TVOR

 

[Dave]

Ok, forget it, Scott, you're correct. I misunderstood. I didn't take into account that Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and hating sin would indicate a change in emotion. But I NEVER said that sin takes away God's love for those who sin.

 

[true blood]

I think Jesus Christ was a man and had the same emotions that you and I have. However Jesus Christ controlled all his emotions and did the will of his father, the living God. Jesus Christ on several occasions set aside his own will to do the will of his Father.

 

[Scott1]

But I NEVER said that sin takes away God's love for those who sin.

Got ya. Check you PM inbox.

Scott

 

[Dave]

I think Jesus Christ was a man and had the same emotions that you and I have. However Jesus Christ controlled all his emotions and did the will of his father, the living God. Jesus Christ on several occasions set aside his own will to do the will of his Father.

Yes, you are correct.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Yes, you are correct.

Help me Dave - how can you agree with true blood saying that "...Jesus Christ was a man and had the same emotions that you and I have."

And yet maintain that God is never confused or ambivalent?

Thanks,
TVOR

 

[true blood]

Do you think Jesus Christ was God?

 

[Nicky_uk]

Hate the sin, Love the sinner - is it real? Well, that depends on who is saying it. None of us can speak for everyone and presume we know the meaning from everyone that uses the term. Plus, we cant stop people saying it who use it as a catchphrase or an escape.

Funny this topic came up actually. I was watching TV the other night, and I heard someone use this saying on there, I thought to myself than that they just blurted out that saying as a blar de blar sort of thing, I didnt even realise until then that it had become a "saying" as such. The actual phrase itself is correct, the majority of us hate it that we sin, however, it doesnt stop us loving each other. (sounds a bit sloppy, but u know what I mean).

 

[Dave]

Help me Dave - how can you agree with true blood saying that "...Jesus Christ was a man and had the same emotions that you and I have."

And yet maintain that God is never confused or ambivalent?

Thanks,
TVOR

Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time. He had a human nature and a divine nature. Therefore, in His humanity, he was able to experience everything humans experience. He was like us in all things EXCEPT sin. God can't be ambivalent or confused, true. Yet Jesus is God. Jesus' divine nature can never be confused or ambivalent, but His human nature could be (it's a mystery how Jesus' human nature can feel one thing and His divine nature another thing, but that's another thing entirely). Yet despite whatever twinges of initial ambivalence or confusion He may have felt, He submitted it all to His Father's will. For example, the night before His crucifixion, He prayed that if it was His Father's will, that the cup of suffering would pass Him by. He knew it would be painful, and He was scared to death, yet at the same time, He loved us so much He wanted to redeem the world. So He said to God, "Not my will but yours."