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Has Christianity Been Changed?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
PureX
Veteran Member
After reading the last few pages of this thread, and the comments about shunning, I would point out that this practice is exactly what's "wrong" with modern conservative Christians in America today. What's fundamentally wrong with their religious doctrines is the idea that they have not only the right, but the obligation to judge, condemn, and punish their fellow human beings. And "shunning" is a perfect example of this. These modern "super-Christians" use their own religious beliefs as the yardstick for judging the righteousness or unrighteousness of everyone else (this is in itself an outrageously arrogant idea: that other human beings should be made accountable to one's own religious beliefs). Then they set out to "punish" anyone who will not comply with their own religious mandates. Which is not only also outrageously arrogant, it's dangerous and destructive to society as a whole.
And it's distinctly unChristian, besides. There are many instances where Christians are admonished by their scriptures NOT to pass judgment on their fellow human beings, yet in America, today, this admonishment is being ignored, wholesale. And I stated why I believe this is so in my earlier posts. The simple fact is that there are a number of powerful forces at work in American society encouraging the expression of religious ignorance, hatred, bigotry, arrogance, and self-centered judgmentalism. Christians are being encouraged to make scapegoats of their fellow citizens and to vent their anger and resentment on them. And the message of these groups of self-serving professional liars is overwhelming the message of love and forgiveness that is Christ.
The sad truth is that it's much easier to condemn our fellow humans and puff ourselves up by putting them down than it is to love and forgive them even when they may persecute us. Being a Christian is difficult, because it's difficult for us to love and forgive each other knowing that we'll only screw up and "sin" again. It's much easier to condemn and punish, and then imagine that we're the righteous one's for having done so.
And there are groups of people in this society with their own selfish agendas that understand this difficulty, and that understand that it's feels good to condemn and punish others. It makes us feel powerful, and righteous, and decisive, and strong. And who doesn't like feeling that way? And these groups also know who among us is longing to feel this power, and who is longing to punish their perceived antagonists. And they're doing everything they can to encourage these folks to act out against their fellow citizens.
And unfortunately they ARE acting out; against homosexuals, against non-Christians, against "liberals", against Muslims, even against other Christians. This is the "ugly" face of modern American conservative Christianity that we are seeing, but the responsibility doesn't just lie with the conservative Christians who have let themselves fall into this spiritual abyss, it also belongs to those groups who have been fostering and encouraging this fall to futher their own ends.
And it's distinctly unChristian, besides. There are many instances where Christians are admonished by their scriptures NOT to pass judgment on their fellow human beings, yet in America, today, this admonishment is being ignored, wholesale. And I stated why I believe this is so in my earlier posts. The simple fact is that there are a number of powerful forces at work in American society encouraging the expression of religious ignorance, hatred, bigotry, arrogance, and self-centered judgmentalism. Christians are being encouraged to make scapegoats of their fellow citizens and to vent their anger and resentment on them. And the message of these groups of self-serving professional liars is overwhelming the message of love and forgiveness that is Christ.
The sad truth is that it's much easier to condemn our fellow humans and puff ourselves up by putting them down than it is to love and forgive them even when they may persecute us. Being a Christian is difficult, because it's difficult for us to love and forgive each other knowing that we'll only screw up and "sin" again. It's much easier to condemn and punish, and then imagine that we're the righteous one's for having done so.
And there are groups of people in this society with their own selfish agendas that understand this difficulty, and that understand that it's feels good to condemn and punish others. It makes us feel powerful, and righteous, and decisive, and strong. And who doesn't like feeling that way? And these groups also know who among us is longing to feel this power, and who is longing to punish their perceived antagonists. And they're doing everything they can to encourage these folks to act out against their fellow citizens.
And unfortunately they ARE acting out; against homosexuals, against non-Christians, against "liberals", against Muslims, even against other Christians. This is the "ugly" face of modern American conservative Christianity that we are seeing, but the responsibility doesn't just lie with the conservative Christians who have let themselves fall into this spiritual abyss, it also belongs to those groups who have been fostering and encouraging this fall to futher their own ends.
People's animosity towards those groups you mentioned are because of their attitudes and blatent hypocracy. It is not because of their beliefs, but the way they convey them. Harassment, hypocracy, snobbery, guilt trips, and many other negetive traits, are common in Western Christianity.roli said:
I can't speak for everybody, but I certainley don't wish harm upon these people. However I do wish they would put a lid on it and mind their business. I rarely, if ever, read about televangicals getting killed, or preachers or Western Christian church goers because of who they are.
I'll tell ya I do hear a lot of: Anti-Gay propaganda and opression. Harrasment and verbal attacks on mothers who've had abortions and muders of the doctors that perform them. Trying to force their values and beliefs on society by cramming it down peoples throats while at the same time denying people their free will to believe as they choose. Hate, hate, hate. I'm seeing a lot of that in those groups mentioned. This is what they breed. They create division amongst people when the Bible states for us to try and bring unity to one another. To set a loving example for one another. Wash each others feet. Hate and division is what the world is composed of. The majority of Western Christianity has become one with world. They choose anger and hate instead of love.
Jesus asked God to forgive the Roman soldiers while they were nailing him to his cross. This speaks volumes. It is a fact and it shows 2 things: 1)What the true meaning of love is. 2)How much hypocracy is present in those who declare how holy and righteous they are while they tell others how unrighteous they are because of a lifestyle and/or certain beliefs.
That's not what Jesus was about. People hated and killed Jesus because of his claims about being the Messiah and the Son of God. He was killed because the religious higher up were in jeapordy of losing their credibility and power over people. They could no longer prey on the guilt of others by preching the law and declaring how wicked and unrighteous people were because they were not like them. Jesus came to wipe out that kind of thinking.
To compare the martyrdom of Christ, to society not putting up with a group of people's crap, is IMO an insult to Jesus.
It's sad to hear such novice attempts to dispell what God's word says regarding prophecy,one needs to just look up the prophecy of the bible ,do a word search and you will be overwhelmed as to how many prophecies have come to pass and how many of those old books of the bible namely the prophets are 100% accurate in what is happening today around the world. Ignorance is bliss when it keeps you from the impending judgement and truth of God's prophecy.Booko said:
But continuing to refute what you have no understanding or knowledge about leaves you pretty much in the dark regarding this topic of prophecy.That is plain to see
PureX
Veteran Member
Everything in life ebbs and flows. Already, I think we're seeing that many Americans have about had enough of this hate-mongering nonsense. Carl Rove's horrible strategy of fostering the worst in us for political gain has worked very well for he and Bush, but in the end we elected a terrible president and a terrible administration, and they've made such an enormous and costly mess of things that most Americans have been forced to realize that they've made a big mistake. Many of the conservative Christians that voted for Bush, and that were eagerly eating up all the lies and hate-mongering that the media blowhards like Limbaugh and O'Rielly and Fallwell and others were selling them have begun to realize that they've been played. Unfortunately, they aren't yet willing to recognize or admit to the spiritual abyss that they've allowed themselves to be dragged into, and so have not yet made a conscious decision to change. But I think that some of them will, and the rest will eventually be shamed into behaving more humbly, even if they don't want to.Sunstone said:
Some folks love their own hatred too much to ever give it up. But I think in time, as more and more Christians, and citizens in general, come to recognize and understand what's been going on, and why, they'll feel the proper revulsion for having been drawn into such a dark moment in American history. This sort of thing has certainly happened to us before, and will sadly probably happen to us again. We all have these negative inclination within us, and when we forget this about ourselves, we become vulnerable to being manipulated by our own darker motivations. And there are always those among us ready, willing and able to do that manipulating.
The solution is always the light of recognition, of awareness, and of the courage to refuse to take that easy road of scapegoating others to make ourselves feel better. Christians need to remember that they exhibit far more strength and courage a righteousness by turning the other cheek, and forgiving their tormentors, than they will ever exhibit by playing the religious crusader. Are they re-learning this yet? Not too many are ... not yet. In the end some will and some won't, I suppose. The good news is that I think the exploiters ability to exploit them has mostly run it's course. I don't believe that when the republican party tries once again to divide us against each other by using vicious slander against their opponents and stirring up prejudice and hatred and bigotry among Christians, as they did before, that it'll play this time. I think even many conservative Christians are feeling a little shamed by that tactic. And I also think the democrats are going to be a lot better this time at pointing out exactly what's been going on.
I'm not on the side of either political party, but what Carl Rove and George Bush have been doing to the American people, with the help of some very nasty, greedy, media loud mouths, is disgusting, and has been very damaging to the country. And I do want to see a stop put to it. I don't care whether a democrat or a republic wins any office, I just want them to be honest and intelligent enough to understand and respect that they are public servants - not temporary kings or dictators - and certainly not puppets of the rich.
I am sorry to hear about your daughter,but I must add that this is not the church that Jesus Christ established, as we all agree and is most definitely not related to the spirit filled church,but when this type of behavior of shunning is practiced in certain churches,who also claim the title of Christian, it has a tendency to be grouped by the world as part of the whole church,when in actuality it is anything but symbolic of the church of Godjeffrey said:
I hear many of those who oppose such behavior make degrading comments in a somewhat general sense regarding the church as a whole, but that is inaccurate and misdirected to say the least.
Much attack is on the church today, some justified and some unjustified.
83% of the world calls themselves christian,are they really Christain and are they truly the church that Jesus started, such claims of individuals and groups have doctrines and theologies contrary to the word of God and the whole of judeo christian values and practices, writings,history,truths etc ,
They still call themself christian, but the day will come when there will be a saparating of the chaff and the wheat as Jesus so accurately put it.
So,I wonder when someone backlashes a true biblical principal or behavior ,biblical doctrine and immediately aquaint it with a heretical teaching,unloving,hateful etc. and begin to attack the whole church and christian arena,are they doing it more for conscience sake and self justification.
The bible says, they hate the light(Jesus and the truth) and won't come into the light for fear their deeds will be exposed ,maybe that is the real reason why the bible ,the true church and the Christain are vehemently attacked ,much the way Jesus was attacked.
Tell me, will anyone with kids not discipline him or her with love,with strong words and harsh actions sometimes to prevent them from dangerous circumstances,regardless of their response and opinions as unloving, uncaring maybe even hateful. Well that is how Jesus' message was recieved ,thus they crucified him,not to mention everyone of the diciples were killed except John,for their declaring the message of Jesus Christ.
Booko
Deviled Hen
roli said:
You're absolutely right. So many of those prophecies have indeed been fulfilled. And because of this, perhaps it's time for you to start looking around to see where Jesus returned. He did say He was going to come like a thief in the night, after all. And don't expect Him to call Himself Jesus any more than John the Baptist called himself Elijah. Revelation says there will be a "new name," which rather means don't look for the old one.
Yes, I was definitely overwhelmed by how many prophecies have come to pass. And it is precisely because of those reasons I found out who Baha'u'llah was, and why I'm a Baha'i today.
It's fascinating how you assume that I've done no study of eschatological texts merely because I don't have the same interpretations of them that you do. Do you think it's possible you've been a tad hasty here? Everyone is sometimes. It's no big deal.
btw, have you done much study of prophecy in Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Islam? They all point in the same direction that Biblical prophecies do, and they all promise an era of unprecedented peace.
It's the primary reason I'm no longer an atheist. It's kinda difficult to deny the existence of God when He's obviously been working in all sorts of times and places, and all with the same basic message.
PureX
Veteran Member
Actually, this discussion seems to be aimed at some specific ideas and bahaviors of American conservative Christians, rather then at Christianity as a whole religion, or as a church body. I think we all not only understand that these behaviors are not Christian, are not endemic to the Christian religion, and we have been saying so. In fact, the general trend of this discussion is that we don't believe these ideas and behaviors are Christian, and so we're trouble by their being expressed among American Christian groups. If we really thought all Christians were bad, we wouldn't be having this discussion.roli said:
Jerrell said:
The problem for the (is it correct to say "far right") religious movement in the US is that it is precisely the vehicle they exploit for i.e TV that is the basis for impressions formed overseas of what is going on over there. I could go down to my local evangeslistic church for a fix of what is presented on TV. Guess what, the pastor has an American accent. I am not sure how to categorise this movement exactly but religious imperialism would be a start. When I saw Benny Hine standing in front of India Gate saying "please Jesus give us this country" I was incredulous but it is worrying that this attitude can permeate Christianity in the US to the extent it does. On the back of globalisation in economics, are we looking at attempts at globalisation in religion?
Booko
Deviled Hen
Yes, they are, and it's not limited to this country or culture, but is a universal problem.Mister_T said:
"Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 14)
Seriously friends, there is so much on this topic in Baha'i texts, I barely know where to start. But here are a couple of shorter quotes to give you an idea. There will be an end to all of this. The religious teachers of East and West have all promised it.
'We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations -- that all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that all bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease and differences of race be annulled -- and so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away and the most great peace shall come. Is not this that which Christ foretold? Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind.'
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 10)
"To the Peoples of the World:
The Great Peace towards which people of good will throughout the centuries have inclined their hearts, of which seers and poets for countless generations have expressed their vision, and for which from age to age the sacred scriptures of mankind have constantly held the promise, is now at long last within the reach of the nations. For the first time in history it is possible for everyone to view the entire planet, with all its myriad diversified peoples, in one perspective. World peace is not only possible but inevitable. It is the next stage in the evolution of this planet -- in the words of one great thinker, "the planetization of mankind".
Whether peace is to be reached only after unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity's stubborn clinging to old patterns of behaviour, or is to be embraced now by an act of consultative will, is the choice before all who inhabit the earth. At this critical juncture when the intractable problems confronting nations have been fused into one common concern for the whole world, failure to stem the tide of conflict and disorder would be unconscionably irresponsible."
(Letters of The Universal House of Justice, 1985 Oct, The Promise of World Peace, p. 1)
I hope we are not too stubborn, as I would prefer we avoid the unimaginable horrors. But I see a lot of hope for us, even here on RF, as people from every background come together in peace and can agree on so much in ways that would have been unthinkable even a generation ago.
The Far Right can in some few cases be secular in America, so it's a bit more accurate to call the Religious Right the Religious Right, as distinct from the whole Far Right.bill said:
May I ask where you're from Bill? How pervasive is American style Evangelicalism where you're at?
The Christian Reconstructionists in this country believe that they are on a mission from God to take over the world (not kidding!) begining with America. They are a relatively small faction of the Religious Right, but their thinking that America occupies a special role and favor in the eyes of God has caught on with other factions. Christian Reconstructionists believe that only after a Kingdom of God is established on earth will Christ return. So, they want to establish that kingdom. They also believe in executing homosexuals, abortionists, women who have had abortions, "promiscuous" women, etc. They are the far right of the Religious Right.
Guys like Pat Robertson have a larger audience abroad than they do here. Robetson's CBN gets 3 million viewers here and 20 million worldwide. James Dobson's radio program has about 200 million listeners worldwide. These guys are defininately going for the whole world. I do believe you are correct to suggest that we are looking at an attempt to globalize a certain brand of Christianity.
I wouldn't blame you if looking at how screwed up our politics have become since the rise of the Religious Right, you were to look at these efforts to globalize it with a revulsion. It's a terrible thing our countrie's come to, IMO, and now we're exporting it.
roli said:
I regard the danger associated with the religious right as one of self-fulfilling prophecy. If the Bibles prophecies are 100% accurate (I seriously doubt this claim), I am convinced that this is due to belief in a particular result guiding action to bring about the result. It is all to easy to ignore the dynamics of achieving a result by regarding the result in isolation. So yes ignorance is bliss, I sure you are satisfied.
What about those of us who are not ignorant. I would include in this category anyone who takes the time to give this some thought and is not part of the far right belief stucture, moderate Christians included. I think the dogs breakfast logic of belief in prophecy comes across as mindless, and aggressive. For those of you in the US, if you let this movement hijack the PR of the nation, why should you not expect to be met with intense suspicion rather than "hearts and minds"?
I would say the US has a special responsibility to manage the export of right wing ideology. You are the most powerful nation on earth economically. This octopus of economic power provides established networks through which to diffuse an ideologic world view. Economic vulnerability does not equate to religious vulnerability. Other nations are founded on identification with other Gods than your own and just as convinced they are right. In today's world a nation feeling under the pump due to pressure to conform to a Western model of economic and (right wing) religious reality just reach for an atom bomb. The US cannot control this access, and the pressure to conform just might be the cause of proliferation. Do we have to wait for the final prophecy of the Bible ie armaggedon to arise in order for far right Christians to have their cake and eat it too. To me that is a Dog's Breakfast.
Booko
Deviled Hen
bill said:
The problem Bill, is that our Constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech and religion prevents us from putting a stop to such people here, much less stopping them from exporting their ideas.
The thing that will stop them is when people recognize the destructive and hateful nature of the message and reject it. That will take some time, but it will happen eventually.
Sunstone said:
Thanks for mentioning the Christian Reconstructionists. What are they, some kind of reaction against postmodernism? I would say there is a deception present in that name. What are they reconstructing? The deconstruction never actually occurred. Postmodernism is not the "mainstream" and has been criticised for being politically ineffectual because it does not provide coherent thesis for action based on a realist world view. No it is more that the juggernaut of modernism is rolling on. These "reconstructionists" are better seen as an extreme of a modernist world view based on Enlightenment ideas such as rationality, truth, objectivity, and neutrality. How else is it that their thesis is regarded as plausible and acceptable, if their ultimate aim is a spiritual monoculture?