Guru in Sikhism

[nameless]

Sat Sri Akaal dear friends,

What is the status of Guru in sikhism?
1) Are they equal to god?
2) Are they just below the god?
3) Are they just above the god?

If guru is equal to god, are they seen as 'all prevading lord' or as a human being or as anything else? also do sikhs worship gurus?

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Hope Kabir ji is accepted as a guru in Sikhism, i would like to quote a beautiful kabir ji's doha.

"guru govind dono khade, kis ko lage panw; balihari guru apko, govind diyo lakhai"

Translation(hope it is correct) - If the guru and Govind are standing together, at whose feet will you bow down first? I am a sacrifice onto the guru for he has revealed Govind to me.

also i would like to know what in sikhism is govind(if there is any)?

All types of views are welcome ...

thanks..

 

[Treks]

Nameless ji

Very good questions.

A Guru is a spiritual teacher. We need to remember that Guru Nanak, the first Sikh Guru, had no human Guru. He learned from many people, but none of them were his Guru. When Guru Nanak talks about the Guru, he's talking about God, the ultimate spiritual teacher.

What is the status of Guru in sikhism?
1) Are they equal to god?
2) Are they just below the god?
3) Are they just above the god?

If guru is equal to god, are they seen as 'all prevading lord' or as a human being or as anything else? also do sikhs worship gurus?

Gur the Creator is obviously God.
Guru (Guroo) is one of the Sikh Gurus.

These words are spelled differently in Gurmukhi script. I don't know enough to explain in-depth. Perhaps someone else can.

The Sikh Gurus were simply humans who were able to break down their ego and really express their jyot (divine light which everybody has). Guru Nanak's brightness was passed to Guru Angad, then to Guru Amardas, and so on until Guru Gobind Singh (10th Guru) declared that light to reside in Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Sikh sacred text).

Mainstream sikhs have no human Guru now, only Guru Granth Sahib Ji and God Itself.

I should say that even though Sikhs prostrate before Guru Granth Sahib Ji, wave a fly-whisk over it, wrap it in cloth and put it on a bed at night, they're not 'worshipping' the scripture (performing idolatry). It is an expression of massive respect for the treasure of the text, and some nice ceremonies. Sikhi is very clear that Creator is worthy of worship only. The best way to do that is to meditate on Naam (divine essence), contemplate the Shabad Guru, imbibe the teachings and then LIVE THEM. It's all for nothing if you don't LIVE it.

On a more personal note, I've been thinking lately that Guru might be a reference to our 'higher selves'. That jyot inside us which can connect to God and bless us with understanding (teach us). But this is my personal view and shouldn't be relied upon. I'm interested to hear what other people think though.

 

[Treks]

And the second part of your question:

Kabir is not considered a Guru in Sikhi, He is a bhagat, a devotee, held in very high regard. Not all of his writing was included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I couldn't find the dohra you quoted (but maybe I'm not looking in the right places).

As far as I know 'Govind' is another word for 'God'. It is from Sanskrit 'Govimba' meaning 'preserver of the world'. Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses lots of names and words for God, including Har, Raam and Allah.

I hope that helps. I look forward to hearing other people's views.

 

[GURSIKH]

Namaste Bhai ,

As Treks mentioned Guru means Guide ,Teacher and Sikh means a Student .

When Siddha s of Himalya asked Guru Nanak ,Who is your Guru .? Guru Nanak replied "SHABAD" /WORD .

[SIZE=+1]ਤੇਰਾ ਕਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਤੂ ਚੇਲਾ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]तेरा कवणु गुरू जिस का तू चेला ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ŧerā kavaṇ gurū jis kā ṯū cẖelā.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Who is your guru? Whose disciple are you?

[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]सबदु गुरू सुरति धुनि चेला ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Sabaḏ gurū suraṯ ḏẖun cẖelā.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib


[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]for Sikh GURU is not body of flesh ,its WORD/SHABAD ie Guru Granth Sahib ji .

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]सलोकु मः ३ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Salok mėhlā 3.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Shalok, Third Mehl:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]सतिगुर नो सभु को वेखदा जेता जगतु संसारु ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Saṯgur no sabẖ ko vekẖ▫ḏā jeṯā jagaṯ sansār.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]All the living beings of the world [SIZE=+1]sees[/SIZE] the True Guru.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]डिठै मुकति न होवई जिचरु सबदि न करे वीचारु ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Diṯẖai mukaṯ na hova▫ī jicẖar sabaḏ na kare vīcẖār.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad.

Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib


[SIZE=+1]As Words of Kabir ji are there in Guru Granth Sahib ji i have no problem in accepting Kabir ji as Guru .

R[SIZE=+1]egarding "Govind " as Treks ji said its one of the numerous names associated with GOD .[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Satnam [/SIZE]
[/SIZE] [/SIZE]

 

[chinu]

Sat Sri Akaal dear friends,

What is the status of Guru in sikhism?
1) Are they equal to god?
2) Are they just below the god?
3) Are they just above the god?

If guru is equal to god, are they seen as 'all prevading lord' or as a human being or as anything else? also do sikhs worship gurus?

As per sikh community they believe..
there are two guru's these days, "Shabad Guru" and "Guru Granth Sahib ji", but during the time from "Guru Nanak Sahib" to "Guru Gobind Sahib" they believe that there were three gurus, "Shabad Guru" "Guru Granth Sahib" and "Living Guru"

Now the question is why they don't believe in living guru these days ?
It is believed that at the time just before his death the last guru "Gobind Sahib ji" made a commandents to all sikhs "Agya pai akal ki tabe chalyo panth, saab sikhn ko hukam hai guru manyo granth.......(more)" which finally means; from today "Guru Granth Sahib ji" will play the role of a living guru and ended up the chain of living guru's by making such commandents, But.. these commandents are not rigestred on any of page in "Guru Granth Sahib ji".

IMO.. there are two guru's always "Shabd" and "Living Guru", I also respect "Guru Granth Sahib" as guru, but in that order other holy books "Gita" "Bible" "Koran" etc.. are also Guru and equal in respect to me.

Hope Kabir ji is accepted as a guru in Sikhism

No, as i explained above... there were no living guru in sikhism after "Guru Gobind Sahib Ji "

i would like to quote a beautiful kabir ji's doha.
"guru govind dono khade, kis ko lage panw; balihari guru apko, govind diyo lakhai"

If the guru and Govind are standing together, at whose feet will you bow down first? I am a sacrifice onto the guru for he has revealed Govind to me.

also i would like to know what in sikhism is govind(if there is any)?

Yes, here "Kabir Sahib" says that living guru is more important than God, even in "Guru Granth Sahib" there are many such quotes by other guru's which also claims that living guru is more important.

For example: From a long time your most expencive thing is lost somewhere, and somebody has finded it for you, Now.. the person who has finded that thing for you is more important or that thing ? Surely that person is more important.

As per sikhism...
they don't want any kind of help to search their most important thing just because they believe that "Guru Granth Sahib" is sufficent for them to search their most important thing, or in other words it means.. they will search their most important thing by reading "Guru Granth Sahib ji ".

IMO..
It is not possible.

 

[Treks]

For example: From a long time your most expencive thing is lost somewhere, and somebody has finded it for you, Now.. the person who has finded that thing for you is more important or that thing ? Surely that person is more important.

The Guru is the Boat which carries us across the turbulent world-ocean, to the other side, to the Naam, to God-realisation. Without the Guru (teacher) we can't get there, but if we stop at Guru and forget God (the most expensive thing) then will will continue to drift on the world-ocean and never actually get to the other side.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਉੜੀ ਬੇੜੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਲਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
गुरु पउड़ी बेड़ी गुरू गुरु तुलहा हरि नाउ ॥
Gur pa▫oṛī beṛī gurū gur ṯulhā har nā▫o.
The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name.
ਗੁਰੁ ਸਰੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਦਰੀਆਉ ॥
गुरु सरु सागरु बोहिथो गुरु तीरथु दरीआउ ॥
Gur sar sāgar bohitho gur ṯirath ḏarī▫ā▫o.
The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River.
ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਊਜਲੀ ਸਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵਣ ਜਾਉ ॥੩॥
जे तिसु भावै ऊजली सत सरि नावण जाउ ॥३॥
Je ṯis bẖāvai ūjlī saṯ sar nāvaṇ jā▫o. ||3||
If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure. ||3||

​

 

[chinu]

The Guru is the Boat which carries us across the turbulent world-ocean, to the other side, to the Naam, to God-realisation. Without the Guru (teacher) we can't get there, but if we stop at Guru and forget God (the most expensive thing) then will will continue to drift on the world-ocean and never actually get to the other side.

After getting on the boat there's no need to walk, that because the boat itself is enough to take us where we want to go. The only thing to take care is that one may not get off the boat, that because by doing this one can sink in this turblent ocean.

Well.. a true guru never let his student to stop at him/her, if something like this is on the way to happen, Guru alerts such student.

 

[Treks]

A Guru teaches the student and it's up to the student to follow the teaching. Without diligently following the teaching and putting it into action in ones life, the student isn't going to make it. I don't think so, anyway.

It's a bit like learning how to build a tower (reach God). The Guru can teach you how to build a tower, give you all the plans in the world, give you all the tools, give you all the moral support, but if you don't pick up that hammer and beat those nails you're never going to actually build a tower.

And getting the tower is the ultimate goal.

 

[chinu]

A Guru teaches the student and it's up to the student to follow the teaching. Without diligently following the teaching and putting it into action in ones life, the student isn't going to make it. I don't think so, anyway.

It's a bit like learning how to build a tower (reach God). The Guru can teach you how to build a tower, give you all the plans in the world, give you all the tools, give you all the moral support, but if you don't pick up that hammer and beat those nails you're never going to actually build a tower.

And getting the tower is the ultimate goal.

Yes, getting the tower is the ultimate goal,
well.. keep it on, Treks.

 

[nameless]

[edited]
thanks Treks, Gurusikh, chinu for all your answers. I did not know that the SGGS is also a guru for sikhs.

chinu ji, in your opinion, is living guru equal to equal to god? should we worship him? worship him as form or formless?

 

[Treks]

Nameless, I'm confused by your question to Chinu.

chinu ji, in your opinion, is he equal to equal to god? should we worship living guru? worship him as form or formless?

Are you referring to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the sacred text of the Sikhs?

 

[nameless]

Nameless, I'm confused by your question to Chinu.



Are you referring to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the sacred text of the Sikhs?

sorry for the confusion, Treks. By 'him' i mean 'living guru'.

 

[Treks]

Okie dokie :rainbow1:

 

[chinu]

chinu ji, in your opinion, is living guru equal to equal to god?

Yes.

should we worship him?

Yes.

worship him as form or formless?

Form.

But.. if i would have been on the place of any living guru, than i would have said "NO" for all the above questions.

 

[Treks]

Sikhs treat the Guru Granth Sahib Ji with much respect, but the only thing to be worshipped is the Akaal Purakh. This is done by singing songs from the Guru Granth Sahib and living according to the teachings within it.

 

[nameless]

Yes.

Yes.

Form.

But.. if i would have been on the place of any living guru, than i would have said "NO" for all the above questions.

thanks chinu ji, i like all your answers and i agree with that

 

[nameless]

Sikhs treat the Guru Granth Sahib Ji with much respect, but the only thing to be worshipped is the Akaal Purakh. This is done by singing songs from the Guru Granth Sahib and living according to the teachings within it.

thanks treks for your valuable input.

i have another question for you if you dont mind , we all know that SGGS ji is guru for the sikhs and many teachings found in the SGGS ji was obtained from the devotees like kabir ji, are the devotees capable to produce guru?

nb: pls reject this post if you feel like this question is a sort of debate. ...

 

[Treks]

Hi Nameless

No the bhagats who have some of their writings included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren't (weren't) Gurus as far as Sikhs are concerned... Sikhs have 10 human Gurus and the eternal Guru SGGSJ / Akaal Purakh Itself. Anything else is irrelevant for a Sikh, IMHO, including worshipping any living Guru as God.

 

[chinu]

Hi Nameless

No the bhagats who have some of their writings included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren't (weren't) Gurus as far as Sikhs are concerned... Sikhs have 10 human Gurus and the eternal Guru SGGSJ / Akaal Purakh Itself. Anything else is irrelevant for a Sikh, IMHO, including worshipping any living Guru as God.

Treks, how do you describe "Sikh" ? or what is needed to be a compleate "Sikh" ? and are you a compleate "Sikh" ?

 

[Treks]

A Sikh is a student of Life. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and God Itself are the spiritual teachers for the Sikh.

A Sikh hopes to learn from the Guru the way to live according to Hukam, to reduce ego and realise Naam.

The question about completeness is too broad to answer.