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Gun Rights: The government screwd up; Gun owners pay.

A

Archer

Well-Known Member
Simply put: The Obama administration’s Justice Department – working through the ATF – allegedly created a problem that it now wants to solve by penalizing gun dealers and invading the privacy of their customers. Operation Fast and Furious, now under Congressional investigation, has become such a stain that UCLA Law Professor Adam Winkler is now blasting the operation on the Huffington Post, and the administration for its apparent stonewalling and cover-up.
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NSSF, NRA sue over new

First, a little background. The operation began in November 2009 in an effort to crack down on Mexican drug cartels, which have been known to use military-style firearms purchased in gun shops on the U.S. side of the border. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosive ("ATF") allowed approximately 1,700 guns to be sold illegally to suppliers of the cartels and then failed to keep track of the weapons. Many of the guns have since been recovered at crime scenes, including two guns recovered at the scene of a fatal attack on a U.S. border agent.
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Adam Winkler: Obama's Growing Gun Problem

I have been following the "Operation Gun Runner" and "Operation Fast and Furious" for a while and it is a joke. Our government is full of idiots.

More links:

Issa to NRA: Two more Fast & Furious hearings planned this year - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com

Operation Fast and Furious - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Project Gunrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is there not more of this on the front pages?

If this had not been a setup the gun store owner would be sued.

Americans should sue the government for making things worse?
 
A

Archer

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
Issues which tend to make the anti-gun crowd look bad aren't newsworthy.
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True. I have been following this for quite a while and one agent was told to let some of them get away.

American and Mexican lives are what? Collateral damage in a political game that bureaucrats play? "We The People" are acceptable losses?

I hope those drug dealers take their war to DC; with the guns they let them purchase!
 
A

Archer

Well-Known Member
This Tuesday’s hearing, Operation Fast and Furious: The Other Side of the Border, will feature the testimony of U.S. law enforcement officials who witnessed a different side of the controversial operation. These officials saw the steady stream of Operation Fast and Furious guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico and were given orders from superiors not to alert Mexican authorities. Members of the Committee will also have their first opportunity to question ATF supervisors who have defended Operation Fast and Furious and the Justice Department’s decisions to committee investigators.
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BULLETIN: Third Fast & Furious hearing scheduled next Tuesday - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com
Those "kids" purchased more than 1800 guns from stores in and around Phoenix. The straw buyers reportedly received about $100 per transaction. The gun stores say they were assured by the ATF and U.S. attorneys that the weapons would be tracked. Instead, agents say the weapons were allowed to "walk", they were not followed and many ended up in Mexico. Along with crime scenes south of the border, two were also found at the murder scene of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.—Fox News
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Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Archer said:
I hope those drug dealers take their war to DC; with the guns they let them purchase!
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I wouldn't go that far.
Let's just end the war on drugs.
Tax the darned stuff, & let the proceeds assuage society's ills.
 
A

Archer

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
I wouldn't go that far.
Let's just end the war on drugs.
Tax the darned stuff, & let the proceeds assuage society's ills.
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And when the drugs laws gone those people will still be killing. All drugs will never be legal. Some are too dangerous. Pot? Sure no worse than a pack of smokes a day and better than liquor.

Hash? Bring it back; PLEASE. No not for me anymore.

Coke? Definitely needs regulation.

Heroin? Opium? I don't really go for those I think they are a bad idea.

Get the modern man made crap off of the streets though.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Archer said:
And when the drugs laws gone those people will still be killing. All drugs will never be legal. Some are too dangerous. Pot? Sure no worse than a pack of smokes a day and better than liquor.
Hash? Bring it back; PLEASE. No not for me anymore.
Coke? Definitely needs regulation.
Heroin? Opium? I don't really go for those I think they are a bad idea.
Get the modern man made crap off of the streets though.
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You correctly point out that legalization will be complex & still have problems.
I only believe that it will be better than the status quo.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Declaring fire arms illegal has happened in many countries.

The crime rates were not affected.
The violence simply became more personal....knives, clubs, etc...etc...etc..
 
Neophyte

Neophyte

Miranda Kerr Worship
otokage007 said:
:confused:

I mean, Guns, shotguns and you know, everything that goes BANG.
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Why? Do you really think this will stop violence? I can assure you it will not. Guns are pretty much illegal in Belgium yet they still have gun violence. Why? Criminals will buy gun illegally. Guns save many woman from rape each year. Why take away the best means to defend themselves? Same with others. Guns are important and the second we give them up, we are in serious trouble.
 
A

Archer

Well-Known Member
otokage007 said:
:confused:

I mean, Guns, shotguns and you know, everything that goes BANG.
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Disagree. People kill people as proven throughout history.

Thief said:
Declaring fire arms illegal has happened in many countries.

The crime rates were not affected.
The violence simply became more personal....knives, clubs, etc...etc...etc..
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Neophyte said:
Why? Do you really think this will stop violence? I can assure you it will not. Guns are pretty much illegal in Belgium yet they still have gun violence. Why? Criminals will buy gun illegally. Guns save many woman from rape each year. Why take away the best means to defend themselves? Same with others. Guns are important and the second we give them up, we are in serious trouble.
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I agree and so does BBC: BBC NEWS | UK | Why Britain needs more guns

"If guns are outlawed," an American bumper sticker warns, "only outlaws will have guns." With gun crime in Britain soaring in the face of the strictest gun control laws of any democracy, the UK seems about to prove that warning prophetic.
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A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Neophyte said:
Why? Do you really think this will stop violence? I can assure you it will not. Guns are pretty much illegal in Belgium yet they still have gun violence. Why? Criminals will buy gun illegally. Guns save many woman from rape each year. Why take away the best means to defend themselves? Same with others. Guns are important and the second we give them up, we are in serious trouble.
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Bet you a buffalo nickel that non-lethal tactics such as matial arts and mace (or similar) has saved many more women from unwanted advances than guns.
 
gnomon

gnomon

Well-Known Member
The bigger issue is not whether or not drugs need to be legalized or the legal status of guns.

The issue with Operation Fast and Furious is that our government knowingly aided illegal gun transportation into the hands of drug cartels and those guns were directly used to kill Mexican citizens, Mexican law enforcement and US law enforcement.

The question we need to be asking is how far up the ladder should we be going to find out which public officials shall be judged with the full extent of the law and the appropriate capital punishment applied. All the way up to Eric Holder, maybe?

edit: Though I've read nothing showing that Holder knew about the operation.
 
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otokage007

otokage007

Well-Known Member
Neophyte said:
Why? Do you really think this will stop violence? I can assure you it will not. Guns are pretty much illegal in Belgium yet they still have gun violence. Why? Criminals will buy gun illegally. Guns save many woman from rape each year. Why take away the best means to defend themselves? Same with others. Guns are important and the second we give them up, we are in serious trouble.
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I don't think the man who wants to rape you deserves dead. So we won't come to an agreement I guess.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
otokage007 said:
I don't think the man who wants to rape you deserves dead. So we won't come to an agreement I guess.
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Why not? I say he does. You're not actually suggesting that it's better for an innocent woman to be raped than for her attacker to die, are you? Because that would be absolutely disgusting. What sort of backwards culture cares more for the well being of those who prey upon the innocent than that of the victims?
 
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