"Good without God? More Americans say amen to that"

[Glaurung]

The point has never been that an explicit belief in God is necessary to behave well, but that the notion of 'goodness' is meaningless in a materialist worldview.

Seems to be necessary for some people. At least by their own accounts, they'd murder, rape, steal, etc if they did not believe in an avenging god. I wouldn't call such people "moral" or "good" though. Just calculating.

It can work the other way around as well.

If you're counting on death as oblivion, then why not go out on a killing spree? You lose nothing and will as a bonus, have you name remembered for decades to come.

 

[Kemosloby]

That makes sense because without God there's nothing to say anything they do isn't good.

 

[Skwim]

That makes sense because without God there's nothing to say anything they do isn't good.

Not sure whom you're responding to, but . . . why is the concept of bad, "not good in any manner or degree," impossible without god?

.

 

[Kemosloby]

Not sure whom you're responding to, but . . . why is the concept of bad, "not good in any manner or degree," impossible without god?

.

Because it bends like a rubber chicken. The minute something bad becomes something you want to do it becomes good in your opinion. So basically what 56% of Americans are saying is; we can do what we want without God.

 

[Mister Silver]

Because it bends like a rubber chicken. The minute something bad becomes something you want to do it becomes good in your opinion. So basically what 56% of Americans are saying is; we can do what we want without God.

God doesn't hold the monopoly on morality. People can be perfectly good without believing in god.

 

[Kemosloby]

Not sure whom you're responding to, but . . . why is the concept of bad, "not good in any manner or degree," impossible without god?

.

Also Jesus said "None are good, no not one" so you're only chance of calling yourself good is without God, or with another God.

 

[Skwim]

Because it bends like a rubber chicken. The minute something bad becomes something you want to do it becomes good in your opinion.

Ah, so you believe that only the perpetrator gets to decide whether their action is good or not. That others have no right to judge my decision to drive without a license is a bad one or not. Or that my decision to have unprotected sex with strangers is a bad one or not. Interesting.

So basically what 56% of Americans are saying is; we can do what we want without God.

Basically, no.

Also Jesus said "None are good, no not one" so you're only chance of calling yourself good is without God, or with another God.

Okay, I'll take you up on that. I'll call myself good without god.

 

[idav]

"For the first time, a majority of Americans — 56 percent — say it is possible to be a good person without a religious belief.

So says new Pew Research Center data drawn from two polls conducted among about 5,000 American adults in June and July.

“God is not a prerequisite for good values and morality,” Greg Smith, Pew’s associate director of research, said in a post about the findings. ” … [T]he public’s increased rejection of the idea that belief in God is necessary for morality is due, in large part, to the spike in the share of Americans who are religious ‘nones.'”

Nones now account for about one-quarter — 23 percent — of American adults, up from 16 percent in 2007. But their growth is not the whole story behind the numbers.

In the current poll, Protestants and Catholics were also polled, and 45 percent of them agree that God is not necessary for personal morality, up from 42 percent in 2011.

Even white evangelicals, who traditionally believe a relationship with God is crucial to morality, have budged. In 2011, one quarter of them (26 percent) said it was possible to be good without God, while now almost a third (32 percent) say so.

“To be sure, most white evangelicals still say belief in God is necessary for morality,” Smith writes. “But the share who say belief in God is a necessary underpinning of being moral has declined from 72 percent to 65 percent in just six years.”
source
​

So, what do you think, is a belief in god unnecessary to be good?

.

Someone being good just to get into heaven would be missing the point, any decently intelligent god would see through such intents.

 

[Glaurung]

Someone being good just to get into heaven would be missing the point, any decently intelligent god would see through such intents.

Being 'good' isn't sufficient for salvation to begin with. You cannot earn your way into heaven, only cooperate with grace.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Although I don't consider nature evil, I consider all evil to come from it. As they say, it's a part of human nature. I consider all good to come from our innate desire to evolve as people. As someone who believes that the ultimate role of God is given to The Omniverse, I do not consider it to be alive nor dead - just the founding presence of reality. The Universe wasn't designed solely for the existence of human beings, nor was it shaped for any particular life form. That attribution of scarcity, among other things, is the reason why evil exists. Things that are man-made but evil ultimately come from a lack of human awareness. God is neither good nor evil. It did not intend for the presence of evil to exist, but also did not stop it from spreading.

 

[blü 2]

So, what do you think, is a belief in god unnecessary to be good?
.

This is the moment when you say, 'Belief in which god?'.

The moral messages from God are hopelessly confused, variable and pragmatic, and radio reception of the messages is very poor at the best of times.

I welcome the report. Thanks for drawing it to attention.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Being 'good' isn't sufficient for salvation to begin with. You cannot earn your way into heaven, only cooperate with grace.

Then since my entry to heaven is strictly due to whim and not some objective rubric, I'm free to do whatever I want, Light Side or Dark Side, because God can easily just say yay or nay no matter what.

 

[Glaurung]

Then since my entry to heaven is strictly due to whim and not some objective rubric, I'm free to do whatever I want, Light Side or Dark Side, because God can easily just say yay or nay no matter what.

On the contrary, the means to heaven is objective and open to anyone who will take it. That means is Christ, the Church and the sacraments.

That is not to say that good works and a moral life aren't essential, but per se will not buy anyone salvation. You can't bargain with God, you can only (with his help) merit.

 

[Altfish]

​

So, what do you think, is a belief in god unnecessary to be good?

.

It seems to be the opposite to me.
If you believe in god you can go around raping and pillaging then when you are bored just get on your knees, ask for forgiveness and all is ok again.
Non-believers don't have that option.

 

[Glaurung]

Not sure whom you're responding to, but . . . why is the concept of bad, "not good in any manner or degree," impossible without god?

Because assuming materialism good and evil are nothing but intersubjective cultural/personal projections. At best those projections may be useful, but nevertheless they're neither real or meaningful.

You can say that benevolence is useful to human flourishing, but there's no intrinsic value to our flourishing. The Las Vegas shooter certainly didn't value it (he didn't even value his own) and it is not as if he has anything to answer for. There is no coherent reason to value anything, no coherent reason to do or to not do anything because it's all absurd dream that always ends in the same way regardless; in oblivion.

 

[proudpagan]

The point has never been that an explicit belief in God is necessary to behave well, but that the notion of 'goodness' is meaningless in a materialist worldview.

A sample of atheist leadership data reveals a different picture:

• Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 78 million
  
• Joseph Stalin, Atheist: 20 million plus dead
• Vladimir Lenin, Atheist: 5.5 million dead
• Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
• Pol Pot Atheist: 2 million dead
• Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead

 

[Glaurung]

A sample of atheist leadership data reveals a different picture:

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I don't disagree with you. It is to be acknowledged that you can be an atheist and more or less be 'good'. But any atheist notion of what it means to be good is necessarily based only on the subjective. Goodness isn't a 'thing' it is without God only an opinion. (Not that opinions are anything more than illusions because everything is predetermined by material causality).

Thankfully few people actually take their worldview to its logical conclusions. Because there is a God endowed conscience. Even if it has been distorted or weakened. People may protest, but nihilism is the logical conclusion of materialism. Appeals to secular humanism as an alternative morality (as I have seen from time to time) miss the point entirely.

 

[proudpagan]

Thankfully few people actually take their worldview to its logical conclusions

I have no problem with atheists as long as they dont act like an oversmart ****

 

[whirlingmerc]

"For the first time, a majority of Americans — 56 percent — say it is possible to be a good person without a religious belief.

So says new Pew Research Center data drawn from two polls conducted among about 5,000 American adults in June and July.

“God is not a prerequisite for good values and morality,” Greg Smith, Pew’s associate director of research, said in a post about the findings. ” … [T]he public’s increased rejection of the idea that belief in God is necessary for morality is due, in large part, to the spike in the share of Americans who are religious ‘nones.'”

Nones now account for about one-quarter — 23 percent — of American adults, up from 16 percent in 2007. But their growth is not the whole story behind the numbers.

In the current poll, Protestants and Catholics were also polled, and 45 percent of them agree that God is not necessary for personal morality, up from 42 percent in 2011.

Even white evangelicals, who traditionally believe a relationship with God is crucial to morality, have budged. In 2011, one quarter of them (26 percent) said it was possible to be good without God, while now almost a third (32 percent) say so.

“To be sure, most white evangelicals still say belief in God is necessary for morality,” Smith writes. “But the share who say belief in God is a necessary underpinning of being moral has declined from 72 percent to 65 percent in just six years.”
source
​

So, what do you think, is a belief in god unnecessary to be good?

.

So now what God requires is up to a democratic or popular vote? I think not.

That would be a misunderstanding of what 'good' is. Apostles and prophets in Old and New Testament were undone by a vision of the true holiness of God but is it a surprise if an increasingly secular mind doesn't have that view?

A person may negotiate down the idea of what good is to fit their views and a small view of God
Whether a person increasingly takes a secular view doesn't make it so, after all most people in some places and times thought the world was flat

"All of us like she have gone astray, each has turned to his own way but the Lord has laid the iniquity of us all on Him.: Isaiah 53:6

Isaiah: 'The Song of Moses and the Lamb

 

[Diak (Jack) Anosh]

"For the first time, a majority of Americans — 56 percent — say it is possible to be a good person without a religious belief.

So says new Pew Research Center data drawn from two polls conducted among about 5,000 American adults in June and July.​

2600 out of 325 million is not a very good polling. Polls are notorious for giving statistics in compliance with whoever is doing the polling. It is dependent upon the selection of those being polled, and how the poll question is worded.

To just offer a supposed result is of no value. It is totally vague to the point of no value. How many were polled? 5000! What were their backgrounds? ??? Religious affiliation? ??? Political party? ??? Socio-economic standing? ??? Moral standing? ??? etc. ???

“God is not a prerequisite for good values and morality,”

Needs to define terms - "God" - "good" - "Values" - "Morality."

Often, those who make assessments about God do not know God, they only know what books about God have said. The bible is not a book about God, it is a book BY and OF God.

Greg Smith, Pew’s associate director of research, said in a post about the findings. ” … [T]he public’s increased rejection of the idea that belief in God is necessary for morality is due, in large part, to the spike in the share of Americans who are religious ‘nones.'”

It takes more faith to be an Agnostic or an Atheist than it does to be a Christian. Therefore, "none" does not tell the story. It hides the facts.

Nones now account for about one-quarter — 23 percent — of American adults, up from 16 percent in 2007. But their growth is not the whole story behind the numbers.

In the current poll, Protestants and Catholics were also polled, and 45 percent of them agree that God is not necessary for personal morality, up from 42 percent in 2011.

Even white evangelicals, who traditionally believe a relationship with God is crucial to morality, have budged. In 2011, one quarter of them (26 percent) said it was possible to be good without God, while now almost a third (32 percent) say so.

That is just a reflection of how far the churches have let the people down. Their mistranslations, and false doctrines, their creeds and "orthodox" positions, mostly at variance with each other, cannot serve as a rallying cry as long as there is not a survey delineating the belief system and accompanying understanding levels. You cannot just throw out a question among strangers, and expect them to be in compliance with a common understanding of terminology. How then canyou expect them to honestly reflect on an issue as complex as "Morality" and "Goodness?"

“To be sure, most white evangelicals still say belief in God is necessary for morality,” Smith writes. “But the share who say belief in God is a necessary underpinning of being moral has declined from 72 percent to 65 percent in just six years.”
source

So, what do you think, is a belief in god unnecessary to be good?
.

Why do you now reverse the question?

You go from an assertion - “God is not a prerequisite for good values and morality,”

to a question - "is a belief in god unnecessary to be good?"

Define "good;"

Define "God."

Define "Necessary."

Define "Unnecessary."

Define "Morality."

Identify the persons qualified to make the judgments necessary for the conclusion.