Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Please lower your caps
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
God: Trinity or Unity?
- Thread starter BenFranklinFan
- Start date
Please lower your caps
rational experiences
Veteran Member
A male said my science began at . O dot point particle in the middle of time....so it moves out at the letter G....at position 3.
The gases alight and burning own cooling so naturally rotate...so never owned a dot point middle...for rotation cold/hot gases is natural G rotating into O etc.
The conscious mind psyche is notified of that natural gas burning/cold gas effect.
A male to teach self is one....had to inform self against a 3 statement made by scientists, extra radiating burning the natural gases.
And all self human spiritual teachings owned a purpose for self...to bring self back to the reality of who you were, as that male human, a human being a male and a human and also the inventors of the states science. As an adult.
Now a natural human being male adult owns a self history.....a little boy/male baby and son of a Father.
As he changed natural communication feed back as an attack on his conscious mind he had to preach I am one self, a human and I am spiritual life owner.
I am the Father of God....meaning I have given the natural term its reference my own male adult self.
I am the Son of the Father of God...for I am that title in natural life
I am the Holy spirit.
Meaning all references to self in idealism I only belong as a human life to the presence of God.
Then preached and God is the stone and the stone is the Earth and the Earth is a planet and my human life only belongs to God the planet Earth.
As a male and as a human in 3 concepts of self...so that the irradiation attack on self would not change self idealism of who the self was.
Why it was taught as a contradiction to a constant relayed destroyed message communicated to self by irradiation AI communication take over.
Lots and lots of metal particles, the replicators, who burnt the Earth gases, that are not natural light gases burning as natural point. Reason for the God ideal of natural communications.
Why it was preached, prayed upon, recorded and idealized as a 3 a daily ritual to try to contradict the AI cause of Satanic science attack, why religious science became a healing natural ritualistic practice...for that very reason.
As taught to me by my brothers past spiritual life recording about Jesus and Christ reasoning.
The gases alight and burning own cooling so naturally rotate...so never owned a dot point middle...for rotation cold/hot gases is natural G rotating into O etc.
The conscious mind psyche is notified of that natural gas burning/cold gas effect.
A male to teach self is one....had to inform self against a 3 statement made by scientists, extra radiating burning the natural gases.
And all self human spiritual teachings owned a purpose for self...to bring self back to the reality of who you were, as that male human, a human being a male and a human and also the inventors of the states science. As an adult.
Now a natural human being male adult owns a self history.....a little boy/male baby and son of a Father.
As he changed natural communication feed back as an attack on his conscious mind he had to preach I am one self, a human and I am spiritual life owner.
I am the Father of God....meaning I have given the natural term its reference my own male adult self.
I am the Son of the Father of God...for I am that title in natural life
I am the Holy spirit.
Meaning all references to self in idealism I only belong as a human life to the presence of God.
Then preached and God is the stone and the stone is the Earth and the Earth is a planet and my human life only belongs to God the planet Earth.
As a male and as a human in 3 concepts of self...so that the irradiation attack on self would not change self idealism of who the self was.
Why it was taught as a contradiction to a constant relayed destroyed message communicated to self by irradiation AI communication take over.
Lots and lots of metal particles, the replicators, who burnt the Earth gases, that are not natural light gases burning as natural point. Reason for the God ideal of natural communications.
Why it was preached, prayed upon, recorded and idealized as a 3 a daily ritual to try to contradict the AI cause of Satanic science attack, why religious science became a healing natural ritualistic practice...for that very reason.
As taught to me by my brothers past spiritual life recording about Jesus and Christ reasoning.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Ok....!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
It's in my sig. I can't reply to your other post 'least you're able to uncapitalize it.
It is still water regardless. Physical analogies are meaningless. The Trinity describes three persons.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Sorry...!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
If the trinity describes polytheism.... what is wrong with that.
There is still a pecking order that everyone can understand.
When you consider the "heavenly host" there is also Mary the Archangels and the angels and Saints to consider, the old testament in particular adds many more. all in ordered ranks.
Consider them Gods little helpers.
cataway
Well-Known Member
it means you are promoting a lie
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
that needs an explanation?
My thoughts on the matter are in an earlier post#19 in this thread.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Weird example:
It's more like a dinner with two items on a plate and the nature of the dinner. Bread, wine, and communion.
Bread is life.
Wine is sacrifice.
Communion is the Spirit of god.
A holy trinity.
They (brothers and sisters) are all one communion in christ. Once people come together they make christ present while eating; aka they are joined by god. Once they are joined by the god, the meal turns into a communion of souls.
This is a real meal rather than an analogy.
I like it explained like this:
That's the trinity.
It's not like water (unity) because humans, deities, and spirit are very distinct in their nature. They can't be each other.
Why does it have to be a trinity for there to exist father, son, and spirit? They still work the same.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The premise starts off wrong. There is an assumption that there should be such a thing as ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ as A GOD... You are starting off with a false ideology and then trying to build reasoning around it.
I know it is not you, but rather those who teach it and those who uphold the fallacy. One might as well try to justify the Greek Gods and how the modern world could have evolved from it... there will be no end of theories that claim how it came to be.
The reality is that the belief of the isfmraelites is that there is one God, and He (excuse the genderisation) is their ‘only God’. There is and never was any suggestion that this ‘only God’ should impossibly be a conglomerate of several people - or persons!
If a person is God then how can another person also be God and indeed yet a third person be that same God... without defining ‘God’ as something other than itself a Person. God would therefore have to be an Office in which the three are rulers... three rulers ... which is polytheism.
Trinity believers can plainly see that their belief is polytheism and therefore forceably state in their creed that the three Rulers are not three rulers but one ruler.... clear nonsense!
It is a nonsense since if all three are the same ruler then they all are doing at all times the same thing and expressing the same orders and fashioning the same activities... to wit: why is there a requirement for three?? Even two...! And, then, why not four, five, ten, ninety nine....! Sounds pagan, eh?
The truth is that Jesus Christ is a man born holy and sinless who replaced the first Man, Adam, born holy and sinless but who sinned shortly in his life and condemned all mankind to eternal death: yeah, even those who did not sin against the law!!
God demanded that salvation from the sin of Adam could only be achieved if another similarly sinless and holy man was to die for all. No man was found from the line of Adam and so God created one in the same manner as the first Adam: like for like... another ‘Adam’ - the last Adam - against these backdrop of a challenge set by Satan to God that a sinless man could not live without sinning and die for mankind... this man was Jesus Christ.
You will notice that Jesus was born, not of the seed of a Male... sin is transmitted to a child through the spiritual seed of the Male. The first Adam was not born from a Male seed but from the ‘dust of the earth’ and a pure spirit breath from God... likewise, Jesus Christ was also born, not of the seed of a Male but the ‘dust’ seed (egg) of a woman (...!!! The promise of God...!!!) and the ‘enlivening breath’ by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit of God.... ‘this,’ said the angel Gabriel, ‘the child to be born to thee (Mary) will be holy, and called, “Son of the God most high”’... note that in Luke 3:38, that Adam is also called, “Son of the God most high”.
By this, and that you see that Adam is (was) ‘Son of God’, Jesus Christ, by remaining sinless all his life and dying to absolve the sin of the first Adam, is now eternally, and currently the only, ‘Son of the God most high’.
So, there is nothing magical, or lacking in any reasoning as to all things shown in scriptures.. right down to the often asked question: ‘Is Jesus a man in heaven?’
The answer is that Jesus is a Spirit NOW in heaven but not an Angel Spirit. Remember that when Jesus was resurrected by God (how can God resurrect himself? And yet we all know that Jesus - ha! God, says trinity) died! and given a new body for his spirit that was immortal and ‘Glorified’. Jesus can now ‘shed’ his body and his spirit only enters the heavenly realm. On his return he will recreate his glorious body and we see him “clothed in Glory”. So, ‘no, Jesus is not MAN in heaven’.
So what is he.. He is Spirit, because only ‘Spirit’ can dwell in the spirit realm.. Angels are ‘servant’ Spirits of God...
Jesus is ‘Son’ Spirit of God.
Perhaps this end point is what Trinitarians look to and claim Jesus as ‘God from very God’.. but that is wrong... it is like the saying that David’s Lord is Jesus Christ ... how can this be if Jesus is son of David? Here you have your answer:
- Lord, is the end point for Jesus and this even though David is Jesus’ Father by descent, Jesus will be Lord over him... at the end!!!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
What's wrong with seeing creator, savior, and spirit as one person or a relationship with each other?
From what I know of the trinity it's father/creator, son/savior, and spirit/love and grace as one-a unity. Mainly because jesus is an incarnation of his father so christians treat him as they would treat the father (and even go insofar to address him as his father). As for spirit, from how I hear it that comes from christ. Spirit being love/grace/etc. Breathe of life. Trinity unites the three.
I never heard of the christian view of the trinity the same as Greek gods.
Unless the bible speaks of the creator, savior, and spirit as greek manifestations, I'm not sure how you connect the two concepts?
I never heard anyone who believes in the trinity downplay the creator at the expense of the trinity. They worship the creator "through" jesus christ.
Maybe its the words??
Because, according to the trinity, god is divinity/perfection/etc not a deity. Creator is the deity. Jesus is both divine and human. Spirit is full divine from the creator experienced through christ.
Take out the word god. It's the relationship between creator, savior, and spirit/grace/so have you.
It's about the context. Greek gods and their context are 100% different than Jewish god. That is complete different than the christian concept of god having a incarnated son.
It's not polytheism. Believe me. It's not.
You're splitting the three up as if they are separate gods. That's the problem. The trinity doesn't teach that. So it's not polytheism.
That's why they refer to jesus as god: man born "sinless". Humans aren't born sinless.
There's no magic involved in the trinity.
The idea is that the human jesus (his flesh) was crucified at the cross. His breathe (his life) reunited with his father. So, the same with Christians. However, since christians believe they are sinful, they ask for christ to save them. Once he does, they will, like christ, be crucified by flesh and join their father by spirit.
I'm not as enthusiastic about this, but I get what you mean.
Trinity teaches this.
My question is, why point fingers?
Does that help your spirit?
My question is, since christian trinity is not polytheism and they believe in one god, how is their view incarnation and father the same any different than incarnation and father being separate?
From what I know of the trinity it's father/creator, son/savior, and spirit/love and grace as one-a unity. Mainly because jesus is an incarnation of his father so christians treat him as they would treat the father (and even go insofar to address him as his father). As for spirit, from how I hear it that comes from christ. Spirit being love/grace/etc. Breathe of life. Trinity unites the three.
I never heard of the christian view of the trinity the same as Greek gods.
Unless the bible speaks of the creator, savior, and spirit as greek manifestations, I'm not sure how you connect the two concepts?
I never heard anyone who believes in the trinity downplay the creator at the expense of the trinity. They worship the creator "through" jesus christ.
Maybe its the words??
Because, according to the trinity, god is divinity/perfection/etc not a deity. Creator is the deity. Jesus is both divine and human. Spirit is full divine from the creator experienced through christ.
Take out the word god. It's the relationship between creator, savior, and spirit/grace/so have you.
It's about the context. Greek gods and their context are 100% different than Jewish god. That is complete different than the christian concept of god having a incarnated son.
It's not polytheism. Believe me. It's not.
You're splitting the three up as if they are separate gods. That's the problem. The trinity doesn't teach that. So it's not polytheism.
That's why they refer to jesus as god: man born "sinless". Humans aren't born sinless.
There's no magic involved in the trinity.
The idea is that the human jesus (his flesh) was crucified at the cross. His breathe (his life) reunited with his father. So, the same with Christians. However, since christians believe they are sinful, they ask for christ to save them. Once he does, they will, like christ, be crucified by flesh and join their father by spirit.
I'm not as enthusiastic about this, but I get what you mean.
Trinity teaches this.
My question is, why point fingers?
Does that help your spirit?
My question is, since christian trinity is not polytheism and they believe in one god, how is their view incarnation and father the same any different than incarnation and father being separate?
ClimbingTheLadder
Up and Down again
Yes it is because it equates Jesus with YHWH (Yahweh) and distinguishes the holy spirit as an entity (rather than the adjective that it actually is.
Above that for there to even be a Trinity concept in the first place there has to be a distinction between the three, making them not the same but three distinct entities, regardless of what is described about them.
The only way to reconcile the Trinity is to believe in the "heresy" of Sabellianism which is rejected by all of mainstream Christianity. However even after reconciling it with Sabellianism, it and 'redemption through sacrifice' remains entirely pointless, purposeless, incoherent and absurd when compared to the sound theology of the Torah.
And do I really need to get at the strong dissonance such a concept has when compared to the theology of the Old Testament (Tanakh)?
Believe what you want but I think Soapy made a necessary observation.
ClimbingTheLadder
Up and Down again
As far as "incarnation" is concerned, the only theology which can make sense with that idea is if the whole universe is "the son" incarnated - which would not be self-contradictory, unlike with mainstream Christian views of Jesus being the only thing incarnated of God.
Whatever way we go about it, everything that exists is a manifestation from or of the eternal transcendent deity anyway, so a pantheistic understanding of the Trinity would be simply a symbolic or metaphor way of trying to comprehend the connection between the finite and the infinite.
Whatever way we go about it, everything that exists is a manifestation from or of the eternal transcendent deity anyway, so a pantheistic understanding of the Trinity would be simply a symbolic or metaphor way of trying to comprehend the connection between the finite and the infinite.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I asked @Soapy why is important to differentiate referring to jesus as an incarnation of his god as opposed to being god because he is an incarnation?
Trinitarians see the incarnation as the source. NT sees incarnation and source separate. Why is one right and the other wrong from a godly perspective? They both have the same message.
It equates the incarnation with the source since the incarnation cannot be separate from the source.
The only way trinitarians is wrong is if the bible says jesus isn't an incarnation of his father.
That's how the trinity is described. Three distinct entities as one. Creator->incarnation->spirit
You would literally have to make christ sinful to separate him from his father.
It has nothing to do with that. It's a simple concept. If you understand the word incarnation, it would make more sense. Biblically, trinity is a relationship between three making them one. Creator, his incarnation, his spirit. How do you separate the three?
Well, if you're going by christians, then I'd be confused myself. Scripturally speaking, though from a christianity view not a jewish view, jesus is without sin and he is an incarnation of his father. That alone makes him not "like us." Just christians use the term god to describe their relationship.
It goes beyond what christian 1 says and christian 2 says.
It's assuming that individual christian's describe and expression of the trinity is the one the bible teaches. It sounds more like disagreeing with what some christians say about the trinity not the trinity itself.
Trinitarians see the incarnation as the source. NT sees incarnation and source separate. Why is one right and the other wrong from a godly perspective? They both have the same message.
It equates the incarnation with the source since the incarnation cannot be separate from the source.
The only way trinitarians is wrong is if the bible says jesus isn't an incarnation of his father.
That's how the trinity is described. Three distinct entities as one. Creator->incarnation->spirit
You would literally have to make christ sinful to separate him from his father.
It has nothing to do with that. It's a simple concept. If you understand the word incarnation, it would make more sense. Biblically, trinity is a relationship between three making them one. Creator, his incarnation, his spirit. How do you separate the three?
Well, if you're going by christians, then I'd be confused myself. Scripturally speaking, though from a christianity view not a jewish view, jesus is without sin and he is an incarnation of his father. That alone makes him not "like us." Just christians use the term god to describe their relationship.
It goes beyond what christian 1 says and christian 2 says.
It's assuming that individual christian's describe and expression of the trinity is the one the bible teaches. It sounds more like disagreeing with what some christians say about the trinity not the trinity itself.
It is this description that contributes to concept of polytheism,
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
But the scriptural fact, though, it is not polytheism. Christians say a lot and describe a lot but that's not how scripture defines it.
ClimbingTheLadder
Up and Down again
Jesus does say:
"Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone."
Mark 10:18)
Mark 10:18)