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Featured God of awe or God of love?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    How often have you heard people saying there are two Gods in the Bible, the "fearsome" God of the Tanakh (OT) and the God of love in the Christian portion?

    Jews refer to God as Avinu Malkenu, Our Father Our King. In fact, during these High Holy Days of autumn, this prayer becomes especially dear to us.

    I would argue that either Our King or Our Father alone without the other is entirely unbalanced. We must have both sides in order to experience the fullness of HaShem.

    It's not just that both sides are in the scripture (and they are -- this nonsense that the God of the Tanakh is all fear and no love is baseless). It's that fear without love is horrifying, and love without discipline is sick.

    In the metaphor of Father, we have a God who is on a higher plane than us, an who wishes what is best for us. He therefore sets boundaries for us, and consequences if we deviate from the rules, as any good parent does. In saying he is King of the Universe, we acknowledge his awesome power -- and his restraint. He does not wish to punish, he wishes for our repentance so that he can forgive. But truly, he holds the very fabric of the universe together -- and can destroy it in a moment should he wish. That kind of power has to be respected. In reality, human beings fall flat on our faces when we encounter the much lesser power of angels. How much more overwhelming would we feel in the presence of the Almighty? Yet we also respond to his love. Those who study such things say that "worship" is when we feel fear and joy simultaneously.
     
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  2. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I would not equate the God of Fear, with the God of Awe. Awe and reverence is a response of profound love. When encountering the God of Fear, the responses are anxiety, worry, concern, and the need to escape or to somehow control the situation through appeasement, strict obedience lest you be smitten, etc. That is not love.

    When encountering the God of Love, on the other hand, which is the God I believe in, encountering this leaves one completely and totally free of all fear. Love is the opposite of fear. Fear is the opposite of Love. One is left completely and utterly in awe of the pure Beauty of the Divine. Reverence and worship is a response of Love, not fear. Fear responds in self-preservation. Love responds in self-emptying and devotion. Fear is not of God. God is Love.
     
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  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    The God of "awe" being of a personal nature, in my beliefs, I would say all your descriptions are a bit interesting. The god of awe presumably has to have awe aspect, and that's even more so, for me, [harsher Hell, so that's sort of inherent to that.
     
    #3 Desert Snake, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    I believe there are some problems with that assessment. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that slight breaking of the [morality rules, is going to infer the wrath of hell, however, it isn't like there are 'no rules'. So, you're back to "awe", there.
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    That is a wrong assessment of both the 'Bible', [doesn't even make sense or follow religion, and a wrong assessment of Biblical theology.
     
  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Why does following rules have to have anything to do with fear of retribution? That's not necessary. I think that is the key difference in how we see ourselves and God. Do you believe that if there was no threat from outside yourself, you would choose to not be moral?
     
  7. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Somehow "awe" means one thing and "awful" (full of awe?) another.

    To me, when I see or experience something of profound beauty I feel awe and not the "awful" feeling of fear. The feeling of awe at an expression of divinity in and of itself is motivating to remove barriers between myself and what I perceive as the epitome of truth and beauty.

    And further I think we are slowly growing past the point of needing external rules with enforced with reward and punishment.

    Rabia of Basra put it this way:

    O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell
    If I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
    But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
    deny me not Your everlasting Beauty.
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    IOW, "my house, my rules. I brought you into this world and I can take you out."

    I don't know about respected, but if we're going to use the metaphor of a father, it should be recognized that the father in the metaphor is an abusive one.
     
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  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    You have oddly shifted this to a concept outside 'rules', and of course the concept of hell, so forth.

    So, your question is abstract to the discussion.
     
    #9 Desert Snake, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I would say god of awe. I was listening to a Unitarian Universalist sermon that I liked. The pastor was describing what god was to a lot of us who cannot understand the word beyond our own experiences and/or biases sounding it. He says that think of something so profound that changed your life; what was that Moment of awe that changed your life? He also said think of a value (love, justice, etc) that if there was nothing else you can call for to help you in this word, what name would you call?

    i.e. Love! Come here and help me; I need you.
    i.e. Justice! I need you to save mankind. There's only but so much I can do. We need you.

    On the other hand, which would you say you experienced so profound that that Word in itself, that experience, changed your life?

    i.e. Love saved me. Love wrapped me in its arms and leads me to love others.
    i.e. Justice changed me. It lead me to...

    If going by this, god of awe is redundant. God Is awe. If we were to describe this awe, some would say it/god is love.

    Other than that, I would say god is awe. I don't see fear running beside it. Though, maybe Fear has saved people's lives, I don't know.

    There's my thoughts.
     
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Mainly I hear this online not from evangelicals of my acquaintance such as charismatics and baptists.

    I did not know this.

    Why king of the universe? Why not just king of Israel?
     
  12. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I also think reverence and worship is a response of Love, not fear. Yet, I do think there is such a thing as healthy fear, as in respect. I can't think of anything greater than God, Who is an all-powerful, consuming fire for which to have a healthy respect and love, which the scriptures say cast out fear.
     
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  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I consider this a rather naive and selective view of an ancient world view of the Hebrew God and a little more ancient God(s), and not much different from the naive selective view of the Christian God(s) of the New Testament as the God of Love. There are virtues and attributes of love an compassion of God in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. but there it is also clouded with ancient tribal views of God(s) in both, which translates to an exclusive us versus them (non-believers) tribal view, like Islam, of the outside world Einstein's view was an extreme view, but much closer to reality than that of Judaism, Christianity nor Islam.
     
  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    The "father god" archetype is widespread in religions. The head of my pantheon is called the Allfather, for example. The wrathful father god was especially popular in Middle Eastern religions, I've noticed. You even see this with Zeus, who is Indo-European but whose worship became influenced by Middle Eastern culture.
     
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I simply focused on what you shifted this to:

    You brought up "rules". What you seemed to be saying is that if I am right about God is love, and there is no fear, and that awe is a response of love, would mean that "anything goes". Without fear of punishment, you have no reason to obey the rules. Without fear, you would be immoral.

    Is that what you believe?
     
  16. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I do not believe we should ever use the term "fear" to describe respect. If you respected me for instance, would you ever say you fear me to mean that? I would hope not. That sends a very wrong message.

    We do not live in the 1700s. Fear means afraid.

    noun
    1. an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.
    verb
    1. be afraid of (someone or something) as likely to be dangerous, painful, or threatening.
    I cannot see how fear and God go together on any level that conveys the meaning of the word fear defined above.

    Respect I get. Fear I don't.
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    No, that is more like a 'general question'.
    And the fact that there are 'rules', means that your definition of 'love', either has to be explained, in that context, or, perhaps you don't believe in either rules, or hell.

    The fact that there are 'rules', and hell, so forth, may or may not be equated with fear, and that is getting to what we would be calling 'abstract'.

    Aside from that, your 'interpretation', that I meant, Theism is "based on fear of divine retribution", is incorrect, and I didn't say that at all.

    Your religious and deity ideas might be affecting your 'interpretations', and that could happen if you have a impersonal deity concept, (thusly everything is based on your actions, and the deity is just like a computer program, or abacus.
     
    #17 Desert Snake, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Because the God of Abraham is the CREATOR.
     
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    In your belief.
     
  20. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    This makes me think of the iconography of the goddess Kali. Outwardly she is terrifying and horrific, but she bids us to approach with no fear. This is because she is the All and this includes the horrific aspects of life that scare us, but inwardly she is beautiful and teaches us not to fear anything, as we are also the All and eternal. Being able to understand that is supposed to be a mark of a true devotee to Kali. Then we may rush to her with childlike joy as we understand her as the loving Mother of the universe. The ones who get hung up on her gory imagery are viewed as too spiritually immature and they should go with a more gentle image of the Divine.

    So that's another way to view the fear vs. love dichotomy.
     
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