God did it

[BilliardsBall]

Don't be foolish.

The bible is not accurate, not logical, not honest, not consistent, not provable and not verifiable in any way, in terms of its supernatural / religious claims. At all.

We distinguish accurate ideas from false ideas by testing them against observable reality.
"true" are those things that correspond to reality.

Religions / faith based beliefs can't be contrasted to reality as they are explicitly defined as unfalsifiable and by extension unverifiable. That's why faith is required. You gotta "just believe". Testable ideas don't require mere "belief", as they can be... you know....verfified.

All you wrote is excellent, given the codicil "via your range of human experience".

You might as well claim special knowledge of no God--since you'd need omniscient knowledge to do so.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So, did that person "reveal" his wisdom to his future flock by any chance?



Do be able to discover falsity, the thing needs to be falsifiable to begin with, which religious claims are not.
Unfalsifiable claims are potentially infinite in number, only really limited by what your imagination can produce.

So no, it's not a double standard. It's a single standard. What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. You, likely, dismiss claims of bigfoot, scientology, alien abduction, etc, for the exact same reasons.



Any kind of independend verifiable evidence that would demonstrate such, instead of having to "just believe" it happened.



How would I know that it wasn't a hallucination or that I was tricked into something?
Why would my claim of such to my friends be any different from the claims of alien abductees or claiming that Jessica Alba crawled out of the TV screen during a movie, made love to me and then went back into the TV to finish the movie?

How could you distinguish to truth value between these claims?

Some differences between your Alba anecdote and what I'm trusting in:

1) I have 40 authors writing univocally about the Christ over 1,500 years on three continents
2) The Bible has prescient prophecies proven demonstrably true, for example, modern Israel has fulfilled over 60 distinct prophecies since 1948--observable in media reports and modern histories
3) I experience God--your experiences are not logically the only ones on Earth
4) Following the Bible leads to life and peace--you are demonstrating a self-destructive skepticism that leads to death and suffering

 

[Wandering Monk]

Some differences between your Alba anecdote and what I'm trusting in:

1) I have 40 authors writing univocally about the Christ over 1,500 years on three continents

There is an explanation that needs less magical assumptions: The Jesus narrative was created by ex post facto by early Christians using the OT.

2) The Bible has prescient prophecies proven demonstrably true, for example, modern Israel has fulfilled over 60 distinct prophecies since 1948--observable in media reports and modern histories

Need to see your source for this assertion.

3) I experience God--your experiences are not logically the only ones on Earth

Others have religious experiences. Big deal.

4) Following the Bible leads to life and peace--you are demonstrating a self-destructive skepticism that leads to death and suffering

Centuries of war and violence between Christians belies this assertion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All you wrote is excellent, given the codicil "via your range of human experience".

You might as well claim special knowledge of no God--since you'd need omniscient knowledge to do so.

"via human experience" is the best we humans can do.
Your appeal to special abilities of "special humans" is not convincing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Some differences between your Alba anecdote and what I'm trusting in:

1) I have 40 authors writing univocally about the Christ over 1,500 years on three continents
2) The Bible has prescient prophecies proven demonstrably true, for example, modern Israel has fulfilled over 60 distinct prophecies since 1948--observable in media reports and modern histories
3) I experience God--your experiences are not logically the only ones on Earth
4) Following the Bible leads to life and peace--you are demonstrating a self-destructive skepticism that leads to death and suffering

My Alba anecdote was in comparision to your own example of what I would do if I would come to believe that Jesus appeared to me by materializing out of seemingly nothing before my eyes.

I was not drawing an analogy to an entire religion.

Having said that, I think @Wandering Monk gave you excellent responses to those points.

 

[BilliardsBall]

"via human experience" is the best we humans can do.
Your appeal to special abilities of "special humans" is not convincing.

It isn't--the Bible shows prescience and prophecy beyond ordinary human efforts. That's the point.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My Alba anecdote was in comparision to your own example of what I would do if I would come to believe that Jesus appeared to me by materializing out of seemingly nothing before my eyes.

I was not drawing an analogy to an entire religion.

Having said that, I think @Wandering Monk gave you excellent responses to those points.

I agree! An atheist is someone who demands Jesus appear to them upon command--but if He did, they'd call an atheist friend to say, "A hallucination just told me to cleanse my moral lifestyle!"

 

[ecco]

All you wrote is excellent, given the codicil "via your range of human experience".

You might as well claim special knowledge of no God--since you'd need omniscient knowledge to do so.

Is Allah a God? Is Shiva? Without omniscient knowledge how do you know?

What I know is that you apply double standards to everything.

 

[ecco]

An atheist is someone who demands Jesus appear to them upon command

That is a flat out falsehood.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is an explanation that needs less magical assumptions: The Jesus narrative was created by ex post facto by early Christians using the OT.



Need to see your source for this assertion.



Others have religious experiences. Big deal.



Centuries of war and violence between Christians belies this assertion.

Why would Christians post facto invent a resurrection? Because they loved expulsion from synagogues and Roman martyrdom? Why did 12 authors conspire to write the NT? What was the gain there, do you think?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It isn't--the Bible shows prescience and prophecy beyond ordinary human efforts. That's the point.

No, the bible -which is the words of men just written down- CLAIMS that.
It doesn't show anything.

My point exactly. Your (or the bible's) appeals to "special" abilities and access to "special" knowledge, is unconvincing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree! An atheist is someone who demands Jesus appear to them upon command

I never once said or demanded such.
I have no interest at all in going out of my way to convince myself of a religion that isn't convincing.

Just like you likely have no interest at all in trying to figure out how to convince yourself of the supposed truth of scientology or hinduism.
Why would you bother?

It's an exercise in futility.
And it's not upto me either, to try and come up with ways to demonstrate the religious beliefs of others.

I'm not the one making those claims. If the ones making those claims wish to convince me of their supposed truth value, they are welcome to come up with and present me with their evidence and I'll happily consider and evaluate it.

But I have zero reason, motivation, interest, time and energy to do THEIR homework.

--but if He did, they'd call an atheist friend to say, "A hallucination just told me to cleanse my moral lifestyle!"

Isn't it funny how Jesus only ever appears to people familiar with judeo christian culture and how the Norse gods ever only appeared to Vikings?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why would Christians post facto invent a resurrection? Because they loved expulsion from synagogues and Roman martyrdom? Why did 12 authors conspire to write the NT? What was the gain there, do you think?

There could be a million reasons - all of which do not require assuming that the laws of nature were suspendend and/or violated. Right out the gates, each and every one of such reasons is infinitly more plausible then the supernatural superstition.

This is basically what irrationality is: to believe the insane explanation without evidence, over the infinitly more plausible ones that don't require such extra-ordinary assumptions.

Always ask yourself "what is more likely?"

And the laws of nature being suspended and / or violated, while the alternatives require no such assumptions, ALWAYS is the less likely outcome.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, the bible -which is the words of men just written down- CLAIMS that.
It doesn't show anything.

My point exactly. Your (or the bible's) appeals to "special" abilities and access to "special" knowledge, is unconvincing.

Huh? What? The Bible says Israel would be restored in 1948 CE, so tell me it doesn't "show" any "special knowledge"?!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I never once said or demanded such.
I have no interest at all in going out of my way to convince myself of a religion that isn't convincing.

Just like you likely have no interest at all in trying to figure out how to convince yourself of the supposed truth of scientology or hinduism.
Why would you bother?

It's an exercise in futility.
And it's not upto me either, to try and come up with ways to demonstrate the religious beliefs of others.

I'm not the one making those claims. If the ones making those claims wish to convince me of their supposed truth value, they are welcome to come up with and present me with their evidence and I'll happily consider and evaluate it.

But I have zero reason, motivation, interest, time and energy to do THEIR homework.



Isn't it funny how Jesus only ever appears to people familiar with judeo christian culture and how the Norse gods ever only appeared to Vikings?

Not at all, the Norse gods appeared to me when I watched the Avengers last week.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There could be a million reasons - all of which do not require assuming that the laws of nature were suspendend and/or violated. Right out the gates, each and every one of such reasons is infinitly more plausible then the supernatural superstition.

This is basically what irrationality is: to believe the insane explanation without evidence, over the infinitly more plausible ones that don't require such extra-ordinary assumptions.

Always ask yourself "what is more likely?"

And the laws of nature being suspended and / or violated, while the alternatives require no such assumptions, ALWAYS is the less likely outcome.

I don't want a "million reasons", I want three from you:

1)
2)
3)

 

[Wandering Monk]

Huh? What? The Bible says Israel would be restored in 1948 CE, so tell me it doesn't "show" any "special knowledge"?!

Oh really? Not just some mangled interpretation of yours?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Is Allah a God? Is Shiva? Without omniscient knowledge how do you know?

What I know is that you apply double standards to everything.

Allah/Shiva: Document demonstrably false
Bible: Documents clearly prescient/prophetic/life-changing

How do YOU know one book is good and one is false? The same ways I do!

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is a flat out falsehood.

Hmmm, you know how many atheists have told me to my face, "I'll (maybe) believe when Jesus appears to me personally!"

Yet He has via His ambassadors appeared, to Thou.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Huh? What? The Bible says Israel would be restored in 1948 CE,

The bible says no such thing.