God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[CG Didymus]

I cannot post all the non-vague prophecies on this forum, but I will post you one example and explain why it is not vague. Then maybe later I can post some others if you are still interested.

There are so many prophecies but Micah 7:12 is a good example of a prophecy that is not vague..

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

View attachment 43020

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Are you sure the KJV has translated the word for "he" correctly? Different translations have "they" or "People", including the New King James. Plus, I looked up maps of ancient Assyria and I don't think it went as far east as where Teheran is located.
New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

New Living Translation
People from many lands will come and honor you— from Assyria all the way to the towns of Egypt, from Egypt all the way to the Euphrates River, and from distant seas and mountains.

English Standard Version
In that day they will come to you, from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt to the River, from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

Berean Study Bible
On that day they will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates, from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

New American Standard Bible
It will be a day when they will come to you From Assyria and the cities of Egypt, From Egypt even to the Euphrates, Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

New King James Version
In that day they shall come to you From Assyria and the fortified cities, From the fortress to the River, From sea to sea, And mountain to mountain.

King James Bible
In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Christian Standard Bible
On that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates River and from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

Contemporary English Version
People will flock to you from Assyria and Egypt, from Babylonia and everywhere else.

Good News Translation
Your people will return to you from everywhere--from Assyria in the east, from Egypt in the south, from the region of the Euphrates River, from distant seas and far-off mountains.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
On that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates River and from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

International Standard Version
At that time armies will invade you from Assyria, from Egyptian cities to the Euphrates River, from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

NET Bible
In that day people will come to you from Assyria as far as Egypt, from Egypt as far as the Euphrates River, from the seacoasts and the mountains.

New Heart English Bible
In that day they will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt even to the River, and from sea to sea, and mountain to mountain.

A Faithful Version
In that day people shall come even to you from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When that day comes, your people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, from Egypt to the Euphrates River, from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

JPS Tanakh 1917
There shall be a day when they shall come unto thee, From Assyria even to the cities of Egypt, And from Egypt even to the River, And from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

 

[CG Didymus]

The method worked fine because the message is there for people who really want it.
However, one has to be seeking in order to find the message. Those who seek are rewarded.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Jesus explained why some people understand the message and others do not:

Matthew 13:16-17
But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Why do you quote the NT as if you understand and believe it?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you quote the NT as if you understand and believe it?

Because I do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Because I do.

Only that they do not consider Jesus as God / Son of God, do not believe in immaculate conception of Mary, they do not believe in Jesus' resurrection, and for them the gate is not controlled by Jesus but by Bahaollah, a 19th Century uneducated Iranian preacher. Bahaollah prays to his Allah to punish those who do not agree with him.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Atheists still don't get it, what is convincing has nothing to do with what is true or false.

This cleared it right up for me. Now I am quite sure there is absolutely no reason to pay any heed to the words you, particularly, have say about "god."

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The method worked fine because the message is there for people who really want it.
However, one has to be seeking in order to find the message. Those who seek are rewarded.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Jesus explained why some people understand the message and others do not:

Matthew 13:16-17
But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

If only those who want to believe believe and the rest don't what does that say about this god?

To me, it says he isn't there or doesn't care. As inventing a religion or discovering a new version of it isn't beyond the capabilities of people we must look at the hard evidence. Where is it?

Not in evolution because that proves no god we know of had a hand in evolution.

So are we Humans just a 500 million to one freak of the universe? That you have more evidence than you do any god.

But I will ask again what's the downside of not believing?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Only that they do not consider Jesus as God / Son of God, do not believe in immaculate conception of Mary, they do not believe in Jesus' resurrection, and for them the gate is not controlled by Jesus but by Bahaollah, a 19th Century uneducated Iranian preacher. Bahaollah prays to his Allah to punish those who do not agree with him.

If an uneducated man can start a branch of religion and get people to think he has it right. Then most of us see the ease of creating a religion

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Dear @Trailblazer, @QuestioningMind and others,

For me, personally, it has worked in a way which suggests that Divine Messages reach us at the exact right moment, in the exact right manner. Meaning that the concepts are given to us in such way that we personally understand them and that those ways vary, for the same individual, over time, depending on their current frame of mind and level of understanding.

When I was little, the concepts would reach me through music, when I’d play the piano.

As a student (and an atheist, actually - I was raised atheist)), the concepts would reach me mathematically, because theoretical physics had by then become my “language”, so to say.

In my 30s, when I was ill and bored and began to play around with paints, the concepts would find me through my canvases and brushes.

When I’d begun studying religious texts, it was through them the concepts would unfold.

But no matter through which medium or in which language the concepts came, they all related to each other; like perfect pieces of a beautiful jigsaw.

Divine Messages are not just in scripture; they are everywhere, in everything, all the time. But we understand them if and when we are open and ready to do so.

If we remain present, attentive and inquisitive... if we keep humble and search for understanding, not for recognition and expansion of Ego ...then, the messages truly are everywhere.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One thing it implies is that God does not take any marching orders from humans.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

You asked for how Baha'u'llah's behaviour was consistent with what we might expect from a con artist? This would be one example.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ah, what translation! Direct from Chaucer's 14th Century England. Ordaineth, pleaseth, doeth, willeth, pleaseth again. Who did this translation?

 

[Clara Tea]

God gets so angry when he commands and no one heeds. Example, God clearly enunciated the dire consequences of defying him by attacking Iraq (Revelation 15 says, attack Iraq, get 7 plagues), and that's just one of many punishments. The bible was very clear about not attacking Iraq (called it Babylon, but modern Christian preachers have said...."oh, that's some other Babylon, far from here." Well, there is no other "real" Babylon, so we have to believe that Iraq was the one that the bible mentioned. God ordered humans to behave, and when they didn't, he flooded the world (save Noah et al). God ordered humans to behave, and when they didn't, he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of society). I wonder if such a tale was inspired by the Herculaneum pyroclastic floe that instantly incinerated people where they stood....now ash statues. The messages are clear, but humans are flawed (they hear but don't obey).

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Dear @Trailblazer, @QuestioningMind and others,

For me, personally, it has worked in a way which suggests that Divine Messages reach us at the exact right moment, in the exact right manner. Meaning that the concepts are given to us in such way that we personally understand them and that those ways vary, for the same individual, over time, depending on their current frame of mind and level of understanding.

When I was little, the concepts would reach me through music, when I’d play the piano.

As a student (and an atheist, actually - I was raised atheist)), the concepts would reach me mathematically, because theoretical physics had by then become my “language”, so to say.

In my 30s, when I was ill and bored and began to play around with paints, the concepts would find me through my canvases and brushes.

When I’d begun studying religious texts, it was through them the concepts would unfold.

But no matter through which medium or in which language the concepts came, they all related to each other; like perfect pieces of a beautiful jigsaw.

Divine Messages are not just in scripture; they are everywhere, in everything, all the time. But we understand them if and when we are open and ready to do so.

If we remain present, attentive and inquisitive... if we keep humble and search for understanding, not for recognition and expansion of Ego ...then, the messages truly are everywhere.

Humbly
Hermit

So another you only get the message if you believe. Much like the Loch Ness monster and Big Foot you only see what you want to.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaollah prays to his Allah to punish those who do not agree with him.

That is patently false. Every time you attack Baha'u'llah, and I have to defend Him, I am honored in the world to come, so you are doing me a big favor. Thanks.

“It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor.” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 329-330

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God gets so angry when he commands and no one heeds. Example, God clearly enunciated the dire consequences of defying him by attacking Iraq (Revelation 15 says, attack Iraq, get 7 plagues), and that's just one of many punishments. The bible was very clear about not attacking Iraq (called it Babylon, but modern Christian preachers have said...."oh, that's some other Babylon, far from here." Well, there is no other "real" Babylon, so we have to believe that Iraq was the one that the bible mentioned. God ordered humans to behave, and when they didn't, he flooded the world (save Noah et al). God ordered humans to behave, and when they didn't, he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of society). I wonder if such a tale was inspired by the Herculaneum pyroclastic floe that instantly incinerated people where they stood....now ash statues. The messages are clear, but humans are flawed (they hear but don't obey).

Except the flood never happened and Sodom and Gomorrah are natural events and nothing to do with a god.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

So another you only get the message if you believe. Much like the Loch Ness monster and Big Foot you only see what you want to.

Hello Paul

As mentioned; the concepts always reached me, even as an atheist - the “language” was just different.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Hello Paul

As mentioned; the concepts always reached me, even as an atheist - the “language” was just different.

Humbly
Hermit

So what was the message you didn't understand?

 

[ppp]

If we remain present, attentive and inquisitive... if we keep humble and search for understanding, not for recognition and expansion of Ego ...then, the messages truly are everywhere

Or it is simply confirmation bias and pareidolia.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God gets so angry when he commands and no one heeds.

Your personal pareidolia is not the same thing as "God's command."

Example, God clearly enunciated the dire consequences of defying him by attacking Iraq (Revelation 15 says, attack Iraq, get 7 plagues), and that's just one of many punishments. The bible was very clear about not attacking Iraq (called it Babylon, but modern Christian preachers have said...."oh, that's some other Babylon, far from here." Well, there is no other "real" Babylon, so we have to believe that Iraq was the one that the bible mentioned.

Wait - which is it: did God say this, or did the Bible?

It seemd to me that if - as you point out - even Christians can't agree on what the Bible is trying to say, then whoever wrote it isn't a very good communicator.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Or it is simply confirmation bias and pareidolia.

Dear Joe,

I noticed that was not a question, so I’m assuming it’s meant as a statement?

I am not sure it matters what we choose to call it. We are registers and pattern-seekers; everything we experience is interpreted in relation to everything else that we know.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Trailblazer]

You asked for how Baha'u'llah's behaviour was consistent with what we might expect from a con artist? This would be one example.

Why would this be consistent with a con artist?
Baha'u'llah was referring to God in the following passage, He was not referring to Himself. Only God has the power to ordain anything, only God has sovereignty, and only God is Unrestrained, All-Powerful, the All-Wise.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284