God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[CG Didymus]

There cannot be any proof of that unless we have original writings of the Buddha.

Google is my friend:

Did the Buddha write anything?

The Buddha did not write anything down. The earliest known scriptures were recorded hundreds of years after the Buddha's death. Still, the Buddhavacana (Words of the Buddha) are claimed to be the literal utterances of the Buddha as the Sangha orally maintained them since the Buddha's death.

How can we know what the Buddha taught and how does this ...
The first Buddhist texts were initially passed on orally by Buddhist monastics, but were later written down and composed as manuscripts in various Indo-Aryan languages (such as Pali, Gāndhārī and Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit) and collected into various Buddhist canons.

Buddhist texts - Wikipedia

So why does Abdul Baha say that Buddha taught about God? Just another unprovable claim? What's wrong with the things that Buddhists do say about what Buddha taught? Why do we need to add in the Abrahamic God into it? And throw out anything, like reincarnation, that we don't like?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, absolutely NOT.
They are just examples of different interpretations of the Bible.

I think you should take a look at this thread and my two responses on it:

The Bible Tells Me So

But the Baha'i interpretation is supposedly the true interpretation. So, even that would be revising a wrong interpretation wouldn't it? But then, I don't know what you want to call it, but I'd say that the Baha'is do revise something written in the Bible. The Bible story says Isaac. Baha'u'llah says Ishmael. I'll probably come back on-line later tonight. Talk to you then.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why does Abdul Baha say that Buddha taught about God? Just another unprovable claim? What's wrong with the things that Buddhists do say about what Buddha taught? Why do we need to add in the Abrahamic God into it? And throw out anything, like reincarnation, that we don't like?

It all goes back to the Covenant of Baha'u'llah....

As Baha'is who believe in Baha'u'llah, we believe whatever Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote is true.

No religious claims are provable.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why try and prove it. Let's just say it probably didn't happen... it was just another embellished lie, I mean symbolic/fictional story, that the writers added in.

The Baptism of Jesus
…16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!

It is ALL ion how you interpret the verses. I interpret some of that literally but I do not interpret all of that literally.
I believe that Jesus was baptized and He went up out of the water, but I do not believe that the heavens were literally opened, but I do believe the Spirit of God literally descended like a dove and rested on Him.

I do not believe that a voice from heaven literally said: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"
I believe that is a way that the gospel writer was trying to convey the message that Jesus was the Son of God and God was pleased with Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the Baha'i interpretation is supposedly the true interpretation. So, even that would be revising a wrong interpretation wouldn't it? But then, I don't know what you want to call it, but I'd say that the Baha'is do revise something written in the Bible. The Bible story says Isaac. Baha'u'llah says Ishmael. I'll probably come back on-line later tonight. Talk to you then.

To revise something is to re-examine and make alterations to (written or printed matter). The Baha'is cannot revise the canonized Bible.

I would rather say that the Baha'i interpretation is supposedly the most correct interpretation, and that is based upon this passage:

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were appointed as interpreters through the Covenant of Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, that and progressive revelation. Then having a bunch of laws just like other religions. But, I don't see how those rules are going to work now when they didn't work then.

Logically speaking, you do not see that NOW because it has not happened yet. Only God can see into the future.
Then was then and now is now. This is a new age and people will be different. That is how it will work.

But the basics are great... peace, love, unity, all people are one. But all religions are one? I believe that if there is one true God that all religions should be one. But that's not what it looks like to me.

It does not look like that to you because you do not understand and believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote...
You spend all your time trying to find the smoking gun, but there is no smoking gun, only misunderstandings.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that God spoke to Baha'u'llah through the Holy Spirit.

Not directly? What is the Holy Spirit to Baha'is? And when a Christian says that the Holy Spirit lives in them and communicates the things of God to them do Baha'is think they are mistaken?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, God could not do that because God is not a man who can speak directly to humans.

And why would you think God couldn't? Did he speak to Moses with an audible voice? Did he speak to the prophets like Elijah with an audible voice?

 

[CG Didymus]

Now I have some questions for you:

1. Why should the Baha'is or the Baha'i Faith have all the information about all the religions that preceded it?

Because they claim to be the fulfillment of all of them.

2. Why does it matter to you so much what all those older religions taught?

To see if the Baha'i concept of a progression of religions makes sense. For me, it doesn't. More likely people invented their Gods and their religion.

3. Do you think that their teachings and laws are pertinent to this age?

No, because I think the religious leaders in that culture made those laws up and told the people that their God did. And Baha'i laws I doubt will be successful. People will break them and Baha'i will need enforcers to impose the laws on the people.

4. Do you really think it is possible to reconcile all those religions with the Baha'i Faith?

I believe the Baha'is try to, but they don't know enough or explain enough about those other religions.

5. Why do you think it is necessary to reconcile all those religions with the Baha'i Faith?

If the Baha'i Faith is right. Baha'is should be able to show how all religions came from one God and are a continuation of the same spiritual message with only "social" laws being changed.

6. Do you think you can prove or disprove the Baha'i Faith by looking at all those religions?

To me, things don't add up. So why believe he is the return of every promised one of every religion? And his laws, I don't think will bring a perfect peaceful world. Baha'is still say that the governments of the world should rise up and put down any rebellions. And since we have examples of other religions becoming corrupt and forcing their people into obedience, there is a good chance that the same thing could happen with a Baha'i government.

 

[CG Didymus]

A different interpretation of the resurrection stories, just as many liberal Christians have:

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

“Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

So I'd be wrong in saying that they "revised" their beliefs about the Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

Not directly? What is the Holy Spirit to Baha'is? And when a Christian says that the Holy Spirit lives in them and communicates the things of God to them do Baha'is think they are mistaken?

That is as direct as it gets. That was God speaking through the Holy Spirit at the burning bush talking to Moses, and God spoke to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

As it says below, the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.

Yes, when a Christian says that the Holy Spirit lives in them and communicates the things of God to them,Baha'is think they are mistaken. That is based upon what Abdu'l-Baha wrote.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate,it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror. Some Answered Questions, p. 108

 

[CG Didymus]

But we do not know what the purpose was, so why bother to conjecture?
You either believe it is literally true or not. I would think that by now you should have a position.

Were talking about supposed spiritual truth here. Lots of people are lying or mistaken. Of course not you or your guy.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is as direct as it gets. That was God speaking through the Holy Spirit at the burning bush talking to Moses, and God spoke to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

As it says below, the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.

Yes, when a Christian says that the Holy Spirit lives in them and communicates the things of God to them,Baha'is think they are mistaken. That is based upon what Abdu'l-Baha wrote.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate,it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror. Some Answered Questions, p. 108

So too many words. Just tell me can the Holy Spirit live in "normal" people and communicate to them? Oh, and I took a break. Please tell me you haven't been here all this time still posting to people.

 

[CG Didymus]

It does not look like that to you because you do not understand and believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote...

That's right, I don't believe that all religions are one. And to make them one Baha'i revise, I mean reinterpret, all of them to fit in with Baha'i beliefs.... like no reincarnation. People added it in or misinterpreted something that Krishna said. But there's that other problem, Krishna didn't write it. Same thing with Jesus, the gospels say he rose Abdul Baha' says he didn't, only "spiritually". And Miss Logical, what is more of a powerful spiritual claim? That Jesus died and his spirit rose? Or that his body came to life? If you answered that his body came back to life, you are correct. Everybody's spirit rises. What's so special about that. But go around proclaiming that Jesus rose from the dead and you're going to have people thinking your prophet and your God are amazing. Probably not real... but amazing. Hey, that's enough don't you think. I hope you get off the computer and go take care of your cats.

 

[Trailblazer]

And why would you think God couldn't? Did he speak to Moses with an audible voice? Did he speak to the prophets like Elijah with an audible voice?

I have no idea what they heard or how they heard it. Only they would know that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, if he is for real. Not many don't want peace and unity, but they might not want to live under Baha'u'llah's rule to make it happen.

That is the quandary we choose CG. Does God know what is best for us or not?

If yes, how willing are we to submit. To me it shows the benefit of the Message given by Muhammad. There are many millions that understand what submission means, all they need to do is accept there were more Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So I'd be wrong in saying that they "revised" their beliefs about the Bible?

Yes, I think you would be wrong to say that.
What they did was interpret the Bible differently than other Christians, so they believe differently.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's right, I don't believe that all religions are one. And to make them one Baha'i revise, I mean reinterpret, all of them to fit in with Baha'i beliefs....

It is NOT a Bahai belief that all the religions are one (and the same) so we do not try to make them one.
Clearly, they are not the same because they were revealed in different ages to different people who had different needs. Is grade school the same as college? They are both schools and that is the common denominator, but they are not the same.

Religions are all one in the sense that they were all revealed by the same God and they are all unfolding chapters in the Book of God. After that, they part ways, except for the spiritual teachings which are the same in every age, even if expressed differently.

 

[Trailblazer]

So too many words. Just tell me can the Holy Spirit live in "normal" people and communicate to them? Oh, and I took a break. Please tell me you haven't been here all this time still posting to people.

No, I do not believe that the Holy spirit lives inside of the bodies of anyone, not even the Messengers.

I will tell you that because I have been. I got up late today so I have only been here since I got up, took a shower, fed the cats and outdoor critters, and got my coffee, since about 1 pm. I do not take breaks except to go get my coffee... then it gets cold because I have no time to drink it and my husband takes it and drinks it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, built up prejudices... So, what we need to do to have unity of thought is reject all the false beliefs about God that have developed over the years.

That has been the history of Faith as recorded in the Bible. Why do you think this age would be better, especially that in the Holy Books it talks of this time as being not so good?

and now that we have the "true" answer", we can move on from here knowing that God will never communicate to us directly... God only speaks us through his messengers and Baha'u'llah is the current one...

That is a position, that is possible to take, of course it is up to you to decide how God does communicate.

So we must drop everything we thought we knew about God and listen to him. Only one problem... Is he The True One? The Messiah? The Whatever that was promised from each and every other religion?

Back to the quandary again CG, this is your choice.

If not, is he, God forbid, a false Christ, a false Messiah? How are we going to know for sure? I think we better put him under the spiritual microscope and check him out. Any red flags that we should investigate?

I have found no red flags, I have read, I think, all there is available in English.

I'd say "yes".

Then, that is your choice and what you will do about it, or not do about it.

He's not Jesus. He did not go to Jerusalem and rule on the throne of David.

Of course He is not Jesus, the body is dead and the flesh amounts to nothing. I see Christ set the throne in Elam and moved the throne to the New Jerusalem and that Baha'u'llah still sits on that throne. Of course you are free not to consider that is so, but if you wait for a full literal fulfillment, I see one would wait an eternity and still wait.

And did he do what the promised one of all the other religions say he is supposed to do?

Why would Baha'u'llah do what men say that God must do. God does as God chooses to do and God fulfills prophecy as it was written. It is up to us to consider how it was fulfilled, with no preconceived ideas.

Baha'is say he did. Should I trust them or research it for myself and ask them lots and lots of questions?

I would agree to personal research, ask God for guidance and mediate for an answer. As to asking others, I would offer, to only ask the questions you really need to consider different opinions on, only after you have meditated for an answer and still have a conflict of thought.

Regards Tony