Give me money

[gmelrod]

My girlfriend and I go to diffrent churches. We have each gone to the others service and It seems like whenever one of us switches for a weekend the topic of the sermon/homily is giving. She had the bad luck to come on the day of the yearly Bishop's appeal. His reasoning was that the Catholic Church is a global institution and money given to the Church could have a greater impact then individual giving. There was no real appeal to the bible just "we want to do good things we need money to do it. Please give us money."

When I went to her church on the other hand there wach much made of biblical injunction for giving. The one I remember well enough to look up is as follows.

[FONT=VERDANA, ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1]“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows” (Malachi 3:10).

Now this is the old testament and so for me does not carry the same weight. I see this passage as I do much of judaic law, a way to survive. Don't eat pork because of tricinosis (sp?). Store away ten percent and you will not starve.

I see much church giving as a form of natural selection. Churches need money to do their ministry. Churches who ask for money tend to get it. The more money you have the bigger your ministry can be. The bigger your ministry the more members you get. The more members the more money. ect ect. The end result of this is the megachurches we see poping up (Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, et al). But on the other hand churches without money seem to go under pretty quick.

In the end I think it is what is done with the money that matters the most. But issues like that have to be delt with on a case by case basis.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[gingernater]

When I went to her church on the other hand there wach much made of biblical injunction for giving. The one I remember well enough to look up is as follows.

[FONT=VERDANA, ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1]“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows” (Malachi 3:10).[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=-1][FONT=VERDANA, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Now this is the old testament and so for me does not carry the same weight. I see this passage as I do much of judaic law, a way to survive. Don't eat pork because of tricinosis (sp?). Store away ten percent and you will not starve.[/FONT][/SIZE]


I have found that this passage has no relavince in 21st centuary church. It was for the jews at the time because they wearnt giving their 10% and people were going to starve, so i agree. the jews wearnt obeying the law at the time and god had to remind them how good his blessings are.

 

[gmelrod]

It has been my experience that many times social agenda in churches uses the Old Testement for scriptual justification. My responce is always. "How does that pork chop taste?" If you get to use some don't you have to use all?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They are greedy?
There was even a South Park episode about this.

I already quoted Leper Messiah once on a similiar thread, and a few others also quoted it, even pages after I originally did. I'll just link it this time to save room.
http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/metallica/masterofpuppets.html#6

 

[gingernater]

Not all churches are greedy. some just misread and place out of context some scripture.

 

[Runlikethewind]

thanks all, but really, does anyone know the bible well enough to tell where and when Jesus says give money. I mean i have heard it all in the church i have attented a few times, but find it hard to believe He was talking about money. Also, since i find it bothersome does anyone have good advice on choosing a church? thanks

Matt 17: 24-27
Jesus has Peter pay the temple tax for both of them from a coin found in a fishes mouth. Jesus seems to imply that 'subjects should be exempt from tax' but in the end he does pay the temple.

Mark 12:41-44, Luke 21:1-4
Jesus observes people giving money to the temple treasury. He notes that many gave great sums of monies. A widow came along and gave a very small sum. Jesus said "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

If Jesus thought it wrong to give money to the temple (the church) I don't think He would have paid the tax himself or praised the widow for giving all that she had to the temple. In fact it seems like Jesus is saying give until it hurts. Like the girl in the OP if Jesus where there he would have been most proud of her had she given the dollar and the quarter. And Hebrew scripture is full of rules and regulations on how the priests are to be treated and provided for by the people that is why things like the temple tax where in place, God wanted his ministers to be provided for. Now of course some abuse this as it has been said in other posts already. The vast majority of ministers are more humble and modest in their lifestyles I would say.

maybe you should get a catholic gig

Just make sure it's not a religious order that takes a vow of poverty or anything that would defeat the purpose.

I really don't think that Catholic ministers are rolling in cash. All the ones I have ever known have be relatively poor, except for those who where military chaplains but that is a government paycheck and that goes to all chaplains regardless of faith.

 

[gmelrod]

I think in the end we should give because we want to, not because we have to. If you believe in the work your church is doing then help them. If you have a problem with them close the checkbook.

"I really don't think that Catholic ministers are rolling in cash. All the ones I have ever known have be relatively poor,"

I grew up in Catholic politics. it varies greatly from parish to parish. One church in my town (Holy Cross) is called Holy Cash. It is on the beach and all the rich Catholics in town go there.

 

[Runlikethewind]

It has been my experience that many times social agenda in churches uses the Old Testement for scriptual justification. My responce is always. "How does that pork chop taste?" If you get to use some don't you have to use all?

Not the best reply considering Jesus made all foods clean in Mark 7:19. So no if you use some you don't have to use all. Jesus did not come to destroy the old law but to fulfill it. Interpreting the Old Testament in light of Jesus, as Christians should, ought to allows one to see what parts of the OT are still relevant. In my opinion the OT is still relevant in many ways for Christians because it is the same God who revealed it as is revealed in the person of Jesus. But the old must be interpreted in light of the new.

 

[gingernater]

Matt 17: 24-27
Jesus has Peter pay the temple tax for both of them from a coin found in a fishes mouth. Jesus seems to imply that 'subjects should be exempt from tax' but in the end he does pay the temple.

Mark 12:41-44, Luke 21:1-4
Jesus observes people giving money to the temple treasury. He notes that many gave great sums of monies. A widow came along and gave a very small sum. Jesus said "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

If Jesus thought it wrong to give money to the temple (the church) I don't think He would have paid the tax himself or praised the widow for giving all that she had to the temple. In fact it seems like Jesus is saying give until it hurts. Like the girl in the OP if Jesus where there he would have been most proud of her had she given the dollar and the quarter. And Hebrew scripture is full of rules and regulations on how the priests are to be treated and provided for by the people that is why things like the temple tax where in place, God wanted his ministers to be provided for. Now of course some abuse this as it has been said in other posts already. The vast majority of ministers are more humble and modest in their lifestyles I would say.



Just make sure it's not a religious order that takes a vow of poverty or anything that would defeat the purpose.

I really don't think that Catholic ministers are rolling in cash. All the ones I have ever known have be relatively poor, except for those who where military chaplains but that is a government paycheck and that goes to all chaplains regardless of faith.

Jesus only paid the tax so that he wouldnt upset anyone. he wasnt keen on doing it, but new that in order to keep the peace at that moment and time then he would have to to of paid it. And god wants us to give out of obediance to him. If he tells us what to give then we should give it no matter the cost, for the blessing after will be beater for you did it out of obediance. But make sure it is for god and not someone saying god wont bless you if you dont give, or give and god will bless you as i have heared some say before

 

[gingernater]

Matt 17: 24-27
Jesus has Peter pay the temple tax for both of them from a coin found in a fishes mouth. Jesus seems to imply that 'subjects should be exempt from tax' but in the end he does pay the temple.

Mark 12:41-44, Luke 21:1-4
Jesus observes people giving money to the temple treasury. He notes that many gave great sums of monies. A widow came along and gave a very small sum. Jesus said "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

If Jesus thought it wrong to give money to the temple (the church) I don't think He would have paid the tax himself or praised the widow for giving all that she had to the temple. In fact it seems like Jesus is saying give until it hurts. Like the girl in the OP if Jesus where there he would have been most proud of her had she given the dollar and the quarter. And Hebrew scripture is full of rules and regulations on how the priests are to be treated and provided for by the people that is why things like the temple tax where in place, God wanted his ministers to be provided for. Now of course some abuse this as it has been said in other posts already. The vast majority of ministers are more humble and modest in their lifestyles I would say.



Just make sure it's not a religious order that takes a vow of poverty or anything that would defeat the purpose.

I really don't think that Catholic ministers are rolling in cash. All the ones I have ever known have be relatively poor, except for those who where military chaplains but that is a government paycheck and that goes to all chaplains regardless of faith.

Jesus only paid the tax so that he wouldnt upset anyone. he wasnt keen on doing it, but new that in order to keep the peace at that moment and time then he would have to to of paid it. And god wants us to give out of obediance to him. If he tells us what to give then we should give it no matter the cost, for the blessing after will be beater for you did it out of obediance. But make sure it is for god and not someone saying god wont bless you if you dont give, or give and god will bless you as i have heared some say before

 

[lilithu]

Well how insulting is that little jab? We went through this before here on RF.

Ain't that the truth.

Look, if you don't want to give money, then don't give. Period.

Leave the rest of us alone. And fer pete's sake, cut it out with the ridiculous generalizations against clergy. It's ugly when it's done against members of any ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or political party, and it's ugly when it's done against members of any profession.

 

[gingernater]

Not the best reply considering Jesus made all foods clean in Mark 7:19. So no if you use some you don't have to use all. Jesus did not come to destroy the old law but to fulfill it. Interpreting the Old Testament in light of Jesus, as Christians should, ought to allows one to see what parts of the OT are still relevant. In my opinion the OT is still relevant in many ways for Christians because it is the same God who revealed it as is revealed in the person of Jesus. But the old must be interpreted in light of the new.

True. but things now days when people do this they take things out of context for where 21st centuray and they were living in a time long ago.

For example fire. modern day we think of fire as something that burns.
jewish thinking of fire was light. As long as it still keep the hebrew meaning then i agree and the old still is ralvint and god teaches us alot out of it.

 

[gnomon]

Alright why do churches feel its necessary to preach AT LENGTH about giving money. We all know that pastors, ministers, etc. live off of what the church gets from the people, and they also help the less fortunate, so why not have your ushers by the doors with their baskets?? I sat in church and listened to this pastor preach for 15 min. about how to be a "cheerful" giver. He used the example of a little girl who had a dollar and a quarter in her pocket, the pastor said , God wants cheerful givers, so she asks her mom, and her mom let her decide. Well, she said I will be more cheerful if I keep my dollar and give my quarter. Then he says, "We dont' want you to do that" ugggg.... seems like such a twisting of God's word. I got from that, if you're not cheerful in giving then don't give at all.
Did people give Jesus money in God's name?? Did he ask for it, or did people just give without him having to qoute his father on why they needed to?:angel2:

If a person doesn't want to give then don't. Unfortunately, facilities do not run by prayer and attendance alone.

Yes, I'm an atheist but I know what it is like to attend groups that must rely on donations to maintain the common facility in which they wish to gather. People must also account for inflation. It is easy for people to just show up but more is required. I doubt the preacher's house could accomodate the congregation. But if it did, then questioning why would be in order.

 

[Bishka]

If a person doesn't want to give then don't. Unfortunately, facilities do not run by prayer and attendance alone.
.

Excellent point!

In a similar vein, universities, government buildings, clubhouses, don't run on attendance alone, why ask if a Church would? It costs money to upkeep and keep things nice. (Not directed at you gnomon, but directed at author of OP)

~Becky

 

[cardero]

Due to conversions, disinterest or lack of time, many people are not able to fill some churches to full capacity anymore. No one needs to exchange money to learn about GOD or have a REALationship with Him. Spirituality and kindness shouldn’t cost anything. People don’t need clubhouses or structured buildings to organize charities or to give back to the community. Jesus taught how to heal the sick, feed the multitudes and to teach freely. Instead of everyone taking pride in who has the most temples or the tallest steeples or the most extravagant halls, we should be putting that money towards feeding the 18,000 people that die from hunger everyday and helping people who cannot afford medication or health supplies and give towards research to eliminate disease. We should put the money towards education and helping victims of crime and disaster (not just the victims that represent your fatih but everyone who is incurring the same fate and suffering). The truth is the world is not in the best of shape and I would rather see the money go for Truth rather than faith. Why are we spending billions upon billioins of dollars to build places so that we can tell the faithful to wait until God arrives to solve the problems, when we already have the capability and resources to carry out the solutions ourselves, today?

 

[Runlikethewind]

Matt 17: 24-27 Mark 12:41-44, Luke 21:1-4

The passages I presented in my last post merely show several occasions where Jesus seems to approve of giving money to the church in regards to sblack77's desire to know of a place in the Bible where Jesus approved of doing so.

Jesus only paid the tax so that he wouldnt upset anyone. he wasnt keen on doing it, but new that in order to keep the peace at that moment and time then he would have to to of paid it....... But make sure it is for god and not someone saying god wont bless you if you dont give, or give and god will bless you as i have heared some say before

So these passages still hold true for giving to the church. There are times when it is appropriate to give in light of Jesus' actions in Matt 17, even if one is not keen on the idea of someones preaching about blessings from God for giving, and even if they are doing it only to keep the peace.

And god wants us to give out of obediance to him. If he tells us what to give then we should give it no matter the cost, for the blessing after will be beater for you did it out of obediance.

But of course the ideal is to give out of your heart, to give because you want to, that means more. And that is not necessarily out of obedience but out of Love for God. That is where the story of the widow seems to be appropriate, she gave all that she had and Jesus praised her for it. In the end I tend to agree with lilithu,

Look, if you don't want to give money, then don't give. Period.

 

[ker crypter]

Excellent point!

In a similar vein, universities, government buildings, clubhouses, don't run on attendance alone, why ask if a Church would? It costs money to upkeep and keep things nice. (Not directed at you gnomon, but directed at author of OP)

~Becky

l think if a person attends a church, and like becky says...it cost money to keep it nice. Why wouldnt you want to donate money or even time to keep it that way. l remember when l was young, me and my friends had a tree fort and we would all pool a little money to fix it up. lf something makes you happy, go for it. Why do people who have no stake in others affairs even care.lf you dont want to give, dont give...

 

[sblack77]

Which churches are you talking about? Mine certainly does not pay any of leaders. We are known as lay preisthood (non-paid). Are you talking about Christinaity as a whole or just a few select ones?

i am only speaking of the one I have recently attended. My husband is Catholic, and I never heard in a sermon there about how God wanted our money, but that they needed more for the years dues to the diocese (sp?) etc. That was not bothersome, however, Cathecism rules were. I just wanted to learn the bible, not learn religious rules first.

yes this church is Christian, nondenominational. They have picked out certain scriptures from the bible and preached at lenght about money, now they are not in debt and the pastors do not live lavishly. The building is paid for, and they use a lot for less fortunate. I do not mind giving money, but, it is bothersome that they use the bible to be pushy. It feels like this to me when I listen to a fifteen minute sermon on money.
I just wish they had a different way of going about it, that's why I am asking about scripture here, I am just beginning in reading the bible.

I have read Mark, and remember the poor widow part. I am just not getting that you need to give all you have(after you are fed, etc). Perhaps that is my stubbornness

 

[ker crypter]

i am only speaking of the one I have recently attended. My husband is Catholic, and I never heard in a sermon there about how God wanted our money, but that they needed more for the years dues to the diocese (sp?) etc. That was not bothersome, however, Cathecism rules were. I just wanted to learn the bible, not learn religious rules first.

yes this church is Christian, nondenominational. They have picked out certain scriptures from the bible and preached at lenght about money, now they are not in debt and the pastors do not live lavishly. The building is paid for, and they use a lot for less fortunate. I do not mind giving money, but, it is bothersome that they use the bible to be pushy. It feels like this to me when I listen to a fifteen minute sermon on money.
I just wish they had a different way of going about it, that's why I am asking about scripture here, I am just beginning in reading the bible.

I have read Mark, and remember the poor widow part. I am just not getting that you need to give all you have(after you are fed, etc). Perhaps that is my stubbornness

youre not happy with your church ssblack77. may it be possible for you to change churches or maybe just take time by yourself reading the bible? l know you can learn alot about scriptures right here on RF.

 

[lilithu]

There are two issues here:

1. As several people have said, it costs money to keep a church running. A church is an organization, with a physical building that has to pay things like the electricity and water bills, and it has to pay its staff, not just the ministers but also office staff and custodial staff. I for one am happy to chip in to make sure that they get a decent wage.

2. There is the spirituality of generosity. Jesus DID talk several times about giving. The parable that comes to mind is when he points out to his disciples a woman who donates only a few small coins. They don't amount to much, but to her they were all she had, and he pointed out that God counted that as more than the rich person who gave much more monetarily, but at no financial distress to himself.

Giving isn't just about giving what you don't need. It's about stretching yourself until it feels uncomfortable. Just a little. No one is asking anyone to starve, but the spirituality of generosity is about truly sharing.

Again, if you don't want to, fine. But quit complaining when it's talked about in a church. It's part of the religion. And if you want to give but don't trust the church for some reason, then give elsewhere to someone you do trust. The point is to give of oneself.