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Ghostaka and YmirGF: The 'Sweet' Discussion

Ghostaka

Active Member
As you know people... this is a one on one so view from a safe distance :).

I welcome my friend YmirGF that I still need to get to know a little better and he the same for me.

"Aiight" Paul umm.. Shall I go first?!

Do you have any specific reason not to believe in God, or do you have a concept of God that you may want to let me know about? :D
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
As you know people... this is a one on one so view from a safe distance .
Indeed. I proposed the One on One format so we would not have other folks littering the thread. My hope is that we can have a great discussion on a wide range of topics. The point is, this is NOT a debate, even though this is technically in a debate section. Circle_One indicated that there should not be any problem using this area for our purposes.

I welcome my friend YmirGF that I still need to get to know a little better and he the same for me.
Greetings Ghostaka, thanks for your welcome and accepting my invitation. I thought I would start by saying that the main reason I chose you to discuss things with is because unlike many Muslim posters you seem to have a firm grasp of English. Likewise, you have a good sense of humor and seem eminently capable of expressing your thoughts in a clear and productive manner. I will endeavor to do likewise.

Do you have any specific reason not to believe in God, or do you have a concept of God that you may want to let me know about?
This is really two questions so let's take each one separately. The short answer to both, that is not terribly informative, is "Yes and yes." That might sound like a contradiction, lol, but there is a point to putting it this way.

The reason I reject the various god concepts outlined in ALL religions of the human animal is because I do not perceive those god concepts are covering the subject matter adequately. Many god concepts are barely worth the term "god" in my humble opinion due to their reliance on anthropomorphic descriptions. The LDS version of god as having a physical body is a perfect example. (Sorry, my LDS friends, but I feel I should be honest.)

I can sum up my vision of what other human animals refer to as "god" in five small words. "God is All That Is." That might sound fairly basic to the drive-by reader, but if you think about the statement it has some rather massive and instructive ramifications.

To clarify, the reason I reject the religious versions of "god" is because I do not want to give people the impression that I am supportive of their particular limited view of what I perceive "god" to be. I am not actually saying that I don't believe "god" exists. What I am saying is that the likelihood of the garden variety human animal's god concept is highly improbable, in my opinion, which is based on my own direct experience.

*runs off to start sanding a piece of furniture, then prepare to pour some concrete on another project, all the while being on the lookout for passing wild deer*
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
Greetings Ghostaka, thanks for your welcome and accepting my invitation. I thought I would start by saying that the main reason I chose you to discuss things with is because unlike many Muslim posters you seem to have a firm grasp of English. Likewise, you have a good sense of humor and seem eminently capable of expressing your thoughts in a clear and productive manner. I will endeavor to do likewise.
Why thanks for the kind words ;) - Although I could add that you should take it easy on my brothers and sisters :)!
The reason I reject the various god concepts outlined in ALL religions of the human animal is because I do not perceive those god concepts are covering the subject matter adequately. Many god concepts are barely worth the term "god" in my humble opinion due to their reliance on anthropomorphic descriptions. The LDS version of god as having a physical body is a perfect example. (Sorry, my LDS friends, but I feel I should be honest.)
Hey, fair enough.
I can sum up my vision of what other human animals refer to as "god" in five small words. "God is All That Is." That might sound fairly basic to the drive-by reader, but if you think about the statement it has some rather massive and instructive ramifications.

To clarify, the reason I reject the religious versions of "god" is because I do not want to give people the impression that I am supportive of their particular limited view of what I perceive "god" to be. I am not actually saying that I don't believe "god" exists. What I am saying is that the likelihood of the garden variety human animal's god concept is highly improbable, in my opinion, which is based on my own direct experience.
Thanks for the summary Paul. You seem rather Agnostic with a hint of Atheism when it comes to depictions of god in religion. Interestingly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but; I found that your concept of God being that He is unique/not like anything else fits in a Chapter of the Qur'an (funnily enough :)).

Chapter 112: The Refining/Purity <<<<< Oh would you look at that ;)...

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none (co-equal or) comparable unto Him.

My thoughts are based on the assumption that in your concept of God, you believe that He is Alone/One. If we look closely at this small Chapter, the last line I believe is the deal breaker. By that, I mean, the moment you find something on Earth that you can compare God to, that thing is not God's attribute. e.g. if there is a claim that says "god has two eyes, or six feet or basically anything that we can imagine, then that description is not of God. In short, God does not have a physical appearance/image/shape in Islam. So like "God is All That Is" it has some huge ramifications as well! (... that I will let you know of in due time)

Paul, do you see any problems so far? What do you think?
*runs off to start sanding a piece of furniture, then prepare to pour some concrete on another project, all the while being on the lookout for passing wild deer*
If I wouldn't be lying... I would say "Me too!":)

(p.s. Hope we don't butt-heads this soon! :facepalm:)

Peace be upon you.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Although I could add that you should take it easy on my brothers and sisters
I hear you, Ghostaka. Likewise when your brothers and sisters stop painting rather large Bull's Eyes on their foreheads, I might learn to resist taking pot shots at said targets. Admittedly though, it is akin to shooting fish in a barrel. I think that part of the problem is that Muslims tend to take themselves far too seriously and are horrified and deeply insulted when others don't take them seriously or consider their comments to be akin to intellectual bankruptcy.

You seem rather Agnostic with a hint of Atheism when it comes to depictions of god in religion.
I am extremely wary of attaching any labels hence my provisional use of the term atheist. Likewise, there are aspects of the Agnostic label that do fit but it isn't a label that I would firmly apply. The only label I am somewhat at ease with is "Disintegrated Neognostic" with a slight "Jungian" twist. In saying that I should point out that I eschew Gnosticism per se, but am an adherent to the concept of gnosis.

Interestingly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but; I found that your concept of God being that He is unique/not like anything else fits in a Chapter of the Qur'an (funnily enough).
What are the chances that you would think that, eh? Hehe. But Ghostaka - I didn't say that. All I said was that "God is All That Is". Quite naturally, you are interpreting those five words to fit your current understanding. This is expected and so comes as no surprise.

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none (co-equal or) comparable unto Him.

My thoughts are based on the assumption that in your concept of God, you believe that He is Alone/One. If we look closely at this small Chapter, the last line I believe is the deal breaker. By that, I mean, the moment you find something on Earth that you can compare God to, that thing is not God's attribute. e.g. if there is a claim that says "god has two eyes, or six feet or basically anything that we can imagine, then that description is not of God. In short, God does not have a physical appearance/image/shape in Islam. So like "God is All That Is" it has some huge ramifications as well! (... that I will let you know of in due time)
Paul, do you see any problems so far? What do you think?
You will get no argument from me regarding the physical description aspect. I think we do both agree on that, however saying &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; is not quite the same as saying &#8220;God is Alone/One&#8221; as the latter implies a singular being. The simple fact is that when I say that &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; I mean it both literally, metaphorically and in several other senses, one of which is a multidimensional sense. Do you mean &#8220;He is Alone/One&#8221; in the same senses as I am using?
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
What are the chances that you would think that, eh? Hehe. But Ghostaka - I didn't say that. All I said was that "God is All That Is". Quite naturally, you are interpreting those five words to fit your current understanding. This is expected and so comes as no surprise.
Well considering that my current understanding of "God is All That Is" was not in fact correct in the sense used by yourself, I agree. I'mma ask next time you present a special term ;).
You will get no argument from me regarding the physical description aspect. I think we do both agree on that, however saying &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; is not quite the same as saying &#8220;God is Alone/One&#8221; as the latter implies a singular being. The simple fact is that when I say that &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; I mean it both literally, metaphorically and in several other senses, one of which is a multidimensional sense.
Gotcha ya' meaning.
Do you mean &#8220;He is Alone/One&#8221; in the same senses as I am using?
'fraid not. May I ask, is there a particular reason that led you to the conclusion(?) of "God is All That Is"?

p.s. is that army of yours running low on peace?! If you need any, at all, just drop in a request :rainbow1:. On another inquisitive (and a tad bit more serious) note, have you happened to see The Arrival series (on Youtube perhaps)?

Peace be upon you.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well considering that my current understanding of "God is All That Is" was not in fact correct in the sense used by yourself, I agree. I'mma ask next time you present a special term ;).Gotcha ya' meaning.'fraid not. May I ask, is there a particular reason that led you to the conclusion(?) of "God is All That Is"?
Whew. I guess I just wanted to keep things as clear as possible. There isn't much point in offering up a relatively new vision of "god" if I am going to dress it up in ill-fitting clothing from the get go. I do thank you for both your patience and your indulgence. If you are not in any hurry I'd like to explore several ideas over the next few days and hopefully weeks. As I said, I will endeavor to be both diplomatic and as engaging as possible. If at any time you have a question, just say so. You can bet your booties that I won't hesitate to.

To be fair, and to level the playing field, although I am well read in regards to Islam, I am sure you could stump me fairly easily with a given expression. It is at those times that I will ask you for clarification. So, the main thing I am expecting is to learn some of the sublter aspects of Islam from you that your brothers and sisters may not be able to express quite so easily in English. That might sound like a tall order but I am sure you will do just fine.

For balance, why don't you outline the idea, as given previously, that "He is Alone/One". That might be very helpful. If you can do that I will be happy to briefly explain how I arrived at "God is All That Is".

p.s. is that army of yours running low on peace?! If you need any, at all, just drop in a request :rainbow1:. On another inquisitive (and a tad bit more serious) note, have you happened to see The Arrival series (on Youtube perhaps)?

Peace be upon you.
I know I was rather rude to you on this before, but I thank you for the sentiment. In truth, one can never have too much peace and tranquility. In turn, I give you whatever blessings are mine to give.

Hope to hear from you soon.

PS - I'm going to check out "The Arrival" right now... well, after I wash my face, lol.
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
For balance, why don't you outline the idea, as given previously, that "He is Alone/One". That might be very helpful. If you can do that I will be happy to briefly explain how I arrived at "God is All That Is".
Hey why not!
  • God is One and Only. He is not a part of Trinity. There is no association with Him.
  • He is The Creator of the Universe.
  • He does not Beget, nor is He Begotten. He has no son, nor is He the son of anyone.
  • He does not incarnate.
  • He has no beginning and no end. He is Eternal, Absolute and Everlasting.
  • He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, Most Forgiving and Most Loving.
  • He is Most Just. Does not punish innocents to redeem the guilty.
  • He is invisible but Omnipresent.
  • He is the Cherisher and Sustainer.
  • He has no limitation of ability.
  • He does not get tired and does not need rest or sleep.
  • He is the All-knowing. He is not ignorant of the future and does not regret.
  • He is the only Savior.
  • He is the Most Unique Pure Monotheistic God, ALLAH. There is nothing in the heavens and earth that resembles Him. If one imagines of anything, even to compare with God, that is not God. He shares His absolute attributes with no one in the universe. The only unforgivable sin is to associate any one with God's absolute attributes.
Wow, just wanted to use one of these spoiler thingies since I was getting quite curious about that SHOW/HIDE icon... glaring at me... like some... some...:).
I know I was rather rude to you on this before, but I thank you for the sentiment. In truth, one can never have too much peace and tranquility. In turn, I give you whatever blessings are mine to give.
Well peace be upon you then!
PS - I'm going to check out "The Arrival" right now... well, after I was my face, lol.
Oh thanks. Just a 4-1-1 since some episodes of the series are being removed/muted left and right; I suggest you use this link. It may seem rather amateur at first but if you have time between hedge trimming, cement pouring and deer-dodging; thereby surviving past the first few episodes, you'd be surprised at your findings :D.

Peace be upon you (once again).
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
May I ask, is there a particular reason that led you to the conclusion(?) of "God is All That Is"?
No one wonder I left this one for a day, lol, as now I am sitting here trying to figure out how to word this without sounding too crazy.

One extension of the statement, &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; is, &#8220;Nothing, not even nothingness, can exist outside of the totality of what god is. Everything is a part of what god is. When I say everything, I mean, quite literally, everything.&#8221; But that is not what you asked me, now, is it. What led me to this understanding? That is easily asked but not so easy to explain. If I wanted to do the ultimate &#8220;copout&#8221; I could say that it was originally a revelation.

Four days after my 18th birthday, I began to have experiences that quickly altered my viewpoints of life, death, reality, self, god, OBE's and time. There are also a host of other issues, but these are the first things that I covered and they were covered simultaneously due to a quirk of consciousness and a peculiarity I discovered about cognition and time. This is when I first began to directly understand, through my experience, the meaning behind the word &#8220;multidimensional&#8221;.

To be perfectly, clear these early experiences cannot be adequately explained on RF due to the stringent rules that are in place. Oddly, I support those rules on this particular issue as I have learned that this kind of experimentation is not suitable for the general public.

The information that I received during this period was so extensive, so persuasive and of such high quality that one could get the impression that I had a Guardian Angel. Had I been of a religious nature I may well have interpreted my experience in that light, however, I was an avowed atheist and very much a child of the 20th century and all that that entails. To say I was surprised is putting it mildly.

Shortly after these experiences began, one rainy afternoon I was seized by inspiration. I had been sitting watching and listening to the rain when everything just clicked. For about an hour I wrote out a steady stream of data. Each sentence was there for the taking and all I had to do was let my pen spell them out, as the realization was so crystal clear and complete. I also experienced a distinct, palpable heightened sense of awareness and this was not due to ingesting anything out of the ordinary. It just happened somewhat spontaneously.

When I was done, I sat, somewhat dizzy and thoroughly spent. I had a four page essay titled, &#8220;The Interrelation of all events.&#8221; This was not automatic writing, as I was fully conscious of the entire process, but rather, I was describing a synergistic symmetry that I had never sensed prior to that.

And if you have noticed, I still haven&#8217;t answered your question, lol. (I should seriously consider going into politics.) :facepalm:

OK&#8230; here is your answer.

The realization that &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; directly followed several direct experiences of a state of consciousness described by many as &#8220;Oneness&#8221; and "Cosmic Consciousness". Herein lays the difficulty in understanding what I am raving about. If a human animal has not had this experience, first hand, there isn&#8217;t the slightest possibility that they will fully understand what I am saying. That being said, there are definitely degrees to the experience. All will certainly capture the attention of the observer, but some will quite likely knock their socks off where others will be little more than a heightened awareness and usually quite brief.

The &#8220;lesser&#8221; type of experience could conceivably be forgotten, ignored or considered to be a product of one&#8217;s imagination. The &#8220;greater&#8221; types of experience will be quite literally life changing. The individual will not be the same after the experience as they were prior to the experience. It is not likely that anyone could forget the &#8220;greater&#8221; experience although they may ignore it and possibly consider they may have mental health issues.

In this context, I have had hundreds of the &#8220;greater&#8221; experiences and daily experiences of the &#8220;lesser&#8221; experience. So, in closing, your answer is based on my first hand observations which lead me to conclude that all realities exists within God and that nothing is ever outside of God. I could be wrong, but that's the best I can tell you at this juncture in time.

I truly wish that I could have said that with far less words, but conciseness is not one of my greatest abilities.

There is a VERY important difference between my view and that of others. I am completely aware of the possibility that I could be quite wrong. I never try to pretend that I, alone, am right. This is &#8220;just&#8221; the way I view things and have little interest in getting people to believe what I am saying. My overall point is to simply get people thinking of possibilities.
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
No one wonder I left this one for a day, lol, as now I am sitting here trying to figure out how to word this without sounding too crazy.
Lol, getting really busy really fast, coupled with my tendency to procrastinate made me leave this one for &#8216;a while&#8217;! And now I&#8217;m sitting here trying to understand your conveyance (Oh &#8216;twas the w-e-e-k-e-n-d as well; a while ago :facepalm:)
One extension of the statement, &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; is, &#8220;Nothing, not even nothingness, can exist outside of the totality of what god is. Everything is a part of what god is. When I say everything, I mean, quite literally, everything.&#8221; But that is not what you asked me, now, is it. What led me to this understanding? That is easily asked but not so easy to explain. If I wanted to do the ultimate &#8220;copout&#8221; I could say that it was originally a revelation.
Ah quite interesting! Not trying to do a psych-analysis here: Does the extension of the statement mean that everything is equal to God? You see I&#8217;m trying to understand whether you feel it is necessary to differentiate (or not) the Creator from creation.
Four days after my 18th birthday, I began to have experiences that quickly altered my viewpoints of life, death, reality, self, god, OBE's and time. There are also a host of other issues, but these are the first things that I covered and they were covered simultaneously due to a quirk of consciousness and a peculiarity I discovered about cognition and time. This is when I first began to directly understand, through my experience, the meaning behind the word &#8220;multidimensional&#8221;.
I don&#8217;t think I am foreign to multidimensional(-ism?) my good friend. As I&#8217;m sure you are aware, we Muslims believe that Jinn (beings that had free-will first) are on another dimension. The ones that obey God, do not materialize/present themselves to us humans. However the bad ones&#8230; (The Arrivals explains it so much better!!) And I&#8217;m sure you didn&#8217;t mean multidimensional in this sense :facepalm:.

To be perfectly, clear these early experiences cannot be adequately explained on RF due to the stringent rules that are in place. Oddly, I support those rules on this particular issue as I have learned that this kind of experimentation is not suitable for the general public.

The information that I received during this period was so extensive, so persuasive and of such high quality that one could get the impression that I had a Guardian Angel. Had I been of a religious nature I may well have interpreted my experience in that light, however, I was an avowed atheist and very much a child of the 20th century and all that that entails. To say I was surprised is putting it mildly. The avowed atheist part worries me lol, since interpretation was at stake as you&#8217;ve noted. If you&#8217;ve watched the Arrivals, I would think you&#8217;d be able to reexamine that experience as not from an angel but&#8230; I&#8217;m just thinking of possibilities here.
Shortly after these experiences began, one rainy afternoon I was seized by inspiration. I had been sitting watching and listening to the rain when everything just clicked. For about an hour I wrote out a steady stream of data. Each sentence was there for the taking and all I had to do was let my pen spell them out, as the realization was so crystal clear and complete. I also experienced a distinct, palpable heightened sense of awareness and this was not due to ingesting anything out of the ordinary. It just happened somewhat spontaneously.
I got those when I was in a special mood with mountains of English homework as well! I joke. [DISREGARD ALL PATRONIZING TONES EMANATING FROM MY COMMENTS PLEASE] Paul, was this stream of data about the universe or its origins (or something that you cannot describe on RF)?

When I was done, I sat, somewhat dizzy and thoroughly spent. I had a four page essay titled, &#8220;The Interrelation of all events.&#8221; This was not automatic writing, as I was fully conscious of the entire process, but rather, I was describing a synergistic symmetry that I had never sensed prior to that.

And if you have noticed, I still haven&#8217;t answered your question, lol. (I should seriously consider going into politics.) :facepalm:
A suggestion not so foreign to my ITGS teacher back in the day.

OK&#8230; here is your answer.

The realization that &#8220;God is All That Is&#8221; directly followed several direct experiences of a state of consciousness described by many as &#8220;Oneness&#8221; and "Cosmic Consciousness". Herein lays the difficulty in understanding what I am raving about. If a human animal has not had this experience, first hand, there isn&#8217;t the slightest possibility that they will fully understand what I am saying. That being said, there are definitely degrees to the experience. All will certainly capture the attention of the observer, but some will quite likely knock their socks off where others will be little more than a heightened awareness and usually quite brief.
I agree. As for the degrees to the experience, I would say that I&#8217;ve had them myself; when I understand something I read in the Qur&#8217;an or realize that God is watching me. Okay I doubt I related to the experience in question with a lot of clarity, hope you&#8217;ll understand me a little at least.

The &#8220;lesser&#8221; type of experience could conceivably be forgotten, ignored or considered to be a product of one&#8217;s imagination. The &#8220;greater&#8221; types of experience will be quite literally life changing. The individual will not be the same after the experience as they were prior to the experience. It is not likely that anyone could forget the &#8220;greater&#8221; experience although they may ignore it and possibly consider they may have mental health issues.
These greater experiences I would term, from God. But I would associate them with a person that gets the sudden urge to look for their Creator i.e. rifling through religions of the world in search for some answers to why they exist.

Thenceforth were your hearts hardened: They became like a rock and even worse in hardness. For among rocks there are some from which rivers gush forth; others there are which when split asunder send forth water; and others which sink for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
{The Holy Qur&#8217;an Al-Baqara : 74}
In this context, I have had hundreds of the &#8220;greater&#8221; experiences and daily experiences of the &#8220;lesser&#8221; experience. So, in closing, your answer is based on my first hand observations which lead me to conclude that all realities exists within God and that nothing is ever outside of God. I could be wrong, but that's the best I can tell you at this juncture in time.
By &#8220;within God&#8221;, do you mean in awareness or capability? As you pointed out earlier, I am relating some &#8216;stuffs&#8217;, naturally (or something similar to this effect).
I truly wish that I could have said that with far less words, but conciseness is not one of my greatest abilities.
I appreciate the effort ma&#8217; friend Paul.
There is a VERY important difference between my view and that of others. I am completely aware of the possibility that I could be quite wrong. I never try to pretend that I, alone, am right. This is &#8220;just&#8221; the way I view things and have little interest in getting people to believe what I am saying. My overall point is to simply get people thinking of possibilities.
I respect that, and believe that everyone has the right to think of "possibilities". But time 'does' run out. Whether it be our lifespan or the Earth's :D. In my opinion, if you use open-minded judgment and compare the faiths of this world, you would eventually arrive at one that (I&#8217;ll say) seems to be the right one; which is only achieved through guidance from the One and Only.

Ah Paul, I still, don't understand how of all (shall I term) "athiests" on RF, you can believe that prophets were not sent by God, given your experience. I mean I would equate revelations sent to prophets as being &#8216;enormous experiences&#8217;; that if true, would show no signs of attempted fame and fortune.Which I think matches those of Mose, Jesus and Muhammed (PBUT)... but that&#8217;s just me.

I think I may have missed a point somewhere, &#8216;cause I&#8217;m trying to finish this as soon as possible so as not to keep you waiting any longer :).

Peace be upon you.
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
Ah quite interesting! Not trying to do a psych-analysis here: Does the extension of the statement mean that everything is equal to God? You see I&#8217;m trying to understand whether you feel it is necessary to differentiate (or not) the Creator from creation.
Today this comment seems incompatible with "God Is All That Is". Your input would be appreciated. I think I still have not grasped this concept (and hesitantly think I may never will)....

Peace be upon you.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Today this comment seems incompatible with "God Is All That Is". Your input would be appreciated. I think I still have not grasped this concept (and hesitantly think I may never will)....

Peace be upon you.
I am still formulating a response to post 11, so you patience is appreciated, lol. I do appreciate your effort so far, Ghostaka.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Lol, getting really busy really fast, coupled with my tendency to procrastinate made me leave this one for &#8216;a while&#8217;! And now I&#8217;m sitting here trying to understand your conveyance (Oh &#8216;twas the w-e-e-k-e-n-d as well; a while ago :facepalm:).
Understood. I too have been very busy of late. My stone and cement bench is coming along beautifully and is nearing completion. I give it another month and it will be finished. Likewise I have been up in the trees trimming offending branches with an eye to the winds of fall and winter. (We are surrounded by a few hundred trees, each over 100 feet tall. I am removing the "widow makers".) I am also refinishing a property sign by removing my Dad's name as he has been dead for 3 years now and refinishing it to a splendid luster. It is about 6' x 2' by 4 inches and had some dry rot I am dealing with. *sigh*

Likewise I have been refinishing two pieces of furniture that have been a royal pain to do. I swear the original finish(es) were welded on. Add to this that I want to make my posts as clear and as intelligible as possible and it does tend to slow our conversation down a tad. Please don't mistake my absence for a few days as a lack of interest. Most likely, I am forming a reply that I think your considered posts are worthy of. ...and now I have to run...
 

Ghostaka

Active Member
Add to this that I want to make my posts as clear and as intelligible as possible and it does tend to slow our conversation down a tad. Please don't mistake my absence for a few days as a lack of interest. Most likely, I am forming a reply that I think your considered posts are worthy of. ...and now I have to run...
Take your sweet time yo'! Busy time for the both of us since we've got lives surprisingly... :D Quick question, does this 'island paradise' you live in have a name?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Ghostaka said:
Ah quite interesting! Not trying to do a psych-analysis here: Does the extension of the statement mean that everything is equal to God? You see I’m trying to understand whether you feel it is necessary to differentiate (or not) the Creator from creation.
No. The statement is meant to be taken at face value. If I meant everything was equal, I would just say so. Diversity or “the parts that comprise the whole” are equal in the sense that all parts are parts. The idea that the parts are equal to the whole is wholly illogical. To cap this aspect, “The whole is greater than the sum of all the parts combined; however that is not meant to minimize the inherent uniqueness and essential qualities of said parts. Said parts are relative aspects of the whole, like miniature representatives of the whole, but can never be the totality of the whole. I hope that makes some sense to you.

If that doesn’t explain things sufficiently, feel free to ask questions.

Ghostaka said:
I don’t think I am foreign to multidimensional(-ism?) my good friend. As I’m sure you are aware, we Muslims believe that Jinn (beings that had free-will first) are on another dimension. The ones that obey God, do not materialize/present themselves to us humans. However the bad ones… (The Arrivals explains it so much better!!) And I’m sure you didn’t mean multidimensional in this sense.
That would be correct and I am not meaning multidimensional in that sense. Generally speaking, I am somewhat dismissive of the concepts of “angels”, “devils” and “jinn”. In my view, reality simply does not function along the lines that make their possibility very probable. I’m not saying that such beings do not exist, but rather, that they are not as advertised in popular myth. I’d like to come back to this topic at a later time though.
Ghostaka said:
I got those when I was in a special mood with mountains of English homework as well! I joke. [DISREGARD ALL PATRONIZING TONES EMANATING FROM MY COMMENTS PLEASE] Paul, was this stream of data about the universe or its origins (or something that you cannot describe on RF)?
I don’t take you as being particularly patronizing, Ghostaka, so no worries from my side. Hopefully you will glean my humor when it hits and take it as intended.
This stream of consciousness was an intellectual crystallization or concretization. Ideas that had been floating around in my brain simply converged with stunning clarity. The heightened state of awareness was not the result of anything I cannot discuss on RF. I was just sitting there watching the rain and voila. As the rain formed pools on the ground, as I watched, ideas in my head simply came together. It was really just a super “aha” moment.
Ghostaka said:
A suggestion not so foreign to my ITGS teacher back in the day.
Haha. You too? Who would have thunk it, eh?
Ghostaka said:
I agree. As for the degrees to the experience, I would say that I’ve had them myself; when I understand something I read in the Qur’an or realize that God is watching me. Okay I doubt I related to the experience in question with a lot of clarity, hope you’ll understand me a little at least.
In actuality, I was talking about a state of consciousness and not necessarily the same type of thing, though what you describe could be a part of it. The difference is that the state of consciousness and the experience derived from that period of expanded awareness is the key. Reading a passage from the Qur’an could generate such an experience but likewise, so could looking at the smile of a child or smelling the sweetness of a flower.
Ghostaka said:
These greater experiences I would term, from God. But I would associate them with a person that gets the sudden urge to look for their Creator i.e. rifling through religions of the world in search for some answers to why they exist.
I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Curiously, it was almost the opposite for me. I was your basic headstrong atheist who suddenly had a remarkable experience that was not focused in the world I was accustom to. That experience resulted in my examination of many religious texts from several different religions. The odd part is that I wasn’t looking for answers. I was looking for confirmation that others had experienced the same or similar type of thing.

After some searching, and after pretty well leaving the Abrahamic faiths in the rejected category, I found what I was looking for, first in the Bardo Thodol or The Tibetan Book of the Dead. I found descriptions that mirrored exactly some of my perceptions… so I realized I wasn’t alone in my experience. Again, I wasn’t looking for answers; I was looking for confirmation, as I already had many answers to questions I hadn’t really even thought about prior to the event. Some of those answers were:

1.Personality (or individuality or “I”-ness) exists independently from the physical body.
2.Personality (or individuality or “I”-ness) survives the physical death of said body.
3.Time is much more flexible than our physical senses allow us to perceive.
4.The “soul” is not something you have; it is what “you” are.
5. I exist solely to gain experience from my own unique perspective which is added to the whole. Just like it is with every other part of All That Is.

The Qur’an Al-Baqara : 74 said:
Thenceforth were your hearts hardened: They became like a rock and even worse in hardness. For among rocks there are some from which rivers gush forth; others there are which when split asunder send forth water; and others which sink for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
An interesting passage, but one designed for an ignorant audience, to be sure. Water does not spring from rocks, though water can break rocks. Change erodes seeming permanence. Likewise I doubt very much that a rock feels anything, let alone fear. I suppose the passage is trying to say that even the hardest resolve will eventually wear down. If taken metaphorically the sinking in fear, albeit a tad lame, could mean that resolve to the contrary of reality will sink under its own weight. I do have a rather different take on “And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do”, but I don’t wish to get into that at this particular point.

Ghostaka said:
By “within God”, do you mean in awareness or capability? As you pointed out earlier, I am relating some ‘stuffs’, naturally (or something similar to this effect).
Both are part of it. Exactly what part of “everything exists within what god is”, don’t you think the statement includes? It is meant literally. To break this down, All That Is is God. All that exists is God. Nothing exists outside of this framework, nothing. In those terms, everything is a manifestation of god, though none are the totality of what all the combined parts is.

Ghostaka said:
I respect that, and believe that everyone has the right to think of "possibilities". But time 'does' run out. Whether it be our lifespan or the Earth's. In my opinion, if you use open-minded judgment and compare the faiths of this world, you would eventually arrive at one that (I’ll say) seems to be the right one; which is only achieved through guidance from the One and Only.
But this is simply subjective perception, Ghostaka. If you mean it in the sense of being “guided” by the inner self, rather than an externalized “god” then I will give tacit agreement.

Based on my experience, the god that many imagine simply does not exist. What is not understood is the role the “inner self” or your “larger identity” plays in such things. Religion tends to designate this “inner self” as being the “soul”, though I much prefer the term “entity” due to the unnecessary religious connotations ascribed to the term “soul”. Again, based on my perspective and direct experience, the soul is not something you possess, it is your primary identity. The kick in the head for most religious types is that it is the soul that responds to your prayers to “god” as that singular god does not exist. What most human animals assume is coming from “god” is actually coming from the “soul” or your larger, primary identity. To clearly understand my working model of "god" you first have to have a clear understanding and relationship with the inner self or your "larger identity".

Forgive me, but I am still sorting out the final question, lol.
 

Ghostaka

Active Member
Sup Paul!? Long time no... umm.. RF. Doesn't it bother you when you've finished something but just cannot present it!? Well that's the story of my --past few days lol. :help:
 

Ghostaka

Active Member
Since its Ramadhan and the most malevolent devils are locked away; it&#8217;ll be a good chance for me to see how you really think Paul! :D
No. The statement is meant to be taken at face value. If I meant everything was equal, I would just say so. Diversity or &#8220;the parts that comprise the whole&#8221; are equal in the sense that all parts are parts. The idea that the parts are equal to the whole is wholly illogical. To cap this aspect, &#8220;The whole is greater than the sum of all the parts combined; however that is not meant to minimize the inherent uniqueness and essential qualities of said parts. Said parts are relative aspects of the whole, like miniature representatives of the whole, but can never be the totality of the whole. I hope that makes some sense to you. If that doesn&#8217;t explain things sufficiently, feel free to ask questions.
fo&#8217;Show that makes sense, since that's exactly the point in Islam (although it does not coincide with your concept of God). Being that the Creator is greater than the creation and (additionally, and perhaps uniquely?) He does not need them to exist.
That would be correct and I am not meaning multidimensional in that sense. Generally speaking, I am somewhat dismissive of the concepts of &#8220;angels&#8221;, &#8220;devils&#8221; and &#8220;jinn&#8221;. In my view, reality simply does not function along the lines that make their possibility very probable. I&#8217;m not saying that such beings do not exist, but rather, that they are not as advertised in popular myth. I&#8217;d like to come back to this topic at a later time though.
But you see, we believe that we are confined in this world (because we are not allowed to see them) and Allah and His creation that are unseen to us are reality instead. But as you&#8217;ve rightly acknowledged, they cannot be deemed as non existent. Sure no problem, I look forward to revisiting the topic :).
I don&#8217;t take you as being particularly patronizing, Ghostaka, so no worries from my side. Hopefully you will glean my humor when it hits and take it as intended.
Well that's sorted then.
I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Curiously, it was almost the opposite for me. I was your basic headstrong atheist who suddenly had a remarkable experience that was not focused in the world I was accustom to. That experience resulted in my examination of many religious texts from several different religions. The odd part is that I wasn&#8217;t looking for answers. I was looking for confirmation that others had experienced the same or similar type of thing.
That&#8217;s all good, but I can&#8217;t imagine that that would be the end of your quest&#8230;
Reading a passage from the Qur&#8217;an could generate such an experience but likewise, so could looking at the smile of a child or smelling the sweetness of a flower.
Ah but don't they remind you of Al-Musawwir (The Bestower of form, The Shaper) a.k.a. Allah? :D [Well they do for believers in God at least]
After some searching, and after pretty well leaving the Abrahamic faiths in the rejected category, I found what I was looking for, first in the Bardo Thodol or The Tibetan Book of the Dead. I found descriptions that mirrored exactly some of my perceptions&#8230; so I realized I wasn&#8217;t alone in my experience. Again, I wasn&#8217;t looking for answers; I was looking for confirmation, as I already had many answers to questions I hadn&#8217;t really even thought about prior to the event. Some of those answers were:

1.Personality (or individuality or &#8220;I&#8221;-ness) exists independently from the physical body.
2.Personality (or individuality or &#8220;I&#8221;-ness) survives the physical death of said body.
3.Time is much more flexible than our physical senses allow us to perceive.
4.The &#8220;soul&#8221; is not something you have; it is what &#8220;you&#8221; are.
5. I exist solely to gain experience from my own unique perspective which is added to the whole. Just like it is with every other part of All That Is.
Agreed upon since it is the same in Islam except for number five. What do you assume/believe will happen to your &#8220;&#8216;I&#8217;-ness&#8221;/larger identity when you die? (Reference to number two)
An interesting passage, but one designed for an ignorant audience, to be sure. Water does not spring from rocks, though water can break rocks. Change erodes seeming permanence.
The said part of the verse, refers to the disbelief of the Jews in their Creator even after they witnessed the favors/miracles (which are referred to in the verses before).
Likewise I doubt very much that a rock feels anything, let alone fear. I suppose the passage is trying to say that even the hardest resolve will eventually wear down. If taken metaphorically the sinking in fear, albeit a tad lame, could mean that resolve to the contrary of reality will sink under its own weight.
Haven't you read of the 'certain Degree of Awareness' possessed by 'Solid Inanimate Objects' referred to in the Qur'an ;)? The explanation being that Allah creates this characteristic - humbleness - in stones/objects. For instance, Allah says:
The Holy Qur'an said:
33:72 {Truly, We did offer Al-Amanah (the trust) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they declined to bear it and were afraid of it (i.e. afraid of Allah's torment}
55:6 {And the stars and the trees both prostrate themselves (to Allah)}
16:48 {Have they not observed the things that Allah has created: (how) their shadows incline}
59:21 {Had We sent down this Qur&#8217;an on a mountain}
41:21 {And they will say to their skins, &#8220;Why do you testify against us?&#8221; They will say: &#8220;Allah has caused us to speak.&#8221;}
Well, from this we can say that the aforementioned sinking of stones means &#8220;some stones are softer than your hearts, they acknowledge the truth that you are being called to&#8221; in reference to the Children of Israel. <<< Can be considered universal as well lol ;)
To break this down, All That Is is God. All that exists is God. Nothing exists outside of this framework, nothing. In those terms, everything is a manifestation of god, though none are the totality of what all the combined parts is.
Again, this seems to be Allah here. I say this because this is stressed a multitude of times in the Qur'an. That being, Allah telling humankind to look at their surroundings and realize that Allah's Sustenance, Magnificence and Might (among a lot of others) is observed within and around them.
Based on my experience, the god that many imagine simply does not exist. What is not understood is the role the &#8220;inner self&#8221; or your &#8220;larger identity&#8221; plays in such things. Religion tends to designate this &#8220;inner self&#8221; as being the &#8220;soul&#8221;, though I much prefer the term &#8220;entity&#8221; due to the unnecessary religious connotations ascribed to the term &#8220;soul&#8221;. Again, based on my perspective and direct experience, the soul is not something you possess, it is your primary identity. The kick in the head for most religious types is that it is the soul that responds to your prayers to &#8220;god&#8221; as that singular god does not exist. What most human animals assume is coming from &#8220;god&#8221; is actually coming from the &#8220;soul&#8221; or your larger, primary identity. To clearly understand my working model of "god" you first have to have a clear understanding and relationship with the inner self or your "larger identity".
Oh I see what you mean and I see the difference as well. Butz before we move on I require some clarification: By &#8220;responds to your prayers&#8221; are you referring to the feeling some people get when they supplicate/ask singular God for something? Because at the moment, I would highlight that supplicating is between the soul and God. Since it is the soul/inner self and its intentions that we say Allah can see into.

A super (and perhaps complex) question:
In reference to your mention of the Abrahamic religions earlier, what would be your main reason to arrive at the conclusion that Allah doesn&#8217;t exist?
Forgive me, but I am still sorting out the final question, lol.
I&#8217;ve most definitely added to the pending list lol. Sorry!

Peace be upon you.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My apologies for taking so long to reply, but I wanted to make sure I got my answer "just right". Aside from this I now have another layer of rock on my beloved bench, a refinished sign out front of the property and two freshly painted sundecks.

Today, while I was working with concrete and stones I had two small fawns run up and stop on a dime not four feet away, probably wondering what the heck I was doing down on the ground at their level, lol. They were with me for about 3 minutes and then cantered off down the path. A few minutes later their mom trotted by and then sat down on the path I re-cleared yesterday (about 25 feet away) watching me whilst nibbling some nearby plants. (It's a tough life, here, in paradise.)


Ghostaka said:
Ah Paul, I still, don't understand how of all (shall I term) "atheists" on RF, you can believe that prophets were not sent by God, given your experience. I mean I would equate revelations sent to prophets as being ‘enormous experiences’; that if true, would show no signs of attempted fame and fortune. Which I think matches those of Mose, Jesus and Muhammad (PBUT)... but that’s just me.

I understand what you are saying, Ghostaka. What may be difficult to comprehend is that I do not believe in so-called “revelation”, per se. In light of my own experience I have, on occasion, quipped that my former self was directly influenced by my (then still potential) “future” self or the self I later became. Try to imagine memory working in reverse here…

In my view I have had these unexpected and unsought experiences because I had gone through them many times “before”. For example, one of my first sensations was how I felt what I perceived was so very familiar. It was like remembering something that had been forgotten, only to sit wondering how I could possibly have forgotten.

In a sense, it was a “revelation” to the 18 year old Paul, but borne of that “revelation” was the knowledge that it was more accurately described as a realization of how reality functions at very basic levels - a levels where subject and object delineations no longer exist.

Why I distance myself from the so-called “prophets” is that I have become incredibly wary of people who claim to have detailed “revelations” and consequently presume to speak for God. Wherever I hear people talking about so-called 'revelations' warning flags instantly come up because I know that the person or related event is not being entirely truthful -- regardless of the nature of the so-called 'revelation'.. By and large, the average human animal simply assumes that these experiences cannot possibly originate from within themselves and therefore precipitate highly elaborate backdrops in order to maintain their fragile sense of sanity.

Such individuals refuse to acknowledge the reality of their Oneness and so create a perception of “other” to conform to their belief systems. This neatly fills the holes in their understanding and their imaginations shore up the rest. In essence, their encounters are self-created hallucinations. Add to this the certainty that accompanies such experiences, bearing in mind that this certainty is because the individual sees reality conform to their existing thinking. This “feature” tends to erase doubt -- even doubt this is quite healthy for continued spiritual, emotional and mental stability.


Even if one’s viewpoints and deductions are incorrect, one will quite naturally assume what they perceive IS REAL. I am certainly no exception to this, but it did take a very long time to understand this phenomena. The reason for all this is to ensure mental equilibrium and that is how distortions creep in to such experiences. What is seldom grasped by “prophets” is that they tend to confuse the window dressing of their own making with the reality that creates said window dressing. Without skipping a beat, they merrily run off telling the first person they meet what they have “seen”. For the most part, this is not a very wise undertaking at that point.

Again, this confusion is brought about by the intersection of ones existing belief structures in light of the experience of Oneness and those who perceive a singular being tend to assume that being is God. This might sound like an obscure point, but when the perception of subject and object emerges the actual experience of Oneness is no longer in clear focus.

What many fail to appreciate is their own place in the Oneness of All That Is -- often because they believe themselves to be unworthy. In essence, it is their own sense of unworthiness that creates the disconnect and precipitates the sensation of subject and object. Part of the reason for this is in how the mind insulates itself from direct perception that are not compatible with existing belief structures. In contrast to ordinary experience, visionary experience is seemingly perfect, or so it seems – at first.

As my friends ZenZero and Ben D will happily tell you, the problems begin as the conceptual concretion process begins. This
concretion process necessarily reflects the existing belief structures of the individual doing the processing. In essence, existing belief structures are superimposed on an aspect of reality that naturally molds itself to any kind of belief structures held. This is especially true for those who have very rigid belief structures that reality must conform to before they will take the raw data seriously.

In closing, I do not put Christ in the same category as the legendary Moses or Muhammad. From my standpoint, the Christ is an especially rare bird. Such an individual has come to our world a few times in the past and was known as Krsna, Buddha and Jesus. These beings reflect the pinnacle of consciousness and are symbolic of the same inherent trait found within all beings but exist in an unconscious or dormant state. They are symbols, dwelling in flesh and bone, of the inner self that resides within all beings and form the foundations of personality as we know it. In a sense, their role is always to show us both who and what we are.

The acknowledged downside to this is the legends and misunderstandings that follow such beings around as closely as their shadows. Our historical records of their lives and comments are highly structured dogmatic forms that often ascribe a false sense of divinity to them.
Since the people of their times implicitly believed in divinity, in turn, they remember these beings in those terms as it is the only way they can relate to them due to their inability to see their own radiant reality buried deeply within themselves. Moses and Muhammad are just not in the same league, imho, of course.

 
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