Gender Sex

[standing_alone]

Often people use the words gender and sex interchangably. I don't think they are so interchangable and here's my reasoning (it's the reasoning of others as well, but I'm just pointing out it's an opinion):

To me "sex" is the actual sexual gentitalia that a person is born with. Someone can be born with with the female genitalia or someone can be born with the male genitalia. I'm not even going to go into intersexed people (at least yet anyways, maybe further on if this becomes a big debate), since that gets complicated.

To me "gender" is the "sex" that someone personally identifies with. So, for instance, someone's "sex" can be male while this person's "gender" is female. This person can be born with male genitalia, but they identify more with the "gender roles" of someone born with female genitalia.

To me, "sex" is "biological" while "gender" is "psychological." Since I have no reason if those are the correct terms I want to apply, I will restate it: "Sex" is physical - it's the sexual genitalia that one is born with. "Gender" is more in the mind - a person identifies with the "gender roles" (something that is society/cultrual defined) of a certain "sex."

So someone's "sex" and "gender" can be the same or someone's "sex" and "gender" can be different.

Forgive me for making a thread on this - I did it more so since I have to write a literary analysis paper based on queer theory and this is one of the things I'm covering, so I wanted to set it all "straight" in my mind (basically since I should be writing my paper now instead of being on RF ).

So what are your thoughts on this? Are "sex" and "gender" interchangable terms? Or are "sex" and "gender" completely different? Am I just a crazy fool that hasn't a clue what she's talking about?

 

[Scuba Pete]

For probably 99%+ of the world's population, the two are interchangeable. Possibly more, but I am not fomiliar with any studies that show that type of demographic. I am not into making rules that center around "exceptions" rather than the "rule".

 

[Valjean]

Gender is a linguistics term for a certain type of noun-class. It is a technical, scientific term. Languages may have genders such as high, medium and low status; animate and inanimate; man-made, domestic or wild, and many others.

English is perhaps unique among Indo-European languages in having linguistic genders that correspond to the sex of the referent. It is this quirk that has allowed people, in recent decades, to misapply the term as a euphemism for "sex."

Why we should feel the need for a euphemism in this open and enlightened age is another question.
During the "repressed" 40s and 50s when you needed to express the idea of sex, you just screwed up your courage, took a deep breath, and said "sex."

 

[Buttercup]

I guess we need to define the parameters of what you will accept as reasonable explanations for either side first.

The dictionary for example has noun and verb definitions for sex and gender.

And I think it depends on the sentence structure. I you are talking about a transsexual person...I will understand what you mean when you use the word "gender identified."

The use of gender for expressing male or female seems to be a newer practice. I don't remember it being used much even 10 years ago.

But, to me either one is fine. I know whenever I fill out a form or application, the box usually asks what sex you are, not gender.

There's my ramblings on the subject.

 

[standing_alone]

Gender is a linguistics term for a certain type of noun-class.

Uh huh. I'm aware of that. Something that always made German a little more complicated to me.

This is just something we discussed in literary analysis on Thursday night in our response to queer theory and I need to write a paper on. I really am not very enlightened on the topic. But your post is definately helpful, I can use that information in my analysis essay, if you don't mind.

 

[Pah]

Gender and sex are sometimes used synomomously but there is a distinction in the meaning of the two. Sex (male/female) is only determined unambigiously by the relative size of the gamete. Gender is for defining man or woman. The two categories are not identical in all cases.

Chromosonally, determination is mixed. Yesterday, I met a woman with XXY chromosones classified at birth as male and listed so on a driver's licence. Some indiviuals carry 48 and 49 chromosones (48,XXYY - 48, XXXY 49,XXXXY) as opposed to the much more prevelant 46, XY.

It should also be noted that internal and external morphology develop at different times and from different causations in fetal development. There is no guarentee that they agree.

Man/woman is a social construct. Male/female is biological.

 

[Valjean]

For probably 99%+ of the world's population, the two are interchangeable. Possibly more, but I am not fomiliar with any studies that show that type of demographic. I am not into making rules that center around "exceptions" rather than the "rule".

How can this be true when the correspondence only exists in English?
Even in languages such as German, that have genders labeled masculine, feminine and neuter, the genders don't correspond to the sex of the referents.

In languages with genders of long-and-thin, large-heavy and insubstantial... well, the whole thing just goes out the window.

 

[standing_alone]

Pah, thank you for your informative post as well. Those may be great points to add to my paper as well, if you don't mind.

 

[Pah]

For probably 99%+ of the world's population, the two are interchangeable. Possibly more, but I am not fomiliar with any studies that show that type of demographic. I am not into making rules that center around "exceptions" rather than the "rule".

When it comes to law and the OP topic has great applicablity to law, equality and justice demand that the "exception" be accommodated.

Biology requires that any explanation of it accomdates the "exception".

 

[krashlocke]

It's under question. In colloquial usage they are fairly interchangeable, but most modern academic text handles them differently, with sex being limited to biological difference and gender encompassing the appearance, speech, movement, &c that defines your role in society and how you are perceived and what is allowed/expected of you.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. The OP didn't specify a legal rendition, and I for one, am not qualified to render one. Again, for most people, the distinction is moot. I do not know anyone who while being male considers themself a woman, or being female considers themself a man. Feel free to reject that notion, but until I see evidence that such phenomenon is more than a statistical blip I shall be content to assume that the women I meet are female and that the men I meet are male.

Should such be discriminated against? Of course not, and I would lead the charge should any such discrimination based on sexuality/gender occur.

 

[jamaesi]

When asked for gender I've started to say male or writing in neuter. If they want my sex then they darn well better ask for that.

I'm physically female but I'm genderqueer. I love to knit but I also love to play FPS video games. I don't identify with either gender, my gender is neuter.

 

[standing_alone]

I do not know anyone who while being male considers themself a woman, or being female considers themself a man.

The transgendered would be an example of such people:

Transgender is the state of one's identity not matching one's assigned gender, which is usually based on physical/genetic sex, or of falling into multiple categories in terms of gender and sexual identification. Transgender is inclusive of such diverse categories as transvestism, transsexualism, and any other traits and behaviours not typically associated with one's assigned gender.

The definition for transgender person remains in flux, but the most accepted one currently is:
People who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

 

[jamaesi]

Again, for most people, the distinction is moot. I do not know anyone who while being male considers themself a woman, or being female considers themself a man. Feel free to reject that notion, but until I see evidence that such phenomenon is more than a statistical blip I shall be content to assume that the women I meet are female and that the men I meet are male.

Transsexuals?

 

[Jaymes]

If you want to look into gender as a social construct, one book I found that was interesting on the subject was Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America by Will Roscoe. It goes into several genders in Native culture and their roles.

Another interesting source I found was a book in the Opposing Viewpoints series... I think it was called "Male and Female Roles". If you can't find it I can dig up the sources I cited for my paper. It's okay, but more about male and female roles specifically in Western society than the rest of the world, but there is one essay that details a tribe in New Guinea (I believe... I'm drugged up on anti-histamines at the moment, so I might be wrong on that) where the male and female roles are the opposite of Western society's.

The whole "gender means sex!" thing really bugs me, especially when people tell me I'm a woman because I have a uterus and breasts, and that I should just get over it.

 

[standing_alone]

If you can't find it I can dig up the sources I cited for my paper.

That would be terrific if it wouldn't be a burden. You are by no means obligated to, of course. I only have until Tuesday night to write this essay and I haven't even started yet.

 

[standing_alone]

Oh, also, Jensa, are you familiar with Gender Trouble by Judith Butler? My literary analysis professor said it is great.

 

[d.]

To me "sex" is the actual sexual gentitalia that a person is born with.

To me "gender" is the "sex" that someone personally identifies with.

To me, "sex" is "biological" while "gender" is "psychological."

three years ago i would have agreed, but now i'm more inclined towards a butlerian
view - being that gender/sex is basically a product of discourse, including the 'biological' bit. in other words, it's definitely problematic to talk about 'pre-discursive' biology, and virtually impossible to draw the line between 'social' gender and 'actual' gender. so the dichotomy becomes meaningless - i only use the term 'gender' now, with 'gender' defined as thorougly a 'social construct' or 'discourse'.

So what are your thoughts on this? Are "sex" and "gender" interchangable terms? Or are "sex" and "gender" completely different?

i think it's important to remember that there's a difference between the common usage of these words and the 'academic' (queer theory) usage.

 

[d.]

Oh, also, Jensa, are you familiar with Gender Trouble by Judith Butler? My literary analysis professor said it is great.

it is - though butler has a tendency to be very difficult to read at times. it's worth the while though.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The transgendered would be an example of such people:

My question then is: how common is this? The ONLY person that I have ever met who was trans gendered was a prostitute. He was not a "woman" trapped in a man's body, but was merely an opportunist wanting a quick buck. I doubt that he was ever successful; just gross!

So, other than those who want to go into female impersonation, prostitution and the like, just how common IS this phenomenon? Do we have any demographics?