Garner Incident-if you can say "I can't breathe," guess what you can breathe

[Skwim]

Yes, I feel pretty confident in this particular judgement. Watch the video and make your own judgement. Listen to what this man is saying in the moments before the attack (yes, it was an attack). Listen to his tone of voice, look at his body language. This is a man who wanted to be heard. Yes, I feel sure in this evaluation.

And what was he saying? He was repeating "leave me alone" over and over. Moreover, his tone and body language reflected these words perfectly. In essence: "I don't want to cooperate with you."

Yes, note the term "previously". That is not evidence that he was doing this on this occasion.

How convenient that you ignored the other statement entirely.
"A police officer's choke hold on a man being arrested for selling loose cigarettes killed him."
source
Your cherry picking here doesn't speak well of you at all.

btw, I notice that you have still not answered my question. What in your judgement, opinion, imagination, could have been more important than talking to Eric Garner for a while in the attempt to diffuse the situation?

This is an unknown, but just because it's not a known doesn't give one the right to assume there wasn't anything else more important going on. My working assumption is that law enforcement manning is guided by need, none of which would assume that the 3-4 policemen involved would be tied up "a half hour talking to this guy so that they can handle the situation safely" so as to arrest him. Police don't finesse perps into arrest, they take a pro-active approach to get the situation resolved as quickly as possible. Watch Cops or Cops Reloaded on TV and see if any of the police wait until the perp decides he's ready to go with them before they act. They don't. They cuff the guy as soon as they can.

 

[Thief]

The chokehold didn't kill him.

You don't speak after the airway collapses.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The chokehold didn't kill him.

You don't speak after the airway collapses.

It's amazing that you not only know better than the medical examiner, but you can do your diagnoses without examining the body yourself. Are you psychic?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

From an article on the selling-cigarettes-illegally aspect.

"So the City of New York is all out of shape that its 13-dollar-per-pack taxes are not being collected due to the black market for cigarettes that's sprung up due to all of these taxes. So what do they then do? They mandate. They mandate. They call the police commissioner, and they tell him, "You get your members of the force locked and loaded on this. I want people arrested. I want examples made. I want to get these black market cigarettes off the street. I want to get 'em out of town, and anybody selling 'em I want dealt with."
source
So a citation wasn't an option.

Wow, a Rush Limbaugh transcript, that much like can be expected from him, couldn't be further from reality.

The chokehold didn't kill him.

You don't speak after the airway collapses.

You can still speak while the airway is blocked. Fully blocked, no, but partially blocked you can. It's like a severe asthma attack; your airway is very constricted and it is very difficult to breath, but you can still breath and speak, even if it takes great effort.

 

[Thief]

Wow, a Rush Limbaugh transcript, that much like can be expected from him, couldn't be further from reality.


You can still speak while the airway is blocked. Fully blocked, no, but partially blocked you can. It's like a severe asthma attack; your airway is very constricted and it is very difficult to breath, but you can still breath and speak, even if it takes great effort.

Nay.
Speech is complex and you need your breath.

To choke a man to death....hold on til he goes limp.......continue to hold.

There will be no verbal statements during this hold.

 

[Thief]

It's amazing that you not only know better than the medical examiner, but you can do your diagnoses without examining the body yourself. Are you psychic?

Black belt.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Black belt.

In long distance autopsy? I didn't even realize that was a martial art.

BTW: I'm a black belt, too. Since you seem to put a lot of weight in martial arts ranks, I'm sure you'll take it to heart when I tell you that your assessment of what happened makes it seem like you're talking out of your butt.

 

[Thief]

In long distance autopsy? I didn't even realize that was a martial art.

BTW: I'm a black belt, too. Since you seem to put a lot of weight in martial arts ranks, I'm sure you'll take it to heart when I tell you that your assessment of what happened makes it seem like you're talking out of your butt.

Combat/submission style school...no points, no trophies.......don't care.

There are three distinct holdings from behind.
Arm across throat...windpipe is target.
Painful and distracting.....strongly forced will flex the cartilage.
Cartilage will not reshape.
No voice.

Second type....vascular strangle.
Elbow under chin....arteries both side of throat are target.
Some breath might be possible...but not long.
Won't matter as the lack of blood to brain causes a fairly quick shutdown.

Third type....not for discussion.
It kills.

The video shows an attempt to pull down from behind.
You need your shoulders higher up than the target shoulders.
Had the big guy fallen back on his butt....no big deal.
Going forward tightened the hold.

The hold was released, but the stress induced an asthmatic response.

Most unfortunate.
Especially when submission was pending...no matter what.

 

[fantome profane]

Combat/submission style school...no points, no trophies.......don't care.

There are three distinct holdings from behind.
Arm across throat...windpipe is target.
Painful and distracting.....strongly forced will flex the cartilage.
Cartilage will not reshape.
No voice.

Second type....vascular strangle.
Elbow under chin....arteries both side of throat are target.
Some breath might be possible...but not long.
Won't matter as the lack of blood to brain causes a fairly quick shutdown.

Third type....not for discussion.
It kills.

The video shows an attempt to pull down from behind.
You need your shoulders higher up than the target shoulders.
Had the big guy fallen back on his butt....no big deal.
Going forward tightened the hold.

The hold was released, but the stress induced an asthmatic response.

Most unfortunate.
Especially when submission was pending...no matter what.

What you still don't understand is that none of this matters. It makes absolutely no difference legally, or morally whether the choke killed him, or the stress from the choke killed him, or the combination of the stress from the choke and the other police pushing down on his chest. It doesn't matter, they killed him. You are quibbling about the technique they used to kill him.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nay.
Speech is complex and you need your breath.

To choke a man to death....hold on til he goes limp.......continue to hold.

There will be no verbal statements during this hold.

I just realized something. You are expecting someone who is in a state of severe panic and freight to actually be able consciously discern the difference between your airwaves being obstructed and making breathing very difficult, and full blockage in which everything is completely blocked off. How many people can even get it "technically" right in a normal state of mind?

 

[Thief]

I just realized something. You are expecting someone who is in a state of severe panic and freight to actually be able consciously discern the difference between your airwaves being obstructed and making breathing very difficult, and full blockage in which everything is completely blocked off. How many people can even get it "technically" right in a normal state of mind?

I expect you to realize.....stress induces asthma attacks.

He was not in a state of panic.
He knew what he was doing.
The situation was not his to say....he just didn't want to cooperate.

The police won't stop til the cuffs go on.
Resistance is dealt with.

 

[Thief]

What you still don't understand is that none of this matters. It makes absolutely no difference legally, or morally whether the choke killed him, or the stress from the choke killed him, or the combination of the stress from the choke and the other police pushing down on his chest. It doesn't matter, they killed him. You are quibbling about the technique they used to kill him.

Just helping to put responsibility where it belongs.

The police will not make certain the physical health of a resistor.
They will cuff him first.....then .....call for help.