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Freedom and diversity.

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I saw a video about freedom and how some people want to restrict it.

Now I have a stick up my ***, because I am neurodiverse and sometimes it shows, where it shouldn't.

But here is another side to that. And it has nothing to with this site, but rather the ugly side of sane or whatever word you want to use for that.

So here is how it goes in short. We, the sane people, decide, how we all ought to live.

But here it is as a part of a functional overall secular culture. It isn't over, because the idea of sin has moved to the idea of sane. Or if you want it as history. The Western cultural philosophical idea of abstract reasoning with critical thinking leads to some people claiming authority over something they don't have authority over, if you believe in individual freedoms within limits.

Yes, by all means fight absolute claims, but please don't believe that we reach the promised land if we just remove religion.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I saw a video about freedom and how some people want to restrict it.

Now I have a stick up my ***, because I am neurodiverse and sometimes it shows, where it shouldn't.

But here is another side to that. And it has nothing to with this site, but rather the ugly side of sane or whatever word you want to use for that.

So here is how it goes in short. We, the sane people, decide, how we all ought to live.

But here it is as a part of a functional overall secular culture. It isn't over, because the idea of sin has moved to the idea of sane. Or if you want it as history. The Western cultural philosophical idea of abstract reasoning with critical thinking leads to some people claiming authority over something they don't have authority over, if you believe in individual freedoms within limits.

Yes, by all means fight absolute claims, but please don't believe that we reach the promised land if we just remove religion.
Sanity isn't as highly valued as you make it out to be. If we had sanity tests for public office, we wouldn't have the politicians we have.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Well, there is another problem. That would be problematic if you believe in minority rights.
I do. And while I don't think non-members of a minority can truly represent them, we have to make compromises. Children, for example, are widely under-represented in our democracies, but we accept the compromise.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I do. And while I don't think non-members of a minority can truly represent them, we have to make compromises. Children, for example, are widely under-represented in our democracies, but we accept the compromise.

Yeah, I get you. But do I have bodily autonomy to be different to the point where I challenge some people's notion of what is real and all that, as long as I do it within individual rights. Or is it different because of the minority I belong to?
I know you know - All that about being delusional and all the other words similar to that.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I agree. Freedom is to be meant in absolute terms. There are no such terms as normal or sane, especially if they intend to limit this freedom.
Individualistic freedom implies respect towards other millions of other individualistic freedoms, as well.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
There are still plenty of cultural maladies aside from religion.

Also, a person's rights/freedoms should be limited at the point where they would begin to encroach upon other people's rights/freedoms.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Individual freedom is different from minority rights. Individual freedom is designed to allow individuals to have free choices among all the various cultural alternatives, both minority and majority. If I am an individual, I can eat all type of food from all the cultures, to find the best of the best for me.

Minority rights are different in that it force choices down one cultural avenue; particular minority, and then expect others to compensate for the lacks the result, due to the narrow options provided by this narrower culture. You are required to eat and like only your cultural food the best. Something is missing in terms of the needs of the individual to explore.

Let me give a good example. Many of the Indigenous peoples of the USA; American Indians, try to maintain the ancient tribal ways of their ancestors. These ways were optimizes for living off the land in a natural way. Tribal culture is optimized for this since it is self limiting and rarely exceeds the limits of the land. The largest tribal cultures, on record, rarely exceed 500,000 members, after which it wants to divide. The forming of a second chief and tribe, takes pressure off the ecosystem, as one tribe move to new lands..

These same Indigenous minority cultures, through their own cultural choices to maintain the natural ways of their ancestors, places them at a disadvantage relative to the fast paced world of modern culture.

Those who push for minority rights, see this lack and assume that minority rights means to bring these people up to modern standards. They never stop to think that their individual right to choose, is being satisfied by following the ancient way that is not connected to the modern standard. The ancient people got by without cell phones and fancy basketball shoes.

Minority rights is often about rich people lording over others whose cultural choices fall short of the expectations of the self proclaimed over Lords. It takes away the right to choose and learn from your choices. What happens is the young minority child get pulled in two ways and can never optimize either way. This keeps the minority rights scam running, since more need is created due to the supply side distractions.

Not all cultures are optimized for all occasions. Often when immigrants come to new places, their former culture may not be fully suited for the new culture and it will create a short fall. If we give all people individual choices, they can look around and learn what needs to change to make up the difference; assimilation. Learning the host language goes a long way. If they wish to only speak their native tongue, they set themselves up for limitations. The Left will teach in niche languages that limit some minorities to an inner city.

Minority rights, via the emotional appeal to ethnic pride, encourages people to maintain that which will create a deficit, with respect to the main culture. The Over Lords will make up the difference. The idea of ethnic and racial pride is designed to set people up for failure and create the perceived need for Big Government overreach to balance it off what is called injustice. How can a third world culture optimize anyone in the first world, without a prosthetic? One way is more individual choices to branch out to get what you need, not stay the course and the world will change for you.

There are members of Indigenous tribes who changed with the times and used their tribal land to build Gambling Casinos. These people are people and have the freedom and capacity to make new choices that allow them to prosper in both worlds. However, it requires being able to make choices apart from only the minority cultural obligations, which can place them in a hole.

The Black community in the USA has a similar problem. Racism may be part of the problem but it is not the whole story. Blacks too are from ancient tribal cultures. The inner city gangs are tribal in nature and cannot integrate before there is a challenge and split.

Blacks, as a whole, cannot integrate since this is not how tribal cultures work. The Left will preach Black Pride which perpetuates black cultural choices that will fall short of their collective dreams. Minority rights become an obligation, to a political party, who teaches you to stay the course, so there is always need, that they will care for.

If you look at the smaller group of Blacks who tend to become Republican, they practice more individual rights and try to pick and choose the best ways that allow them to optimize in the land of opportunity. However, the Democrats will accuse them they of betraying their racial minority nature; Uncle Tom. But this is not a bad thing, as it was made out to be. Individual choice is about picking and chosen the best of the past, present and future so you can feed yourself and eat in the land of milk and honey.

In this Religious Discussion Forum, there are many topics between two intellectual cultures; science and religion. Often the dividing lines are drawn by both sides, and some are not able to see the other POV, since each culture choses to avoid exposure to the other by these lines in the sand. I like to practice individual rights by leaning from both sides and then trying to merge them into one. This gives me an advantage over handouts; talking points for minority rights.

Individual rights is not easy to practice since it can often make you a tribe of 1 or few. There is security and comfort in the larger herd, but the price is you also have obligations that take away your individuality and right to think outside the tribe. If you deny fulfilling these obligations, you can be placed on the outside perimeter, instead of having any hope to be on the inner circle. But at the perimeter you can see some other choices, to help fill that intellectual need.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Individual freedom is different from minority rights. ...

Yes, that is one cultural view of rights. To me minority rights are rights that defends from the rule of the majority. An individual right is a minority right, because the majority is not supposed to take it way, just because it doesn't suit them.
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I saw a video about freedom and how some people want to restrict it.

Now I have a stick up my ***, because I am neurodiverse and sometimes it shows, where it shouldn't.

But here is another side to that. And it has nothing to with this site, but rather the ugly side of sane or whatever word you want to use for that.

So here is how it goes in short. We, the sane people, decide, how we all ought to live.

But here it is as a part of a functional overall secular culture. It isn't over, because the idea of sin has moved to the idea of sane. Or if you want it as history. The Western cultural philosophical idea of abstract reasoning with critical thinking leads to some people claiming authority over something they don't have authority over, if you believe in individual freedoms within limits.

Yes, by all means fight absolute claims, but please don't believe that we reach the promised land if we just remove religion.

I guess it would all hinge on who the "sane people" are. Perhaps they should require psychological testing in order to vote? People could go in and look at ink blots.

One problem with a democratic system is that it largely depends on the quality of the electorate. If there's not enough smart, sane people, then they get outvoted by those who are not quite so smart or sane, yet more numerous.

As for freedom itself, the term is too vague that it's become a useless slogan. It sounds good, but the devil is in the details and how it's actually practiced in a given society. Another way of looking at it is to cite the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Or there are those who might look at the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and use that as a guideline. As long as we practice those principles, then a reasonable state of freedom can result.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
There are still plenty of cultural maladies aside from religion.

Also, a person's rights/freedoms should be limited at the point where they would begin to encroach upon other people's rights/freedoms.
I agree. I do think there ought to be limits on harassment via what some believe is free speech. For example while I don't agree with the right wing extremists on the Supreme Court I don't think citizens should be allowed to protest outside their homes. I think there should be a right to privacy and security at ones home. This could extend to other forms of protection from protest and speech that causes stress and harm to individuals. Protest at work is fine. At home? No.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I agree. I do think there ought to be limits on harassment via what some believe is free speech. For example while I don't agree with the right wing extremists on the Supreme Court I don't think citizens should be allowed to protest outside their homes. I think there should be a right to privacy and security at ones home. This could extend to other forms of protection from protest and speech that causes stress and harm to individuals. Protest at work is fine. At home? No.

Well, in Denmark we in 2019 made severe psychological harm illegal.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I guess it would all hinge on who the "sane people" are. Perhaps they should require psychological testing in order to vote? People could go in and look at ink blots.

One problem with a democratic system is that it largely depends on the quality of the electorate. If there's not enough smart, sane people, then they get outvoted by those who are not quite so smart or sane, yet more numerous.

As for freedom itself, the term is too vague that it's become a useless slogan. It sounds good, but the devil is in the details and how it's actually practiced in a given society. Another way of looking at it is to cite the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Or there are those who might look at the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and use that as a guideline. As long as we practice those principles, then a reasonable state of freedom can result.
I think the word "sane" is a bit too narrow. I would suggest Emotional Intelligent. Sane people can still have very bad thinking habits and poor judgment, and this all due to a lack of adequate skills to manage emotions and reasoning. It's a case of ignorance leading to poor decisions.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I saw a video about freedom and how some people want to restrict it.

Now I have a stick up my ***, because I am neurodiverse and sometimes it shows, where it shouldn't.

But here is another side to that. And it has nothing to with this site, but rather the ugly side of sane or whatever word you want to use for that.

So here is how it goes in short. We, the sane people, decide, how we all ought to live.

But here it is as a part of a functional overall secular culture. It isn't over, because the idea of sin has moved to the idea of sane. Or if you want it as history. The Western cultural philosophical idea of abstract reasoning with critical thinking leads to some people claiming authority over something they don't have authority over, if you believe in individual freedoms within limits.

Yes, by all means fight absolute claims, but please don't believe that we reach the promised land if we just remove religion.

Actually kind of my pet peeve too. The idea that some elite know-it-all group should dictate the proper "life" for the rest of us.
Assigning lessor moral value...
Assigning lessor intellectual value...
Assigning lessor educational value...

To the the worth of of an individual's opinion about how they should go about their own life.

I may not be the smartest, most moral, most educated person in the room but I think I know how to go about my own pursuit of happiness better than the next guy.
 
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