Free Will

[idav]

Only because you brought them into the picture.

"I do think determinism is wrong and many who study quantum mechanics agree."
​

But you did try to make the point that those in the know,

"many who study quantum mechanics."
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agree that

"determinism is wrong."
​

And so far everything you've presented has been for naught.

Quantum is indeterministic which means so is the beginning of the universe, no where and no when. If the beginnings of the universe, the singularity is indeterministic then ultimately so is everything after. The universe is energy zero meaning nothing changes that, its the fundamental reality beyond perception, nothing can be deterministic in reality only by relative perception, it is all relative.

 

[idav]

This why what I quoted from Hawking puts a damper on determinism in general. There are ramifications.

The paradox results from the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. It suggests that physical information could permanently disappear in a black hole, allowing many physical states to devolve into the same state. This is controversial because it violates a commonly assumed tenet of science—that in principle complete information about a physical system at one point in time should determine its state at any other time.

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Skwim]

Quantum is indeterministic which means so is the beginning of the universe, no where and no when. If the beginnings of the universe, the singularity is indeterministic then ultimately so is everything after. The universe is energy zero meaning nothing changes that, its the fundamental reality beyond perception, nothing can be deterministic in reality only by relative perception, it is all relative.

​

 

[idav]

​

So you dont like the implications, many who study the stuff don't. There still is no concensus on the matter, but there is certainly reasonable doubt against hard determinism and room to take the doubt further.

 

[idav]

Not too long ago I was arguing for a very deterministic view of qm cause it makes sense, I know how it should work but I have been forced to adjust my view in face of general relativity. Nothing in newtonian physics will allow things to be in many places at once, even if it did work that way and newtonian physics still did apply.

My arguments for free will are mechanical based and qm only makes it that much more plausible.

 

[idav]

If I am wrong we will be able to make machines with free will and humans would be the robots. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

 

[Willamena]

If I am wrong we will be able to make machines with free will...

I would put one of those on pre-order.

 

[Sleeppy]

If I am wrong we will be able to make machines with free will and humans would be the robots. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

We are already making machines capable of improvisation. It won't be long before we are able to introduce the level of sophistication required to create machines who believe they are acting freely. Quantum computing will further advance this, regardless of whether the current prevailing theory is deterministic or indeterministic.

 

[Sleeppy]

Not too long ago I was arguing for a very deterministic view of qm cause it makes sense, I know how it should work but I have been forced to adjust my view in face of general relativity. Nothing in newtonian physics will allow things to be in many places at once, even if it did work that way and newtonian physics still did apply.

My arguments for free will are mechanical based and qm only makes it that much more plausible.

Going back and forth about whether QM should be deterministic or indeterministic is pointless.. We'll have to wait, apparently.

 

[idav]

Going back and forth about whether QM should be deterministic or indeterministic is pointless.. We'll have to wait, apparently.

If not for what the quantum computer world has been doing I might remain unconvinced of indeterminism especially now that we have observed it, the collapse or decoherence due to observation no longer holds true. Regardless I love to see the arguments on it, its quite fascinating.

 

[idav]

In case anyone else is interested I found this book helpful on quantum computing and indeterminacy aspects. I am not that much of a math person but was able to follow for the most part. Most times I have to skip those parts lol. I couldn't get the book yet but google shows a pretty decent section.

Quantum Computing Since Democritus - Scott Aaronson - Google Books

 

[Sleeppy]

If not for what the quantum computer world has been doing I might remain unconvinced of indeterminism especially now that we have observed it, the collapse or decoherence due to observation no longer holds true. Regardless I love to see the arguments on it, its quite fascinating.

Check this out.. I don't know enough to be of any real value arguing one way or another.. But it is fascinating even from my limited perspective.

Have We Been Interpreting Quantum Mechanics Wrong This Whole Time? | Science | WIRED

 

[outhouse]

Free will does not exist as far as can be seen. .

You got a facepalm by free will alone.

So that makes you dead wrong.

 

[Skwim]

You got a facepalm by free will alone.

So that makes you dead wrong.

Actually, you couldn't help but make this ↑post.

 

[Thief]

I have freely refrained until this post.
And now post with no one twisting my arm.

Nor do I suffer disembodied voices, or compulsions.

I now post to willfully make a display......I AM!

 

[Curious George]

Really!!!! :cover:


So what kind of achievement do you preform when delighting in a piece of music? As I see it, personal achievement doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the appreciation of new found knowledge, OR in the delight of a new ♬tune.♬

So what? I still have the emotional pleasure of delight.

Control of what? I don't necessarily have to have control over something in order for that something to have significance to me. Do you?

Other than the satisfying sense of personal control it may instill in one, what are these other stakes?

twice I have tried to reply, and it has been deleted by my phone. If you are interested in an in depth response, I will provide one in week when I get back to a computer. But control is a motivating factor, without control there cannot be purpose, intention, or meaning. Control is not just some sense one must satisfy. Control is why we do anything.

Also, the delight in music is different than delight in one's achievement. Feelings are complex. Exploiting the weakness of language is not helpful.

Good day